Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

bennedose

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You have zero knowledge of whole issue else you would not have made such a massive error. You can bark from Mumbai but this will not change the fact that Lithuanian shares pronouns( most conservative part of any language) with Hindi but not with Finnish. Hindi shares many words which are of common body parts like teeth and throat with Latin but not with Tamil. Yet the foll is saying that AIT is false and OIT can not be true. One has to be there, else how come people as distant as some 4000 miles share pronouns?
There is an interesting connection between Sanskrit and Slovenian. There are a lot of common words but no common words for metal. This is what the paper says:
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik01/pdf/skulj_indo.pdf
Div ergence of Sanskrit and Slovenian:

Despite of numerous similarities in the two languages, there is no common recognizable terminology for metals. The discovery and dating of the 'Ice Man' in the South Tyrol with his copper axe, indicates that metals were known 5,200 years a go. This could be construed that the two languages separated before metallurgy became known.
If Sanskrit and Slovenian separated more than 5000 years ago - it is a huge spanner in the works for the so called language spread theory of Indo-European languages that postulate that Indo European came to Iran and India just 3000 years ago.
 

Pratap

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Mr. Mickey Mouse would like us to believe that the AIT is a solid theory which is well established and taught across the globe. The truth however is that the theory has been completely crushed to the bone as I've demonstrated above. Someone commented earlier that Pratap is not an Indian and that his identity is fake. I don't know about his nationality but this creature certainly has an agenda in his head. He could be a foreigner or a Muslim/Christian depending on which agenda he is pursuing here with all his might and also failing miserably.
Call it AMT if it pleases you but it is certainly well established across globe with not more than few scholars( Kazanas, SS Mishra) opposing it. Our forum have many foreign members from IE nations like Iran and Poland. Ask them which theory is well established and you will get to know your status.

I certainly have an agenda just like you have . If someone being muslim can not oppose OIT how come Hindus support it? Hindus are also a party to it and so their views are as prejudiced as anyone else.

I am not a muslim or christian but you might be paid by british like Ambedkar who was anti Hindu and opposed AIT.
 

jalsa

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Call it AMT if it pleases you but it is certainly well established across globe with not more than few scholars( Kazanas, SS Mishra) opposing it. Our forum have many foreign members from IE nations like Iran and Poland. Ask them which theory is well established and you will get to know your status.

I certainly have an agenda just like you have . If someone being muslim can not oppose OIT how come Hindus support it? Hindus are also a party to it and so their views are as prejudiced as anyone else.

I am not a muslim or christian but you might be paid by british like Ambedkar who was anti Hindu and opposed AIT.
Wow..,. Ambedkar was a British Agent? man you have some serious problems.
 

bennedose

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@Pratap
Siir you are one angry man. Are your facts not strong enough on their own that you need to post a litany of complaints about posters whose viewpoint differs from your pet beliefs? May I point out that this caterwaul makes you look like a frustrated man in retreat who realizes that he is on a losing wicket. You need to stick to facts, not emotions and appeals. The following paragraph only indicates to me the various means by which I can make you more and more angry and enjoy this debate further because you do not even require facts before you have a rant. Here is what you said
I expect you to show some decency as 15 days ago when I talked about PIE homeland located in Russia, you were as surprised as a medieval monk on listening that earth revolves around sun. You said that I was talking about this some 164 years after Latham which means that you were not aware of Anthony and in just 15 days , you have become expert to point out fallacies in his book!
Yes there are a few fallacies in his book that i will point out (exact quote will be provided later if you want) . I will be posting a longer critique of his connecting a "horse culture" with the Rig Veda, but let me simply point out that in one part of his book David Anthony is all praise for the respected Bokonyi. But when it comes to Bokonyi's endorsement of the Surkotada horse - David Anthony suddenly thinks Bokonyi is wrong. These scholars are jokers who take what is convenient and question what is inconvenient. Why would it be wrong if others did that?
 
