C-17 Globemaster III (IAF)

[abingdonboy]

Sri Lankan military personnel and their families bought to Officers Training Academy, Chennai via IAF's C-17

Stupid. Make them fly indigo or some other airline.

Using these beasts as taxis for VIP families is an appalling misuse of resources. Not only are you taking precious life out of this small fleet but the per hour cost of a C17 flight is huge.


Fking VVIP culture everywhere.

 

[SajeevJino]

$ 650 mil would have got us 2-3 C 17s ! Never knew follow on supports costs this much. Russians would have been milking us similarly over decades.

Gives an idea of lifecycle costs of equipment.

I think Abingdonby gives clear explanation of why that 650 millions

If you lurk around Military airports think yourself why most of the Russian planes were sitting ducks without having spares

Yesterday 8 of the C17 flown to Kashmir to ferry the troops, you can't see some 5 IL 76 flying like that

 

[Knowitall]

I wish India had brought more c-17 while there was still time. One of the biggest blunders we ever made. We should have a total of around 50 of those atleast.

 

[abingdonboy]

I wish India had brought more c-17 while there was still time. One of the biggest blunders we ever made. We should have a total of around 50 of those atleast.

It was a very unfortunate time to have got on c17 bandwagon as it was the last days of production but even still if India had committed to 20+ units Boeing would’ve delivered. UPA and IAF dithering ensured production ceased and those 9 of those 10 “whitetails” were also taken off the table.

IAF has a projected requirement for 22-30
Of these beasts. Now will only ever get 11 and will have a huge headache in 10 or so years when those 20+ IL-76s start to become u/s.

 

[Tanmay]

It was a very unfortunate time to have got on c17 bandwagon as it was the last days of production but even still if India had committed to 20+ units Boeing would’ve delivered. UPA and IAF dithering ensured production ceased and those 9 of those 10 “whitetails” were also taken off the table.

IAF has a projected requirement for 22-30
Of these beasts. Now will only ever get 11 and will have a huge headache in 10 or so years when those 20+ IL-76s start to become u/s.

There were reports suggesting USAF also wanted extra C-17s. Perhaps we could see the production line being started again if enough Indian and other foreign demand is created.

 

[abingdonboy]

There were reports suggesting USAF also wanted extra C-17s. Perhaps we could see the production line being started again if enough Indian and other foreign demand is created.

Indeed. That is the only hope now. US WOT has pushed their transport fleet far beyond their expected annual cycles meaning their lifespans are likely to
Be reduced quite considerably and a replacement sought sooner which could just be more (new build) C17s. This would be ideal but not sure how soon that can be expected.

 

[uoftotaku]

There were reports suggesting USAF also wanted extra C-17s. Perhaps we could see the production line being started again if enough Indian and other foreign demand is created.

It's quite impossible. Boeing was pitching for additional orders but got none. They then pitched a new variant with a narrower but longer fuselage that too got no interest. After the last bird came out they not only shut down the production line but dismantled the line machinery and have since even sold the Long Beach site (which is the former Douglas Aircraft production center) as they simply did not have any further use for it (the employees there being military contract workers were too expensive to be utilised for civilian work for Boeing Commercial). Furthermore a lot of the components have also gone away, primary being the F-117 engines (P&W P2000 series) which have stopped new production.

If C-17 ever was to be restarted they have stated on record that a min production order of 80 airframes would be needed for a business case to start up a new line at a new location (most likely the existing facilities at Wichita or St Louis)

Sadly for IAF we have to look at alternatives...Kawasaki C-2 might be best available option. Can lift roughly half the payload but would be very useful for carrying the kind of high volume low weight cargo that goes into Leh

 

[Deathstar]

It's quite impossible. Boeing was pitching for additional orders but got none. They then pitched a new variant with a narrower but longer fuselage that too got no interest. After the last bird came out they not only shut down the production line but dismantled the line machinery and have since even sold the Long Beach site (which is the former Douglas Aircraft production center) as they simply did not have any further use for it (the employees there being military contract workers were too expensive to be utilised for civilian work for Boeing Commercial). Furthermore a lot of the components have also gone away, primary being the F-117 engines (P&W P2000 series) which have stopped new production.

If C-17 ever was to be restarted they have stated on record that a min production order of 80 airframes would be needed for a business case to start up a new line at a new location (most likely the existing facilities at Wichita or St Louis)

Sadly for IAF we have to look at alternatives...Kawasaki C-2 might be best available option. Can lift roughly half the payload but would be very useful for carrying the kind of high volume low weight cargo that goes into Leh

We should have bought more when we had the chance, C17 is a beast even C130s are good too
What about alternatives like Airbus 400M or C295?
Also we can try and buy from gulfies when some new toy comes , UAE and Qatar each operate 8 C17s

 

[Suryavanshi]

Indeed. That is the only hope now. US WOT has pushed their transport fleet far beyond their expected annual cycles meaning their lifespans are likely to
Be reduced quite considerably and a replacement sought sooner which could just be more (new build) C17s. This would be ideal but not sure how soon that can be expected.

