China Economy: News & Discussion

Daredevil

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How long China is going to carry on this with Charade?. One day or the other it is going to fall flat on its face. ROI on all these constructions by local governments and the Chinese elite must be negative if one goes by the amount of vacancy of constructed apartments. Property bubble will burst sooner than later as it seems no longer sustainable with bank loan capitals being used in most unproductive ways affecting the economy in the long-term.

China's perplexing property boom

By Peter Foster

It is notoriously difficult to get a handle on China's property market – the bears talk about imploding ponzi schemes, while the bulls cite the pace of urbanization and the comparatively low amount of leverage most Chinese have on their properties.

More worrying, say the analysts, is the amount of potentially duff loans that have been dished out to China's local governments which threaten to weaken China's banking system, which is scrambling to recapitalize at the moment.

I came across a particularly spectacular example of local government largesse last week when I was in Linyi, a city of 10m people in Shandong province which is a massive wholesaling centre and was playing host to China's Red Games.

The city's local government is in the midst of a hugely ambitious building programme on the banks of the river that runs through the city.

As usual with these projects, the first thing they seem to have built is a gigantic, vaulted building to house their own ambitions – a kind of museum before the fact – which displays what they hope the city will look like in 10 years time.

Visitors can look at a few token photos from the old days, before peering down on a model of the 'new' city the size of two squash courts, complete with flashing lights and a slit-skirted MC with a headset to tell what's what.

From there you can walk through another model of the city, padding down a virtual river-bed while gleaming skyscrapers rise either side of you until – no overkill here, you understand – you reach a small Imax-style cinema.

Here ambition reaches a new level of ecstasy: whizzy computer-generated images take you sweeping on a birds-eye ride through a cityscape that wouldn't put Shanghai to shame, full of clear blue skies, skimming white birds and happy, smiling children.

Later that day, back in the real the world, we took a drive round the 'new city' to see how much of the dream has become reality.

At the moment the new Linyi is comprised of a kind of Seattle-like space needle construction, a couple of hotels, and a completed office block or two set connected by several wide new roads with only a handful of cars driving along them.

Not quite a ghost city, like Ordos in inner mongolia, but still somewhat eerie, particularly when every intersection seemed to have a traffic policeman in the middle to direct the traffic despite there being perfectly good traffic lights to do the job.

All around along the roadsides, however, were multiple building sites – I counted 33 before I stopped – with the atypical concrete skeletons rising 20 or 30 storeys into the sky, topped by the arms of countless yellow construction cranes.

There are many places like this all over China, so it took me a while to work out what was so different about Linyi's new town's construction, and then it dawned on me: hardly anybody was working on these buildings.

I looked up at the cranes. They were not moving, their cables dangling limply from their beams. I looked at the cage-elevators that run up and down the sides of the buildings sites, but they didn't seem to be moving either.

In about an hour driving round the new city we counted only a handful of workmen. The contrast with your average Beijing building site – alive with the cries of workers, the spark of welders and the general clash and clank of activity – was astonishing.

I checked if it was a holiday in Linyi, but it was not.


As I said at the beginning, it is notoriously difficult to get a handle on China's property market: perhaps all is in order. Perhaps all the salesmen flocking to Linyi's wholesale markets will (as the government's website suggests) soon be in residence in these new buildings.

Perhaps, but from the outside, for now, things looked awfully quiet in the new Linyi.
 

Aruni

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The argument that China's property boom is unsustainable has been around, and has also been made by some notable commentators such as The Economist. The government did, however, try to curb speculative and reckless lending just before the global economic slowdown, however, it had to loosen the purse strings to kick start the economy last year once again. I think occupancy rates are suffering as a result in many cities such as Shanghai and Chengdu where businesses have been priced out of the market.

Having said that, property prices in Mumbai seem to be higher in relation to disposable income than many cities in the West and emerging economies!
 

badguy2000

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The argument that China's property boom is unsustainable has been around, and has also been made by some notable commentators such as The Economist. The government did, however, try to curb speculative and reckless lending just before the global economic slowdown, however, it had to loosen the purse strings to kick start the economy last year once again. I think occupancy rates are suffering as a result in many cities such as Shanghai and Chengdu where businesses have been priced out of the market.

Having said that, property prices in Mumbai seem to be higher in relation to disposable income than many cities in the West and emerging economies!
India's per capital GDP is only less 1/3 of CHina. Indian cities' infrastructure is miles way hehind CHina's ...however,mumbai's house price is much higher than the counterpart in Shanghai......hahah

so.how about bubbles in Mumbai?
 