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Pratap

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@bennedose
]There is an interesting connection between Sanskrit and Slovenian. There are a lot of common words but no common words for metal. This is what the paper says
Yes but why should this be problem? Tell me pronouns of Slovenian and I will show you their relation with Sanskrit. It is pronoun that matters most for they are never borrowed. If you know Hindi and have heard Hinglish, you must have never heard"he easily angry ho jata hai". Instead, you must have heard "wah easily angry ho jata hai".
Kazanas prepared 500 words which found match in almost all IE languages but not every of them. So sanskrit gala is related to latin gula but not to English throat. The term for chariot is related to sanskrit ratha however.

If Sanskrit and Slovenian separated more than 5000 years ago - it is a huge spanner in the works for the so called language spread theory of Indo-European languages that postulate that Indo European came to Iran and India just 3000 years ago.
No slovenian was there 5000 years ago. What was there was proto baltoslavic and proto Indo Iranic. These two branches separated and have given rise to numerous independent languages. What came to India was OIA and it was somewhere around 2000-1500 BC.
How is this a huge spanner? The Indo Iraninas lived in Andronovo and before that Sintasta and spreading chariots around the world.
 
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Pratap

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Wow..,. Ambedkar was a British Agent? man you have some serious problems.
He was. Read Arun Shourie's book and then talk about this. Please do not discuss it here. I have no time for Dalit revisionism where a man who oposed idea of Indian independence is regarded as " Indian patriot". What is interesting is Mr.bennedose's reaction who will enjoy I getting attacked by everyone when he himself thinks that caste is not to be ashamed of and thus directly challenging Ambedkar's views.
 
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Pratap

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Siir you are one angry man. Are your facts not string enough that you need to post a litany of complaints about posters who question your viewpoint. May I point out that this caterwaul makes you look like an frustrated man who realizes that he is on a losing wicket. You need to stick to facts, not emotions and appeals. The following paragraph only indicates to me the various means by which I can make you more and more angry and enjoy this debate further because you do not even require facts before you have a rant. Here is what you said
I am fed up with utter shamelessness of your camp where you quote one part of scholar and then reject his other findings. No one loses anything, all we have is a majority of fools shouting and nothing more. What if someone is challenged at an afrocentrist forum?

es there are a few fallacies in his book that i will point out (exact quote will be provided later if you want) . I will be posting a longer critique of his connecting a "horse culture" with the Rig Veda, but let me simply point out that in one part of his book David Anthony is all praise for the respected Bokonyi. But when it comes to Bokonyi's endorsement of the Surkotada horse - David Anthony suddenly thinks Bokonyi is wrong. These scholars are jokers who take what is convenient and question what is inconvenient. Why would it be wrong if others did that?
Because he is scholar and can differ. If non entities quote a scholar in favor of their own position, they can not pick and choose, especially when it comes to their branches.
TimeTo Scoot can not quote Hans Hock for genetics( when Hock is a professor of sanskrit) and reject his stand on PIE and relation of Sanskrit with it, a field which is his specialization.
That is like you quoting Underhill for linguistics but rejecting his finding on genetics( just giving an example)
 

Pratap

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Mr. TimeToScoot

If you are so confidant of your theory of no AIT( no AMT also as AMT is just a softer version) , then please produce one book written after 1995( as you claimed), by a professor of linguistics , Indian or non Indian, describing no AMT and thus that Indo aryan languages did not come from outside apart from SS Misra. Do this and I will tell you many books to the contrary.

It was rather ignorant of you to quote Hans Hock on genetics( when he is professor of sanskrit) and ignoring his view that AMT is correct. Infact, he has argued against OIT and has been abused by your hero Shrikant Talageri, a bank employee who is confidant that he has proven OIT. So you choose a sanskrit professor for genetics and ignore his dates for Rigveda and his theory on Sanskrit being developed from PIE. What a comedian you are!

I will wait for book .
 

Pratap

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See this from Hans Hock

Hock, Hans H. 1999. Out of India? The Linguistic Evidence. In: J. Bronkhorst & M. Deshpande, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology, 1-18. Harvard Oriental Series. Opera Minora, Vol. 3. Cambridge, MA.

