China Economy: News & Discussion

[dove]

Some ideas to quickly make india a modern developed nation better than US, UK etc.

1) Use military to enslave your own population. Remove all traces of civil liberties and individual freedom.

2) Control the entire economy via govt dictats.

3) Take all the money deposited by citizens in banks and build jazzy cities and roads and bullet trains.

4) Ensure posh life for 10% of the citizens with govt connections in these walled cities.

5) Make sure the other 90% who do all the dirty manual work stays hidden, oppressed and out of view. Control access to cities so only govt approved people can enter these nice beautiful cities.

6) Spent huge amounts of money on military to threaten the whole world. Put out fake news about secretive weapons systems that will destroy America in a second. Never show proof and explain it as some 5000 year old amazing strategy.

7) Control TV, Newspapers etc and make sure every news that leaves your country is only good news.

8) Control internet so that all your own citizens are not allowed to know about the freedom most of the world enjoyes.

9) Employ 10000 people to post in all internet forums and proclaim India to have become a superpower. Keep posting pictures of said cities and military hardware non-stop as answer to any questions about how the poor people are treated.

10) Explain every stupidity that will cause long term harm to your own country and the entire world as the 'indian way' that no
one else in the world will understand.

11) Keep eyes tightly shut to the inhuman treatment of 90% of your own unfortunate countrymen, ensure any one with a conscience is jailed or re-educated or simply run over by tanks.

In a mere 10 years India will be the second super power.

 

[Rage]

Those are the key words, aren't they?
As of now, India is lagging behind in terms of infrastructure, isn't it? Why were you so pissed off when i pointed it out?

I was not saying India would not be able to build a decent infrastructure in the future, on the contratry i do expect India to catch up with other countries in the term of that as India is investing heavily in infrastructure. So plecase stop throwing what India is gonna be in the next 20 years at me, because we are not talk about the future but the present.

In 20 years, India may have world-class infrastructure which can be compared to Chicgo, New York, San Francisco or what so ever. But i am sorry, i don't buy it. Because right now, on September 19th 2010, India is behind China in the term of infrastructure. If you want to win others' recognition, you need to feed them the accomplishments you have just achieved, not the ones you are going to achieve. We Chinese will give you the credit the day you surpass us.

Yes, China was a rotten shithole thirty years ago, if that is what you want to call it. But we are not anymore. For the last 30 years, we have been working hard to improve it so that no one dares to call China a rotten shithole. So are you gonna call the present China a rotten shithole, too?

That's a drastic tone-down from your previous post.

Since you understand the essence of what I'm talking, that you cannot rely on 'what you see' in the media, on the internet and on chinese cinema or TV to paint a picture of India, because India is not all what you see in the media, but certainly more than it, you cannot attempt to understand India's cities and its infrastructure by comparing it to 'Tier III and tier IV' chinese cities, as your paesaano just did. You chinese rely far too much on what you 'see', while infrastructure has been one of the least impediments to India's growth to date, we have grown rich, despite our potholed roads, our crowded cities and overfull trains. Many people today 'choose' to live in slums, because they pay no rent, even while inside their homes are decorated with lavish ornaments and the latest in devices.

To compare Chinese 'Tier III and IV' cities with Mumbai, based on what you see in 'Google pictures', skyscrapercity or the like, is a blatant lie. Because, we do not have a tradition of fancy photography, colour-editing and pasting our pictures onto websites. We take pictures of the potholed cities outside our homes, of the local office down the street and of the street vendor on the pavement. Cityscape photography is a budding science in India, while it is an art in China.

Besides, for you to assume everything is hunky-dory in China, outside of cities like Shanghai and Beijing is equally fallous. It is not. And we do not board up our shantytowns and our pigstys.

Yes, twenty years from now India will have you watching its gleaming skyscrapers and its extra-large motorways. In the meantime, enjoy your time of triumphalism. Its kinda like the frustration you feel, when the Americans call you third-world riceeaters.

 

[nimo_cn]

We are talking of factory labour here and they are not rich. I don't care to search for the hundreds of reports that show the harsh working conditions and poor wages of these workers.

