BrahMos Cruise Missile

ice berg

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Re: New Brahmos Missile range 500kms

Shame dont know there own tests, Story came out from Chinese forums and told by a MOD in Chinese forum in MP.net..

Ask him..
So you get your stories from chinese BBS? ROFL. I see no reason to even comment that.

I stand by my assesment. There are no open source about the extent of tests China conducted with DF-21d.

Anything besides its range is pure speculation. Let us stick to facts. Better admitting you dont know that making up stories.

And why will someone be ashamed not knowing classified sources. I pay no attention to internet rumours.
 

Defcon 1

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

A range of above 300Km is a waste of time for an Anti-ship missile. Even 300 Km is a lot. The closer you take the shot without being detected, the better are your chances at hitting the ship. Any farther and the missile can be tracked and taken out early.

It is very difficult to keep track of a ship at such distances and even more difficult to identify a military ship with only radar. You can make mistakes and end up sinking a civilian ship.

Now we can go for subsonic missiles with a decent range for ASuW. That's more realistic.
Anti sub missiles are around 20 km in range, not 500. Also Brahmos will have to undergo high modification to be converted into a Anti sub weapon.
 

p2prada

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

Anti sub missiles are around 20 km in range, not 500. Also Brahmos will have to undergo high modification to be converted into a Anti sub weapon.
ASuW is Anti surface warfare. That means using Anti-ship missiles and LACM against water and land targets. The long range missile can double up as a AShM and a LACM like what USN is planning for the subsonic LRASM-A with a range between 1000 to 1500Km. I was giving the example of LRASM-A in my earlier post.

ASW is Anti-submarine warfare.

AAW is Anti-air warfare.
 

Defcon 1

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

ASuW is Anti surface warfare. That means using Anti-ship missiles and LACM against water and land targets. The long range missile can double up as a AShM and a LACM like what USN is planning for the subsonic LRASM-A with a range between 1000 to 1500Km. I was giving the example of LRASM-A in my earlier post.

ASW is Anti-submarine warfare.

AAW is Anti-air warfare.
But you just said that it is difficult to hit ships from a long distance. Whats the point of a long range, subsonic missile for that purpose?
 

p2prada

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

But you just said that it is difficult to hit ships from a long distance. Whats the point of a long range, subsonic missile for that purpose?
Stealthy approach. A long range supersonic launch can be picked up at a very long distance. A subsonic missile, not so easy.

A Brahmos from 300-500Km would mean a very early detection compared to a subsonic missile.

The Brahmos missile and a missile like Harpoon follow different philosophies. Brahmos is dependent on it's speed and ability to hit the enemy before it can be stopped. Harpoon depends on stealth and being unseen until it is too late.

Brahmos is easier to detect and track, but harder to shoot down. Harpoon is harder to detect and track but easier to shoot down.

So, a long range missile will need stealth to work, or it will be taken out by aircraft or other ships before reaching the target.

Brahmos is like a wailing banshee, goes screaming towards the target. Harpoon is like a silent hitman, taking it's own time to make the kill.
 

Kunal Biswas

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

Some good In formations regarding stealth of PJ-10..



PJ-10 is not only stealthy design but also it speed act as a supplement to its lethality..

PJ-10 also employ ECM against possible jammers and detection devices..

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Regarding Long Range Anti- Ship Cruise Missiles..

RGM/UGM-109B TASM

The RGM/UGM-109B Tomahawk Anti-Ship Missile (TASM) is an intermediate-range, ship- and submarine-launched, turbofan-powered, single-warhead cruise missile developed and manufactured by the United States. Tomahawk missiles operate at extremely low altitudes at subsonic speeds, and fly in an evasive flight-path using an array of guidance systems.Guidance is provided by an inertial navigation system (INS) with an active radar seeker for terminal guidance. The missile is powered by a solid propellant boost motor and a turbofan engine, and is programmed to fly at low altitudes, from 100 m for long range missions to 15 m for short range missions. The missile has a range of 450 km, an accuracy of 30 to 185 m circular error probability (CEP), and carries a 454 kg high explosive warhead.The RGM/UGM-109B TASM can be deployed on "Sea Wolf," "Sturgeon," "Los Angeles," and "Narwhal" class submarines; on "Virginia" and "Ticonderoga" class cruisers; and "Raleigh Burke" and "Prance" class destroyers.
Source : Jane's Strategic Weapons Systems, Issue 50, ed. Duncan Lennox, (Surrey: Jane's Information Group, January 2009) 204-208.

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To above details, The updated PJ-10 have similar guidance with duel global positioning system ( Link Posted in First Page ), In theory it can be use for Anti-Ship purpose to 500kms..
 