The professor demolishes OIT and we have some creatures quoting him on genetics. Neo nazis also do same to deny holocaust. If a scholar says that one part of evidence for h is not there, they show him as" scholar who supports us".
 

Pratap

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This is what Shrikant Talageri , a man often seen in youtube ( this is quality of anti AIT camp who have youtube just as Koreans do to prove that confucius was a korean), says about Hans Hock, a man quoted with much enthusiasm by TimeToScoot
What Hock does is he refers to my books, but completely and absolutely ignores everything relevant to the academic discussion contained in those books. In an act of extreme intellectual cowardice, hypocrisy and charlatanism, Hock treats the entire content of all my three books (1993b, 2000, 2008) as completely non-existent, and sums up my entire case as consisting of an ideological agenda which he derives from three extraneous non-academic additional chapters contained
This abusing by Talageri is even more interesting. Talageri is angry with Hock for not accepting OIT
But, faced with a formidable Out-of-India case, and masses of unassailable data, evidence and interpretations, and opponents who can not be patronized, Hock comes out in his true colors: he totally refuses to even pretend to examine the Out-of-India case, starts an all-out cyber and campus campaign against it
http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/hans-heinrich-hock-a-scholar-lying-through-his-teeth-shrikant-talageri/
TimeToScoot has shot himself in foot.


What is interesting is that Hans Hock is scholar of Sanskrit whereas our bank employee Talageri can not read the language and uses 19th century translations of Rigveda in English done by a colonial man called Griffiths, to demolish AIT and he has courage to debate with a professor of sanskrit on sanskrit without even knowing the language.
I have been given youtube links on this very thread where Talageri lectures how AIT is wrong.
 
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Mad Indian

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He was. Read Arun Shourie's book and then talk about this. Please do not discuss it here. I have no time for Dalit revisionism where a man who oposed idea of Indian independence is regarded as " Indian patriot". What is interesting is Mr.bennedose's reaction who will enjoy I getting attacked by everyone when he himself thinks that caste is not to be ashamed of and thus directly challenging Ambedkar's views.
Yes, any one who is not licking upper caste boots is not a patriot:thumb:

No wonder Lower castes vote on caste basis. Thats their only hope from UC shit heads :mad:
 

TimeToScoot

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You have zero knowledge of whole issue else you would not have made such a massive error. You can bark from Mumbai but this will not change the fact that Lithuanian shares pronouns( most conservative part of any language) with Hindi but not with Finnish. Hindi shares many words which are of common body parts like teeth and throat with Latin but not with Tamil. Yet the fool is saying that AIT is false and OIT can not be true. One has to be there, else how come people as distant as some 4000 miles share pronouns?
Mr. Mickey Mouse has now proven that he is completely unfit for a logical debate. The AIT is a specific case of migration into India. There are only two possibilities - either there has been migration into India or there has been migration out of India. But AIT is a specific case of migration into India with specific parameters i.e. waves of migration of semi literate nomads into India from Central Asia in 1500 BC. If this fails it does not mean that someone couldn't have entered India in 6000 BC from say Greece. The 'AIT' is a specific case of migration into India.

For the last 2-3 days I've had to skip my early morning meditation and yoga practice to engage with this world class dunce. If his bawdy 'Khopdi' cannot interpret and process basic logic and reach a rational conclusion I'm just wasting my time with him. So here ends my interaction with Mr. Mickey Mouse.


See this from Hans Hock

Hock, Hans H. 1999. Out of India? The Linguistic Evidence. In: J. Bronkhorst & M. Deshpande, Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology, 1-18. Harvard Oriental Series. Opera Minora, Vol. 3. Cambridge, MA. The professor demolishes OIT and we have some creatures quoting him on genetics. Neo nazis also do same to deny holocaust. If a scholar says that one part of evidence for h is not there, they show him as" scholar who supports us".
The imbecile again works with the assumption that the OIT and AIT are the only possibilities. So if Hans Hock is opposing the OIT it means he is supporting the AIT. Hilarious!

Good luck folks interacting with a birdbrain. Over and out.
 