China may have a few hundred millions (mostly in coastal cities) who are doing well but there are still a billion who are lagging behind. This is not to bash China, it is just a statement of facts. Some people sem to have become too drunk by the recent successes and make boastful and useless claims.

The Chinese reality can be seen in homes as soon as you go out of Beijing and Shanghai main roads and into the outskirts.

Zhejiang village, Beijing.

With regard to factory labor issue or peasant labor issue, no one in this forum has more qualification than me to talk about it, because that is where i come from. Well, i am not saying i am a peasant work, i am refering to my background.

I was born and brought up in countryside, i spent most of my time in village before i got to college. I know everything about the life of Chinese peasant workers because i live with them. People around me are peasant workers or have been peasant workers, including my relatives, my neighbors, my old buddies, etc. I know what China's big cities as well as countryside are like, and more importantly i know it better than you.

Therefore do not lecture me on the harsh working conditions and poor wages they've got, i know exactly what is like. Most of those reoports were written by western medias. The conditions were called harsh and the wages were called poor, because they were compared with the western societies. If Chinese workers have already got what is enjoyed by their counterparts in western countries, China will not be called a developing country.

But we are not comparing China with western countries, are we?

India has its own poverty problem and I am not denying that. Some people just think they can hodwink everyone just because the news of Chinese poverty doesn't make the headlines that Indian poverty does.

There are poverty in every country, only the ones with the worst will be made the headlines.
Chinese poverty does not appear in Indian media only because China has much less poverty than India, not because Indian medias suddenly spare some mercy to China. I know the way how Indina medias report China, if poverty in China is as serious as it is in India, that surely will make the headlines of Indian media.

In terms of 10 times consumption of cars etc., what was your car market 10 years back? All it means is that you have crossed a certain tipping point and India is yet to cross it.

But this culture of crass over consumerism can't be sustained without irrevocable consequences.

Crass over consumerism? You know nothing about how Chinese live their life.

In China, if a man buy a 1 million RMB BMW, that means this man has at least another 5 million RMB in the bank.
Chinese people are fond of saving money before consuming.
What Chinese hate most is spending money that does not belong to themselves.

So there is no crass over consumerism in China, it only exists in your delusion.

 

[nimo_cn]

That's a drastic tone-down from your previous post.

No, there is no tone-down, i am still sticking to my previous contention, which is India has a outdated and underdeveloped infrastructure.

But i don't deny the possibility that can be changed by your people.

Since you understand the essence of what I'm talking, that you cannot rely on 'what you see' in the media, on the internet and on chinese cinema or TV to paint a picture of India, because India is not all what you see in the media, but certainly more than it, you cannot attempt to understand India's cities and its infrastructure by comparing it to 'Tier III and tier IV' chinese cities, as your paesaano just did.

I am sorry i haven't visited India, so i haven't got a chance to personally experience the infrastructure of India.

But in my opinion, infrastructure is what we see. Infrastructure is made of bridges, roads, buildings, museums, airports, train stations, etc, which are what we can see. If someone like is not able to see it personally, we can see it in pictures, that is what we do, isn't it?

You chinese rely far too much on what you 'see',

What is wrong in relying on what we 'see'? At least we don't say something like "there is no freedom in ..." after someone reads some baseless reports which is only full of shitty words.
How do people get the idea that there is no freedom somewhere after reading these reports. Is there some kind of special smell between the words which can only be sensed by Indian? What is the smell of no-freedom?

while infrastructure has been one of the least impediments to India's growth to date, we have grown rich, despite our potholed roads, our crowded cities and overfull trains. Many people today 'choose' to live in slums, because they pay no rent, even while inside their homes are decorated with lavish ornaments and the latest in devices.

There you just acknowledged India has a crappy infrastructure.

To compare Chinese 'Tier III and IV' cities with Mumbai, based on what you see in 'Google pictures', skyscrapercity or the like, is a blatant lie. Because, we do not have a tradition of fancy photography, colour-editing and pasting our pictures onto websites. We take pictures of the potholed cities outside our homes, of the local office down the street and of the street vendor on the pavement. Cityscape photography is a budding science in India, while it is an art in China.

What a lame argument!
According to that, people think India has crappy infrastructure because there are not enough photographers in India, instead of because India actually has crappy infrastructure?