Defcon 1

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

Stealthy approach. A long range supersonic launch can be picked up at a very long distance. A subsonic missile, not so easy.

A Brahmos from 300-500Km would mean a very early detection compared to a subsonic missile.

The Brahmos missile and a missile like Harpoon follow different philosophies. Brahmos is dependent on it's speed and ability to hit the enemy before it can be stopped. Harpoon depends on stealth and being unseen until it is too late.

Brahmos is easier to detect and track, but harder to shoot down. Harpoon is harder to detect and track but easier to shoot down.

So, a long range missile will need stealth to work, or it will be taken out by aircraft or other ships before reaching the target.

Brahmos is like a wailing banshee, goes screaming towards the target. Harpoon is like a silent hitman, taking it's own time to make the kill.
You forgot that Brahmos is a sea skimming missile, which makes it harder to detect and it isn't detected until it is very close.

Also, stealth doesn't make up for the fact that it is still very difficult to differentiate military ships from civilian ships at 500 km.
 

p2prada

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

You forgot that Brahmos is a sea skimming missile, which makes it harder to detect and it isn't detected until it is very close.
It depends on many parameters including flight path. If long range of 300Km is required, Brahmos climbs to a high altitude and drop downs to 10m during terminal phase. If sea skimming mode is required throughout the flight then range drops down to 120Km. If a lot of maneuvering space is required, then range can drop down even more.

As for detection, a Brahmos type missile can be detected at a distance of 50Km from a Frigate while the Harpoon will be detected at 20Km. In other words, the ship will see Brahmos first. This is for a sea skimming profile.

Also, stealth doesn't make up for the fact that it is still very difficult to differentiate military ships from civilian ships at 500 km.
It is a problem for all. Other "seekers" can also be used like AEWCs, fighters or Maritime Patrol Aircraft in order to find ships at longer distances. The shooter only needs to have something that can be used over such a long range. A subsonic missile is the best for such a scenario because of the added stealthiness. Time to target takes forever though.

Long range missiles will also bring other problems like increased size and weight. Just that a subsonic missile is far too stealthy compared to Brahmos class missiles, including the exhaust plume.
 

hit&run

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

You forgot that Brahmos is a sea skimming missile, which makes it harder to detect and it isn't detected until it is very close.

Also, stealth doesn't make up for the fact that it is still very difficult to differentiate military ships from civilian ships at 500 km.
Correct

Stealth attack with Cms has nothing to do with speed and shape but trajectory.
 
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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

You forgot that Brahmos is a sea skimming missile, which makes it harder to detect and it isn't detected until it is very close.

Also, stealth doesn't make up for the fact that it is still very difficult to differentiate military ships from civilian ships at 500 km.
Even if detected it can perform S manuvers at MACH 3 to get thru the ship's defenses

1st LD Writethru: Indian Navy successfully testfires new BrahMos cruise missile

Since late 2004, the missile has undergone several tests from variety of platforms including a land based test from Pokhran desert, in which the "S" maneuver at Mach 2.8 was demonstrated for the Indian Army and a launch in which the land attack capability from sea was demonstrated.
 

Dragonov

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

It depends on many parameters including flight path. If long range of 300Km is required, Brahmos climbs to a high altitude and drop downs to 10m during terminal phase. If sea skimming mode is required throughout the flight then range drops down to 120Km. If a lot of maneuvering space is required, then range can drop down even more.

As for detection, a Brahmos type missile can be detected at a distance of 50Km from a Frigate while the Harpoon will be detected at 20Km. In other words, the ship will see Brahmos first. This is for a sea skimming profile.



It is a problem for all. Other "seekers" can also be used like AEWCs, fighters or Maritime Patrol Aircraft in order to find ships at longer distances. The shooter only needs to have something that can be used over such a long range. A subsonic missile is the best for such a scenario because of the added stealthiness. Time to target takes forever though.

Long range missiles will also bring other problems like increased size and weight. Just that a subsonic missile is far too stealthy compared to Brahmos class missiles, including the exhaust plume.
You are wrong Mr. to reject Brahmos just because of its higher detection range. And u r right if Brahmos & harpoon have the same speed. but the fact is Brahmos travels 4 times faster than Harpoon. Considering 20km detection range of harpoon and its 240m/s speed, the adversary will have about 83 sec to react. And considering 50km detection range and 2.8 mach speed, a Brahmos will give only 52 sec to react to the adversary. now u tell me which one is deadlier.
 

Defcon 1

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Re: New Brahmos Missile range 500kms

Not necessary. India can always extend the range and rename it, just like the pakis are doing. Who cares!
I know, but that would be illegal. My point was that there is no legal way for us to do so.
 

