BrahMos Cruise Missile

[p2prada]

There wouldn't be much point in MTCR if there weren't consequences for breaking the control regime.

Best of luck trying to place sanctions on Russia. You can kiss goodbye to Europe. Who's gonna supply Gas?

MTCR does not have provisions to place sanctions. If Russia breaks the treaty then US will get the excuse to go ahead with the European missile shield and China will get the excuse to arm Iran with missiles.

It works on a Tit for Tat basis.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Here is question to all............

All are aware about the brahmos range, due to MTCR, restrictions,

enemy ships will try to stay away from the max range of Brahmos if launch from ship by IN. (they will be at the range of 350-500 km range)

Brahmos corporation cannot extend the range of these missile, but what if end user, will add boosters to few of these brahoms msisile so as to extend the range to further 100-200 km, by giving the contract to some other company (indian).

That way we Russians dont violate MTCR regulations, their must be no clause in the purchase agreement which says that IN shall not do any modification on the missile to suit its requirement.

We can do this till such time air launch version of Brahmos missiles are inducted in our arm forces.

We now also have Shauriya which can be thought of as an extended range Brahmos 2, so this MCTR issue is more or less a non issue, and also NIRBHAY in a short time will be available.

 

[Armand2REP]

MTCR does not have provisions to place sanctions.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/22/39/VII/2797b
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000E0401:FR:NOT

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The sanctions would be more severe for Russia that is why they have capped brahmos range, but even the threat of sanctions have not stopped countries like China who have intermediaries like North Korea do the dirty work, it's the good boys that get punished the bad boys get away with most anything and everything including proliferation.

 

[sayareakd]

We now also have Shauriya which can be thought of as an extended range Brahmos 2, so this MCTR issue is more or less a non issue, and also NIRBHAY in a short time will be available.

LF the point is brahmos is almost impossible to be intercepted, nirbhay is not in the same class, as far as Shauriya is concern it is strategic missile meant for nuclear payload. You cannot expected shauriya for anti ship role, except in the case of Aircraft carrier.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

LF the point is brahmos is almost impossible to be intercepted, nirbhay is not in the same class, as far as Shauriya is concern it is strategic missile meant for nuclear payload. You cannot expected shauriya for anti ship role, except in the case of Aircraft carrier.

There was a article I posted in the hypersonic missile thread that hinted at 2 versions of Brahmos 2 being built one with Russia 300km and the other totally indigenous extended range here is the link:


http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2008/05/brahmos-hypersonic-cruise-missile-for.html

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?827-India-Tinkering-With-Hypersonic-Missiles/page19
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The laboratory testing of the missile has started. Another, longer ranged variant is also being considered [presumably by India?], although joint development would not be possible, since Russia is a signatory to the MTCR."

 

[sayareakd]

LF do you seriously think that true hypersonic missile will go less then 300 KM ???

 

[LETHALFORCE]

LF do you seriously think that true hypersonic missile will go less then 300 KM ???

Pillai has said he wants to drop the Russians and produce Brahmos totally indigenoulsy ;so I highly doubt it will be capped at 300km, worst comes to worst we do what the Chinese do totally reverse engineer it indigenously and extend the range and claim it to be a separate missile.

 

[sayareakd]

LF it will take at least 100 + km to kick in hypersonic on Brahmos -II. now only 200 km are left, it will clear

 

[gb009]

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/22/39/VII/2797b
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000E0401:FR:NOT

2nd link not in english .
The first one lists US Laws & rules, stuff US would do if someone were to break MTCR. These are not provisions within MTCR.

 

[gb009]

Got the 2nd link in english : http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000E0401:EN:HTML (link present on the same page mentioned by armand2REP, I missed it the 1st time)
Again this corresponds to what EU would do in a similar situation. Not a part of MTCR.

 

[Armand2REP]

The links are the legislation both the US and EU have placed to govern the consequences of breaking the MTCR. With the economic power of the US and EU combined, it is enough leverage to dissuade most.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Armand all the treaties look good on paper but the biggest violators are member(s) of the P5, who so far have all gone unpunished as well as the recipients of their charity and prospered economically.

 

[dineshchaturvedi]

I do not think both India and Russia is going to engage in something which will blame us for MTCR. I however feel under the table something might be done to get what we need and in geopolitics very funny at time, you never know both EU and USA might actually help us get a better missile to check China.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I do not think both India and Russia is going to engage in something which will blame us for MTCR. I however feel under the table something might be done to get what we need and in geopolitics very funny at time, you never know both EU and USA might actually help us get a better missile to check China.

Israel and India are non signatories to the MTCR so both can work on missiles together without violating any treaty;both are coincidentally also non NPT signatories.

 

[Yusuf]

I don't think its going to be difficult to increase the range of brahmos for the DRDO. additional stages can be incorporated.
Wonder if we can have a subsonic phase while the missile is in indian territory and then a boost phase where it takes a supersonic phase

 

[Armand2REP]

Israel and India are non signatories to the MTCR so both can work on missiles together without violating any treaty;both are coincidentally also non NPT signatories.

Israel and India also aren't working on anything that will break MTCR. Israel is the last country that wants to anger the US arms control regime.

 

[bengalraider]

Air launched version at DEFEXPO

 

[lodaxstax]

I don't think its going to be difficult to increase the range of brahmos for the DRDO. additional stages can be incorporated.
Wonder if we can have a subsonic phase while the missile is in indian territory and then a boost phase where it takes a supersonic phase

that's precisely how i have felt for Brahmos and future Brahmos-2. let the missiles be sub sonic in Indian space and pump up boosters for supersonic/hypersonic stage later on.

 

[nrj]

that's precisely how i have felt for Brahmos and future Brahmos-2. let the missiles be sub sonic in Indian space and pump up boosters for supersonic/hypersonic stage later on.

Maybe possible for current Supersonic Bramhos to keep it subsonic in Indian Air & then cruising it to supersonic speed afterwords. It'll' involve mammoth work though.

But I highly doubt same logic applies to a Hypersonic missile. Because basically you see the scramjet technology incorporated in hypersonic missile is very complex, rather critical.
In scramjet tech, the air intake is supersonic & the same supersonic airflow is required to be maintained throughout the engine. There is very very short time to mix the fuel on board since the higher velocity of the airflow.This is the main difficulty in realizing the hypersonic speed i.e. speed beyond 5.5 MACH. The air is forced inside, compression & heating is done along with fuel is combusted expanding the gas. Any small irregularity/error in the structural geometry of flying body will result in greatest drag possible.

The compression as well as the exhaust is SUPERSONIC. Depending on the fuel, the kinetic energy of the air and the potential combustion heat release will be equal at around Mach 6+. As the speed increases makes the control of the flow within the combustion chamber more difficult. More speed we achieve difficult it gets to maintain the body in air without destroying it.
However we obtain the so called "HYPERSONIC" speed in the mean time.

Now when you are talking about keeping the initial phase subsonic & further hypersonic stage, its a lot complicated & unnecessary if we can master the hypersonic ability.
Because if tomorrow India or even India+Russia succeed in this technology; forget MTCR, US & every other power will be lining up to buy it with blank cheque in briefcase.