While we're dreaming of buying C17 China has already started making there Copies ot C 17

 

[nongaddarliberal]

While we're dreaming of buying C17 China has already started making there Copies ot C 17

The Chinese have been far ahead of us in every category of indigenous defence production. Sensible members stopped comparing our military production to theirs a long time ago. The only advantage India has vis a vis China is that we can buy western defence systems that are qualitatively superior to what the Chinese produce. Many members make fun of their J 20 (me too sometimes), without recognizing how big of an achievement it is, and how we're nowhere close to our AMCA.

 

[asianobserve]

10 years into the future the USAF might be flying these blended wing design heavy liftets as it can carry more cargo and more efficient overall.

 

[IndianHawk]

The Chinese have been far ahead of us in every category of indigenous defence production. Sensible members stopped comparing our military production to theirs a long time ago. The only advantage India has vis a vis China is that we can buy western defence systems that are qualitatively superior to what the Chinese produce. Many members make fun of their J 20 (me too sometimes), without recognizing how big of an achievement it is, and how we're nowhere close to our AMCA.

While it's true that Chinese have taken lead but they are not that for ahead. If we examine there most advanced and potent platform like j20 , carriers etc they all have mostly developed within last 10-15 years. And we are trailing china exactly 10-15 years economically.

So we can catch up pretty fast once we sort out domestic manufacturing and streamline defense procurement .

But its true we are simply not as focused and determined as China is . Chinese want to catch up to USA as fast as they can while our priority is to simply keep war away from our borders.

That is why our programs are so small in scale and so slow. Our development will happen organically it will be slower with china but as our domestic weapons chase western quality and reliability they will be far more robust and fight worthy than what Chinese can muster.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Suryavanshi]

The Chinese have been far ahead of us in every category of indigenous defence production. Sensible members stopped comparing our military production to theirs a long time ago. The only advantage India has vis a vis China is that we can buy western defence systems that are qualitatively superior to what the Chinese produce. Many members make fun of their J 20 (me too sometimes), without recognizing how big of an achievement it is, and how we're nowhere close to our AMCA.

Sad state of our industry really.
Deep down we all know chinese are gonna match the same quality as their wetsern counterparts someday.
There Y 20 has capacity of 66 tons while c 17 has 77 tons, this all when their is a cost differnce of 50 million in both planes.
There not really any point of making fun of them now that they have materialised their 5th generations fighter jet. The plane may not be upto western standards but they sure aren't gonna shelve the project after making one prototype, constant improvement will be made.

All their guns are indigenously produced and at this point they are exporting it to African nations.
While we are still struggling with procurement of AKs and SiG saucers.
Everything from optics to helemt is made at home imagine how much money they are saving while fuelling there industry.

All this while our quota chaap OFB fellas go on a strike

Ordnance factory staff to go on month-long strike to protest privatisation
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.hind...isation/story-wiuURkHjk87aWZobTInh4H_amp.html


Its not to late right now. Any industry with decent metallurgical expertise can manufacture guns.
The budgets that we allot to OFB should be awarded to a private firm that can do the job with much more efficiency.

I'm not saying we are gonna manufacture a c 17 on the fly but we need to make a decent start.
NAL is stuck with saras without any hope of materialsiation. HAL is stuck with trainer jets, LCH is making quick strides but the babus want their Natasha and vodka over it. Tejas condition is well know to everyone.
If we can't make the Jet as a whole then take the Tejas approach assign key technologies to private firms. This way private firm can participate and HAL can do their screwdrivery all to their hearts contents. A time will come when a Entity gains enough expertiese to make a whole plane of their own.

 

[Deathstar]

Sad state of our industry really.
Deep down we all know chinese are gonna match the same quality as their wetsern counterparts someday.
There Y 20 has capacity of 66 tons while c 17 has 77 tons, this all when their is a cost differnce of 50 million in both planes.
There not really any point of making fun of them now that they have materialised their 5th generations fighter jet. The plane may not be upto western standards but they sure aren't gonna shelve the project after making one prototype, constant improvement will be made.

All their guns are indigenously produced and at this point they are exporting it to African nations.
While we are still struggling with procurement of AKs and SiG saucers.
Everything from optics to helemt is made at home imagine how much money they are saving while fuelling there industry.

All this while our quota chaap OFB fellas go on a strike

Ordnance factory staff to go on month-long strike to protest privatisation
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.hind...isation/story-wiuURkHjk87aWZobTInh4H_amp.html


Its not to late right now. Any industry with decent metallurgical expertise can manufacture guns.
The budgets that we allot to OFB should be awarded to a private firm that can do the job with much more efficiency.

I'm not saying we are gonna manufacture a c 17 on the fly but we need to make a decent start.
NAL is stuck with saras without any hope of materialsiation. HAL is stuck with trainer jets, LCH is making quick strides but the babus want their Natasha and vodka over it. Tejas condition is well know to everyone.
If we can't make the Jet as a whole then take the Tejas approach assign key technologies to private firms. This way private firm can participate and HAL can do their screwdrivery all to their hearts contents. A time will come when a Entity gains enough expertiese to make a whole plane of their own.