Besides, for you to assume everything is hunky-dory in China, outside of cities like Shanghai and Beijing is equally fallous. It is not. And we do not board up our shantytowns and our pigstys.

I don't assume everything is hunky-dory in China, but i do believe we are better than India.

BTW, i dont live in Beijing and Shanghai. Badguy is right,other than those two, many Chinese cities have better infrastructure than India cities.

Yes, twenty years from now India will have you watching its gleaming skyscrapers and its extra-large motorways. In the meantime, enjoy your time of triumphalism.

yes, that is the point, leave the future to the future when we are discussing the present. Don't mix them together, because it unnecessarily complicates the discussion.

Its kinda like the frustration you feel, when the Americans call you third-world riceeaters.

Trying to quote american to humiliate me, to compensate for your frustraction caused by the fact China is ahead of India?
Grow up, man!

Frustraction i feel? Do you forget that i am talking with an Indian, not an american. As of now you are the one who is tasting frustration.

If americans call us third-world riceeater, what do they call you? Third-world curryeater?

 

[Vinod2070]

With regard to factory labor issue or peasant labor issue, no one in this forum has more qualification than me to talk about it, because that is where i come from. Well, i am not saying i am a peasant work, i am refering to my background.

I was born and brought up in countryside, i spent most of my time in village before i got to college. I know everything about the life of Chinese peasant workers because i live with them. People around me are peasant workers or have been peasant workers, including my relatives, my neighbors, my old buddies, etc. I know what China's big cities as well as countryside are like, and more importantly i know it better than you.

Therefore do not lecture me on the harsh working conditions and poor wages they've got, i know exactly what is like. Most of those reoports were written by western medias. The conditions were called harsh and the wages were called poor, because they were compared with the western societies. If Chinese workers have already got what is enjoyed by their counterparts in western countries, China will not be called a developing country.

But we are not comparing China with western countries, are we?

As I said, my Indian acquaintances have visited China and I have their first hand account of the facts. They speak of the low wages and workers working long hours with no weekly offs etc.

There are poverty in every country, only the ones with the worst will be made the headlines.
Chinese poverty does not appear in Indian media only because China has much less poverty than India, not because Indian medias suddenly spare some mercy to China. I know the way how Indina medias report China, if poverty in China is as serious as it is in India, that surely will make the headlines of Indian media.

It's not about Indian media. Why obsess with India when discussing Chinese issues?

Crass over consumerism? You know nothing about how Chinese live their life.

In China, if a man buy a 1 million RMB BMW, that means this man has at least another 5 million RMB in the bank.
Chinese people are fond of saving money before consuming.
What Chinese hate most is spending money that does not belong to themselves.

So there is no crass over consumerism in China, it only exists in your delusion.

I obviously meant the unsustainable increase in number of vehicles, energy use etc. It is self obvious I think.

 

[SHASH2K2]

As I said, my Indian acquaintances have visited China and I have their first hand account of the facts. They speak of the low wages and workers working long hours with no weekly offs etc.

Vinod you need not go to China to check their working condition. I have a few friends who were part of huawei India at Bangalore. I really felt pain for amount of work they were forced to do . One person was doing job of almost 3 persons. 12-15 hrs min for 6 days and 5-6 hrs at least on sunday. In short they were all Bonded labours.

 

[nimo_cn]

As I said, my Indian acquaintances have visited China and I have their first hand account of the facts. They speak of the low wages and workers working long hours with no weekly offs etc.

What low wage? Low wage compared with whom? Maybe compared with your Indian acquaintances who can afford to travel around the world, it is low wage. But if we compare Chinese workers and Indian workers as a whole, it is not low wage at all.

With regard to long working hours, that is true. You can say the capitalists are exploiting the peasant workers, but i would rather to say Chinese have a hardworking ethicality. And the phenomenon of long working hours is very common in China, it is not confined to peasant workers only.

It's not about Indian media. Why obsess with India when discussing Chinese issues?

It is not just about India media, same thing can be applied to western media.

And you missed the point in the first place by suggesting India seems to be poorer because poverty in India gets more publicity than China. However, the more appropriate way to put it shoud be India's poverty gets more publicity simply because it is worse.