Defcon 1

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

You are wrong Mr. to reject Brahmos just because of its higher detection range. And u r right if Brahmos & harpoon have the same speed. but the fact is Brahmos travels 4 times faster than Harpoon. Considering 20km detection range of harpoon and its 240m/s speed, the adversary will have about 83 sec to react. And considering 50km detection range and 2.8 mach speed, a Brahmos will give only 52 sec to react to the adversary. now u tell me which one is deadlier.
Thanks for pointing it out. This is exactly I was going to say. Also, P2P can u please post how did u reach the conclusion about the range from where brahmos will be detected. Presently it seems like you have chosen diameter as the deciding factor(just guessing).
 

p2prada

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

You are wrong Mr. to reject Brahmos just because of its higher detection range. And u r right if Brahmos & harpoon have the same speed. but the fact is Brahmos travels 4 times faster than Harpoon. Considering 20km detection range of harpoon and its 240m/s speed, the adversary will have about 83 sec to react. And considering 50km detection range and 2.8 mach speed, a Brahmos will give only 52 sec to react to the adversary. now u tell me which one is deadlier.
What if I tell you if I was in the ship, I would need lesser time to spoof Brahmos compared to Harpoon and that once spoofed the Harpoon has the time to correct its course to reinitiate its attack with the correct course while the Brahmos will just fall into the sea.

It is not about which one is deadlier, both are deadly, the point is which of them will get the work done. So, it depends on what the adversary can throw at the missile to defeat it. The fact is modern missile defence systems on ships can react in one to two seconds and a missile salvo can be away in the 3rd second. So, it makes no difference once the missile is detected.

Both missiles have advantages and disadvantages. It's not like one is better than the other.

Thanks for pointing it out. This is exactly I was going to say. Also, P2P can u please post how did u reach the conclusion about the range from where brahmos will be detected. Presently it seems like you have chosen diameter as the deciding factor(just guessing).
Beyond just that. It is not just range, but also altitude. Brahmos only drops down to sea skimming mode after the target is confirmed to be in the area.

Then, it's IR signature is not small either. Nor is the trailing exhaust plume than can be detected using IR detectors and the missile can be located using a radar.

Missiles like Brahmos can cruise at 5-15m, but Harpoon type missiles can cruise at 2m or 3m, so even that matters.

ASuW isn't about pointing a radar at the target and shooting the missile. You need to identify the target and then track and lock on to the target. This is best possible at shorter ranges, not longer ranges, that's because of the radar horizon.

If you check USN inventory, they use both, in a certain way. They use Harpoon as their primary weapon for ASuW. But they also have this SAM called SM-2 which has a secondary anti-shipping capability and has been used in war. It does not have a cruise missile trajectory but it flies at Mach 4 and has a 50Kg warhead which can do a lot of damage. Considering they carry a 100 missiles, they don't have much problems with ripple firing a bunch of them at the enemy.

In the future they are expected to carry both subsonic missiles and supersonic missiles for ASuW. We have a similar capability on ships too. Our ships carry a combination of supersonic Brahmos / subsonic+supersonic Klub and Sea Eagles on the ship helicopters.

Klub combines the capability of Brahmos with Harpoon. Only the terminal flight is supersonic and this gives the missile good range while being of a smaller size than Brahmos, thus smaller radar and IR signatures.

It is merely good to have all three types.
 

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India, Russia ink deal on air-launched BrahMos missile - India

Ahead of the visit of President Vladimir Putin, India and Russia have signed a deal for working together to develop the air-launched version of the 290-km-range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, which would be fitted to the Su-30MKI combat aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

An agreement was signed between BrahMos Aerospace, Russian Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi Design Bureau for developing the air-launched version of the missile here on Friday, defence ministry officials said here.

The two sides have been holding negotiations for the joint development for quite some time now and are now hopeful that the first test of the missile would be done within next six months, they said.

Recently, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had cleared an IAF proposal worth over Rs6,000 crore to buy BrahMos missiles for their integration with Russian-origin Su-30MKI.

As per plans, the first test of the air-launched version of the supersonic cruise missile, developed jointly by India and Russia, is to be conducted by middle of next year.

Two Su-30MKI of the IAF would also be modified by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at its Nashik facility where the planes will be integrated with the aerial launcher developed by the BrahMos, they said.

BrahMos missiles integrated on the Su-30s will help the IAF achieve the capability to deliver a deadly blow to enemy formations from stand-off ranges of around 300 km without getting close to them.


India, Russia ink deal on air-launched BrahMos missile - India - DNA
 

t_co

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re: New BrahMos Cruise Missile: Range 500kms

What is the BrahMos unit cost?
 

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