Thats because we are more communist and socialist than the Chinese

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

The Chinese have been far ahead of us in every category of indigenous defence production. Sensible members stopped comparing our military production to theirs a long time ago. The only advantage India has vis a vis China is that we can buy western defence systems that are qualitatively superior to what the Chinese produce. Many members make fun of their J 20 (me too sometimes), without recognizing how big of an achievement it is, and how we're nowhere close to our AMCA.

And yet I as a lurker see guys here put them in the same category as pakistan in terms of military systems.

Even as an indian i feel joy that someone finally said it.

Next i predict the indian public along with guys here will get disillusioned with democracy and human rights and liberalism and finally come to acknowledge that china ways of handling internal threats is way better.just like that I predict many members will be in denial now but will agree later.

I for dont care if india turns fascist,make a deal with the literal devil ,etc or whatever lie our enemies accuse us of if it solves our internal problems.

 

[Narasimh]

We should have bought more when we had the chance, C17 is a beast even C130s are good too
What about alternatives like Airbus 400M or C295?
Also we can try and buy from gulfies when some new toy comes , UAE and Qatar each operate 8 C17s

C295 will be manufactured to replace the H 748. Airbus 400 is prop based so has its limitations when compared to C17s... But If possible and if Japan agrees to sell, we should buy Kawasaki C-2s to complement C-17s

 

[asianobserve]

C295 will be manufactured to replace the H 748. Airbus 400 is prop based so has its limitations when compared to C17s... But If possible and if Japan agrees to sell, we should buy Kawasaki C-2s to complement C-17s

Japanese C-2 I believe is better than A400 overall.

The C-17s can carry the heavier payloads like MBTs, SAM systems, heavy S2S missile systems, C&C structures close to areas of operations while the C-2 will carry other heavy payloads like IFBs, artilleries, trucks, small mobile radars, NASAMS, troops, ammos, other supply.

30 C-2s would be a good number.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

What is the availability rate of our IL 76's. Anyone knows?

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Let's ask japanese to help us build a bigger version of C-2, double the payload.
I know it will take forever to develop it(following tender and stupidity so that CORRUPTION WILL NOT HAPPEN) , but atleast........ a try in right direction.

 

[uoftotaku]

We should have bought more when we had the chance, C17 is a beast even C130s are good too
What about alternatives like Airbus 400M or C295?
Also we can try and buy from gulfies when some new toy comes , UAE and Qatar each operate 8 C17s

There is no direct alternative to the C-17 except the IL-476 and Chinese Y-20 which are close in terms of lift capacity but not in terms of the wide range of operational parameters.

A-400 is far too expensive (costs slightly more than what a new C-17 used to cost) and delivers far too little of its promised capabilities and has absolutely rubbish reliability. As with all the products of the "Euro" defense zone, it is a deeply flawed industrial work share puzzle where preservation and distribution of jobs was more important than bringing the best performing product to the market.

C-295 is a totally different category...more in line with AN-32 replacement. You would need a full sqd of those to lift the same payload as a single C-17

AN-70 would have been a superb addition to the IAF if anyone had bothered to support its development when Antonov was hunting for money. Now its quite impossible given the political situation vis a vis Ukraine and Russia and Antonov themselves have sold their soul to China (guess who helped them design the Y-20?)

C-130J has limitations when it comes to carrying high volume equipment but has undeniable qualities. Here too IAF missed a beat as LM had officially offered to open a local production line (JV with Tata IIRC) if they got an order for at least 40 air frames. If you look at the IAF, CAPF & MOH together they could have easily combined their requirements and come out with a 56-60 air frame block order...but no...everyone insisted on (and still insists) scatter shot orders of 4-6 birds at a time with independent RFQ/Tenders spaced years apart (I understand there are budgetary issues but these can be solved if the forces work together to get real financing structural reform and pursue multi-year procurement planning)

KC-390 was a great option for AN-32 replacement for MTA if our babu's had woken up and did a JV with Brazilian govt but sadly no chance now as EMB is pretty much under unofficial blacklist. Even then, KC-390 looks to be an excellent product for their needs and is a perfect long term C-130 replacement (especially now since Boeing has taken over EMB and they will try to kill of LM)

C-2 presents the best choice for India simply because in my opinion the Japs are always more than willing to work with India on industrial collaboration. All the companies involved in that project have a long history in India and have established industrial partnerships and local production lines...they have experience working here so won't be "deer in the headlights". More importantly the Japs are desperate for export sales and establishing their brand in the world defense market. They will be willing to play ball. The aircraft itself is also a masterpiece of design...can take off from a 900m runway with more payload than a C-130! ...travel at Mach .84 with full payload....the cargo area allows for carrying almost anything in the military inventory short of MBT. The ONLY foreseeable problem would be a US ITAR veto since it uses GE CF-6 engines but heck..if you don't ask the question then you won't know the answer.