I obviously meant the unsustainable increase in number of vehicles, energy use etc. It is self obvious I think.

That is a problem caused by development, people can afford more cars because they are getting richer. Such a problem just proves Chinese are having better life.
How to solve this problem is a another issue, we are working on it.

 

[badguy2000]

Some ideas to quickly make india a modern developed nation better than US, UK etc.

1) Use military to enslave your own population. Remove all traces of civil liberties and individual freedom.

2) Control the entire economy via govt dictats.

3) Take all the money deposited by citizens in banks and build jazzy cities and roads and bullet trains.

4) Ensure posh life for 10% of the citizens with govt connections in these walled cities.

5) Make sure the other 90% who do all the dirty manual work stays hidden, oppressed and out of view. Control access to cities so only govt approved people can enter these nice beautiful cities.

6) Spent huge amounts of money on military to threaten the whole world. Put out fake news about secretive weapons systems that will destroy America in a second. Never show proof and explain it as some 5000 year old amazing strategy.

7) Control TV, Newspapers etc and make sure every news that leaves your country is only good news.

8) Control internet so that all your own citizens are not allowed to know about the freedom most of the world enjoyes.

9) Employ 10000 people to post in all internet forums and proclaim India to have become a superpower. Keep posting pictures of said cities and military hardware non-stop as answer to any questions about how the poor people are treated.

10) Explain every stupidity that will cause long term harm to your own country and the entire world as the 'indian way' that no
one else in the world will understand.

11) Keep eyes tightly shut to the inhuman treatment of 90% of your own unfortunate countrymen, ensure any one with a conscience is jailed or re-educated or simply run over by tanks.

In a mere 10 years India will be the second super power.

N.Korea is doing so,but everyone knows what happen to N.Korea

 

[badguy2000]

We are talking of factory labour here and they are not rich. I don't care to search for the hundreds of reports that show the harsh working conditions and poor wages of these workers.

China may have a few hundred millions (mostly in coastal cities) who are doing well but there are still a billion who are lagging behind. This is not to bash China, it is just a statement of facts. Some people sem to have become too drunk by the recent successes and make boastful and useless claims.

The Chinese reality can be seen in homes as soon as you go out of Beijing and Shanghai main roads and into the outskirts.

Zhejiang village, Beijing.

India has its own poverty problem and I am not denying that. Some people just think they can hodwink everyone just because the news of Chinese poverty doesn't make the headlines that Indian poverty does.

In terms of 10 times consumption of cars etc., what was your car market 10 years back? All it means is that you have crossed a certain tipping point and India is yet to cross it.

But this culture of crass over consumerism can't be sustained without irrevocable consequences.

well, we are poor. we need more aid...

so, pls shut up before you ask for aid ,investment or fund from CHina....

 

[Vinod2070]

well, we are poor. we need more aid...

Sure. I am sure the Japanese (remember you sucked in their troops in WW-2) are giving you all the aid you need.

so, pls shut up before you ask for aid ,investment or fund from CHina....

lol

 

[navida]

With regard to long working hours, that is true. You can say the capitalists are exploiting the peasant workers, but i would rather to say Chinese have a hardworking ethicality. And the phenomenon of long working hours is very common in China, it is not confined to peasant workers only.

My uncle started a huge textile mill in South India and he visited China to study their model. He said competing with the Chinese companies is tough because they don't face Labour law issues. In India , the people will be up in arms and start a union. Our people will sit on their a$$e$ and do clerical jobs, IT but physical labor is impossible .

 

[Rage]

No, there is no tone-down, i am still sticking to my previous contention, which is India has a outdated and underdeveloped infrastructure.

But i don't deny the possibility that can be changed by your people.

There is. Your argument started with a response to my post, which was a response to somebody else's post. You oughta remember that $hit before you go kamikaze on me.