Daredevil

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India's per capital GDP is only less 1/3 of CHina. Indian cities' infrastructure is miles way hehind CHina's ...however,mumbai's house price is much higher than the counterpart in Shanghai......hahah

so.how about bubbles in Mumbai?
Property prices are very expensive in Mumbai but it is different in one major way from the property prices in China, all the property gets sold in Mumbai unlike China where there are huge number of buildings remaining vacant. That's the difference.
 

Armand2REP

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Chinese Steel production 40% unused capacity
By Bloomberg News - Sep 2, 2010 6:19 AM ET


Power restrictions by local governments in China, the biggest steelmaking nation, may lead to the suspension of 25 million metric tons of annual steel capacity, helping boost prices, Credit Suisse Group AG said.

Disruption to steel production has started as local governments rush to meet year-end power efficiency targets, Trina Chen, a Credit Suisse analyst, said today in a note. The suspended capacity includes a Baosteel Group Corp. blast furnace in Ningbo, she said.

Slowing demand has led about 40 percent of steelmakers in the country to idle plants or put them on maintenance, the China Iron and Steel Association said Aug. 3. China's steel output dropped by 3.9 percent to 51.7 million tons in July from a month ago, posting a five-month low.

The production cuts "should have positive impact on the fourth-quarter steel prices, as it combines with the industry production cut in July-August," Chen said in the report.

Steel prices in China gained 1 percent this week to 4,217 yuan ($619) a ton yesterday. Prices fell 1.9 percent last week, the first drop in six, amid concerns slowing economic growth may curb demand, according to the researcher Beijing Antaike Information Development Co.

Production cuts at steelmakers may hurt demand for iron ore, curbing prices. The 62 percent-iron ore arriving at China's Tianjing Port has dropped 0.8 percent this week to $141.8 a ton yesterday, according to the Steel Index.

Baosteel's Ningbo unit will shut a 2 million ton-a-year furnace for more than three months from Sept. 1 as the city government aims to achieve its energy-saving target, Ningbo Radio reported on its website, citing Huang Ming, deputy head of operation planning at the unit. The plant would lose 180,000 tons of output a month, Huang was cited as saying.

Zhang Wei, a public-relations official at Baosteel, confirmed the report.

Power-Usage Restrictions in China Will Trim Steel Capacity, Boost Prices - Bloomberg
 

tony4562

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Watching indians poking fun at the occasional problems china's economy encounters reminds me of the joke of a hungry man worrying about fat people eating too much food. You don't have those problems only because you have not got there yet!
 

Rage

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Watching indians poking fun at the occasional problems china's economy encounters reminds me of the joke of a hungry man worrying about fat people eating too much food. You don't have those problems only because you have not got there yet!
How are we "poking fun", chongo? We're putting up articles and discussing them.

If you don't like it, shove off.
 

tony4562

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This thread and its counterpart on BR are basically 'bad news about china' threads. If you deny that reading bad news about china makes you happy then you are not very forthcoming.
 

Armand2REP

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India growing faster than China

With China undereporting its inflation by 3%, subtracting that from its real GDP growth puts India ahead.
 

Daredevil

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This thread and its counterpart on BR are basically 'bad news about china' threads. If you deny that reading bad news about china makes you happy then you are not very forthcoming.
Why don't you bring some good news on Chinese economy. We can discuss on those issues as well. You are not prohibited from posting here in any way.
 

tony4562

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Did it ever occur to you guys that it can be somewhat embrassing that the 'chinese economy' thread here and on BR is often more popular than the indian economy thread?
 

Daredevil

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China is going to grapple with one big "over capacity" problem, be it vacant apartments, vacant cities, vacant steel plants and vacant manufacturing facilities, due to appreciation of Chinese currency and increase in the labor wages. Some thing gotta give and that will be China's growth.
 

Rage

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This thread and its counterpart on BR are basically 'bad news about china' threads. If you deny that reading bad news about china makes you happy then you are not very forthcoming.
I don't know if you've got blinkers on your eyes, but ain't nobody shit-talking on this forum.

Besides, we do post and have never stopped anybody from posting, its counterpart, "good news" about China on this forum either.

We post things we're interested in and discuss. If you want this forum to be another Global Times, take the highway.


Did it ever occur to you guys that it can be somewhat embrassing that the 'chinese economy' thread here and on BR is often more popular than the indian economy thread?
And how do you gauge that? By the number of responses?