Now, listen up Paulie. You started with an absolute comment that India "is infamous for its shitty infrastructure", which you garnered from websites like skyscrapercity and Google images, which are the only sources of information about India you have. You call these trash piles "first hand" sources. But you don't know jack. Because we don't post digitally enhance and PS'ed pictures taken about the downtown cores of our cities on skycraper. We post pictures of the roads outside our houses, of the building next to the slum down Ambedkar street and of the road that snakes through our houses to the interstate. We don't board up slums, so that taking pictures of them is near impossible. We go into them, click click and come out with pictures of how people survive and how they make a living. morphed into a compromise about India perhaps being able to build that infra in the years to come. Surely, you understand where you're coming from. If you want pictures of the fabulous highways, the skyscrapers and the shopping malls that also make India, let me know. And I'll give them to you. Otherwise, shut your trap.

I am sorry i haven't visited India, so i haven't got a chance to personally experience the infrastructure of India.

And you never will.

But in my opinion, infrastructure is what we see. Infrastructure is made of bridges, roads, buildings, museums, airports, train stations, etc, which are what we can see. If someone like is not able to see it personally, we can see it in pictures, that is what we do, isn't it?

That's where you're wrong, sonny. Even with the things you see, you can't see them all. And you sure don't see them all. But infrastructure is about more than that. It's about airports, about seaports, about telecommunication lines, about energy plants, about dams and about health care.

Until you open your mind, and see it all. You will always have a unidimensional view about India.

What is wrong in relying on what we 'see'? At least we don't say something like "there is no freedom in ..." after someone reads some baseless reports which is only full of shitty words.
How do people get the idea that there is no freedom somewhere after reading these reports. Is there some kind of special smell between the words which can only be sensed by Indian? What is the smell of no-freedom?

What is "wrong" is that what you see, doesn't cover all there is. Infact, it covers very little of what there is, and it covers only one side of it. 'Baseless reports' full of "shitty words' are actually more credible than myopic opinions formed from 'what you see'. But I wouldn't expect you to know that, now would we?

There you just acknowledged India has a crappy infrastructure.

Shee?

What a lame argument!
According to that, people think India has crappy infrastructure because there are not enough photographers in India, instead of because India actually has crappy infrastructure?

Listen bimbo, according to me, you think that India has only crappy infrastructure because of what you see, which is very limited and will never comprise any salient view of what there is. And is composed of some amateurs taking grainy photos of stock outside their house, in the suburbs and passing it off as their cities.

I don't assume everything is hunky-dory in China, but i do believe we are better than India.

BTW, i dont live in Beijing and Shanghai. Badguy is right,other than those two, many Chinese cities have better infrastructure than India cities.

"Many" is different from Tier III and IV. And your Tier III and IV cities definitely don't have better infrastructure than Mumbai.

yes, that is the point, leave the future to the future when we are discussing the present. Don't mix them together, because it unnecessarily complicates the discussion.

You don't tell me what I can and can not mix, do or act. Got that, goumaad?

Trying to quote american to humiliate me, to compensate for your frustraction caused by the fact China is ahead of India?
Grow up, man!

Frustraction i feel? Do you forget that i am talking with an Indian, not an american. As of now you are the one who is tasting frustration.

If americans call us third-world riceeater, what do they call you? Third-world curryeater?

Are you a fvckin' twit? I'm trying to tell you, that just as you experienced frustration because the americans called you thrid-world rice eaters, swamp rats and the rest, because of their incomplete, inadequate and outdated information about how you live, how you eat and how you act, so too do we experience frustration at the hands of dumb twits like you, that think they know everything about our country from what they see in the 'media'.

Do you understand English, junior?

Or do you need me to give you a lesson in that.

 

[Rage]

My uncle started a huge textile mill in South India and he visited China to study their model. He said competing with the Chinese companies is tough because they don't face Labour law issues. In India , the people will be up in arms and start a union. Our people will sit on their a$$e$ and do clerical jobs, IT but physical labor is impossible .

The Chinese don't face labour law issues?

Your uncle needs an education in chinese economic history, my friend.

 

[navida]

The Chinese don't face labour law issues?

Your uncle needs an education in chinese economic history, my friend.

The people were living in the factory and working day and night. No holidays and minimal breaks. Do you think this could be done with strict labor laws?

 

[Rage]

The people were living in the factory and working day and night. No holidays and minimal breaks. Do you think this could be done with strict labor laws?

I know people living in factories in India and working day and night. Doesn't make that a generalized issue.

You may want to look up something called the All China Federation of Trade Unions.

Labor laws, are in fact, not the consideration. 'Labor laws' in India, where they exist, are regularly flouted. Labor unrest is the question.

Again I say, if you want a picture of historical labor unrest in China, take a course in Chinese economics.

 

[dove]

N.Korea is doing so,but everyone knows what happen to N.Korea

So you don't think this is a good way to run a country ? Surely one would have some nice shiny cities to show off and fool everyone to think we are really developed and modern and civilized ?

 

[badguy2000]

So you don't think this is a good way to run a country ? Surely one would have some nice shiny cities to show off and fool everyone to think we are really developed and modern and civilized ?

case is that we have hundreds of such "nice shiny cities" ,where hundreds of million people live.

Besides, We have thousounds of towns ,which have much better infrastructures than Mumbai.

We know we are still lag behind developed countries, and we are working hard to catch up with them...

But we have enough achievement to pi$$ any bash from India, because we do much better than India.

 

[dove]

That's exactly why I feel India should use Chinese way of development. But the problem is poor people in India are too strong-minded. They are not allowing some of us smart people to take over the country and make it nice for ourselves and our own group members. Idiots don't understand that some sacrifice is needed from the majority so that a minority can become very rich and live in nice cities and then help the others also get rich. They suspect that once we get power and become rich, we will try to keep them poor and keep using them as slave labour to continue our own good lives.

Idiots!! I wish they could all be in internet and see the posts by successful chinese people like you. Otherwise we are doomed to have our nice areas and cities grow only as slowly as the villages and small towns also grow.

I hate this bloody democracy. It is against the nature. Do tigers and lions take a vote before deciding whom to hunt ? Do they become vegetarians just because the deer and rabbits are more in number and voted against carnivores ?

I tell you, These Idiot indian peasants!!!!

 

[tony4562]

That's exactly why I feel India should use Chinese way of development. But the problem is poor people in India are too strong-minded. They are not allowing some of us smart people to take over the country and make it nice for ourselves and our own group members. Idiots don't understand that some sacrifice is needed from the majority so that a minority can become very rich and live in nice cities and then help the others also get rich. They suspect that once we get power and become rich, we will try to keep them poor and keep using them as slave labour to continue our own good lives.

Idiots!! I wish they could all be in internet and see the posts by successful chinese people like you. Otherwise we are doomed to have our nice areas and cities grow only as slowly as the villages and small towns also grow.

I hate this bloody democracy. It is against the nature. Do tigers and lions take a vote before deciding whom to hunt ? Do they become vegetarians just because the deer and rabbits are more in number and voted against carnivores ?

I tell you, These Idiot indian peasants!!!!

The concept of democracy is universally applicable, whether your country is poor or rich, or whether your country is situated in America or Asia. Democracy is a good thing, and as a chinese I'm ashamed that we don't have one yet. However our current system is not as bad as the anti-china media makes it to be. Check out Transparenct International's rankings for curruption, China is actually middle of the road, and consistently ranks several places ahead of India. How can this be? After all democracy is the tool that garantes check & balance of government institutions? All I can say is that democracy didn't fail India, its India who has failed democracy.

 

[badguy2000]

]The concept of democracy is universally applicabl[/B]e, whether your country is poor or rich, or whether your country is situated in America or Asia. Democracy is a good thing, and as a chinese I'm ashamed that we don't have one yet. However our current system is not as bad as the anti-china media makes it to be. Check out Transparenct International's rankings for curruption, China is actually middle of the road, and consistently ranks several places ahead of India. How can this be? After all democracy is the tool that garantes check & balance of government institutions? All I can say is that democracy didn't fail India, its India who has failed democracy.

that is just your personal opinion. pls don't make other Chinese represented by you!

1. I don't think democracy is "unversally applicable. I once thought so as you do too,but now I defy it.
I think that democracy as well as monarchy , oligarchy and dictatorship is just one of many equal options. those options are naturely equal. democracy is not naturely more "moral" than dictatorship or oligarchy.

To common people, the best option is not naturally "democracy",but the one most fit for their national culture ,tradition ,history and national conditions.



2. To CHina, the best option now ,I think, is absolutely not "democracy",but "wise oligarchy".

In fact, current CCP leadship is not perfect, but still better than "democracy".