The number of posts count is driven up by one'rs ike yours and by responses to them like mine.

Don't shit yourself.
 
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tony4562

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Why don't you bring some good news on Chinese economy. We can discuss on those issues as well. You are not prohibited from posting here in any way.
To be honest it is not a good idea, and I am not an antagonist like maybe some other chinese posters who like to throw dirt in your face.
 

tony4562

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India growing faster than China

With China undereporting its inflation by 3%, subtracting that from its real GDP growth puts India ahead.
China currently does not have an inflation problem, india has. And food prices in india in particular are a run-away train, sign of an up-coming famine disaster in the making?
 

Rage

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China currently does not have an inflation problem, india has. And food prices in india in particular are a run-away train, sign of an up-coming famine disaster in the making?
A "famine disaster" in the making will never occur in India, as it has done in China. Too much media uproar, political lynching, recrudesced subsistence farming and far too many political fates depend on it.

Besides, if you did follow some Indian news, as we would expect after having been a member of this forum for so long, you would know that the Supreme Court has directed, nay ordered, the Government to dispense off with any excess foodgrains that exceed capacity to the poor people. And we have a huge excess.
 

Armand2REP

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China currently does not have an inflation problem, india has. And food prices in india in particular are a run-away train, sign of an up-coming famine disaster in the making?
6% is a problem, especially for a country with such a high gini coefficient as China. Chinese have it bottled up so people commit suicide and knife children in daycare. People cannot afford homes even on upper middleclass income, healthcare has even less access. Grain stores are over estimated thanks to corruption. Your real growth is now slower than India.
 
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tony4562

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6% is a problem, especially for a country with such a high gini coefficient as China. Chinese have it bottled up so people commit suicide and knife children in daycare. People cannot afford homes even on upper middleclass income, healthcare has even less access. Grain stores are over estimated thanks to corruption. Your real growth is now slower than India.
In china you can build a comfortable modern house, comparable to ones you would only find in the west, in the countryside for around 100000 RMB- Considering that migrant workers routinesly make 3000 RMB or more a month these days, it is fairly achievable. Who are the ones complaining about high-housing price in china? its the mainly migrant workers (both blue-collar and white-collar) trying to settle in the city far away from their hometowns. These people always have a plan-B unlike the the slum-inhabitants in india, who approached 100 million by last count. And unlike in China, if they choose to go back to the countryside, they will have to brace themselves for sub-sahara like conditions.
 

Rage

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In china you can build a comfortable modern house, comparable to ones you would only find in the west, in the countryside for around 100000 RMB- Considering that migrant workers routinesly make 3000 RMB or more a month these days, it is fairly achievable. Who are the ones complaining about high-housing price in china? its the mainly migrant workers (both blue-collar and white-collar) trying to settle in the city far away from their hometowns. These people always have a plan-B unlike the the slum-inhabitants in india, who approached 100 million by last count. And unlike in China, if they choose to go back to the countryside, they will have to brace themselves for sub-sahara like conditions.
The "slum inhabitants" in India have had air conditioners, refrigerators, gas stoves and in some cases even computers long before modern Chinese "blue collared" workers could even afford them.

Looking at some of the "housing" for lower middle-class workers in Chinese cities leaves me with little doubt that they are any different from the slums in India. Both have cramped living conditions, shared domiciles, many have even shared washrooms. Granted Indian slums may be a lot filthier, but that is the price we pay for unplanned cities- or for planning our cities less early than you did.

In China, when people go "back to the countryside", as millions did because of the tens of thousands of factories that closed in Guangdong during the recession, they face subsistence farming conditions. Perhaps you should open your eyes to that fact and visit the countryside.

By last count, of the UN, 59.1 million of the 132 million people de-slummed in Asia in the last decade alone were from India. We started liberalization and economic growth a decade-n-a-half after you did. Don't cut it when you don't know it.
 

Armand2REP

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In china you can build a comfortable modern house, comparable to ones you would only find in the west, in the countryside for around 100000 RMB- Considering that migrant workers routinesly make 3000 RMB or more a month these days, it is fairly achievable.
You mean the houses CCP demolishes to get people to move to the city? The average price per square metre is 10000RMB. So I guess your house is 10m^2. lol

Who are the ones complaining about high-housing price in china?
The entire middle class, even upper classes. Migrant workers don't even think about buying a house unless their own home was demolished by CCP. The best they can hope for is a cargo container or a hole in the wall. Even middle class are living under bridges.
 

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