Pratap

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Yes, any one who is not licking upper caste boots is not a patriot:thumb:

No wonder Lower castes vote on caste basis. Thats their only hope from UC shit heads :mad:
Ambedkar opposed idea of Indian independence not like Narayan Guru who opposed caste cruelties but was not being patronized by British.
How many times Ambedkar went to jails( even symbolically) ?
 
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Pratap

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Mr. Mickey Mouse has now proven that he is completely unfit for a logical debate. The AIT is a specific case of migration into India. There are only two possibilities - either there has been migration into India or there has been migration out of India. But AIT is a specific case of migration into India with specific parameters i.e. waves of migration of semi literate nomads into India from Central Asia in 1500 BC. If this fails it does not mean that someone couldn't have entered India in 6000 BC from say Greece. The 'AIT' is a specific case of migration into India.
"semi literate nomads". The theory says that they were completely illiterates as the nomads did not know writing. Another stupid statement.
So your problem is 1500 BC? Well most of AIT theorists are not that particular about it and can only provide dates. AI took place after 2200 BC is the theory not that it took place in 1500 BC.

For the last 2-3 days I've had to skip my early morning meditation and yoga practice to engage with this world class dunce. If his bawdy 'Khopdi' cannot interpret and process basic logic and reach a rational conclusion I'm just wasting my time with him. So here ends my interaction with Mr. Mickey Mouse.
Continue your yoga classes for you are unfit to read anything as of now. You presented findings of a sanskrit professor on genetics shows how much you need Yoga classes.

The imbecile again works with the assumption that the OIT and AIT are the only possibilities. So if Hans Hock is opposing the OIT it means he is supporting the AIT. Hilarious!

Good luck folks interacting with a birdbrain. Over and out.
Hans Hock does support that sanskrit developed out of PIE so I do not know what you are ranting. He opposes"invasion" not "migration" and both are same thing so far as anti AIT camp is concerned.
Having been exposed you acted like a typical internet troll who runs away when challenged for fact.
Goodbye Mr TimeToScoot.
 

Mad Indian

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Ambedkar opposed idea of Indian independence not like Narayan Guru who opposed caste cruelties but was not being patronized by British.
How many times Ambedkar went to jails( even symbolically) ?
Oh shut up twit, Stop writing out of your ass. He dint oppose the independance but did not participate in it either because he had much more important thing to fight against- the upper caste twits and their casteist oppression of the lower castes at that time.

Judging by the dogs present now even on this very forum, I can only understand how hard it was for him for not demanding a country for the lower castes after all the crap he would have faced from them. For that alone, he should be given a medal.

In case you took your head out of the gutter you would read that he was the one behind writing of constitution for India
 

Mad Indian

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"semi literate nomads". The theory says that they were completely illiterates as the nomads did not know writing. Another stupid statement.
So your problem is 1500 BC? Well most of AIT theorists are not that particular about it and can only provide dates. AI took place after 2200 BC is the theory not that it took place in 1500 BC..
Indus Valley civisation existed well into 1500BCE. So if AIT did not happen at 1500BCE and happened much earlier at 2200BCE, then it means AIT did not happen at all:frusty:

Its like saying Christianity originated in 700BCE while Jesus was born on 4BCE:rolleyes:

Are you sure you have a brain?:confused:
 

shinoj

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See something was wrong within the system that discriminated ambedkar even though he was talented but the British exploited this fact and made full use of ambedkar and turned him totally against upper castes

I am reading a genuine article which supports my argument and I will let you all decide
 

shinoj

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@ Pratap, All the proofs are there in the vedas but many documents had been burnt and stolen by the brits and the mughals, I will let your know genuine proof about OIT directly from the Vedas
 

bennedose

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No slovenian was there 5000 years ago. What was there was proto baltoslavic and proto Indo Iranic. .
If you look at this objectively the sentence you have written as absolute nionsense - but you are merely repeating step 1 of the bluff that linguists start with. That step is in saying "All languages change over time and therefore 5000 years ago there was some language and that language was proto-XYZ"

Fine so far so good.

But beyond that NOTHING is known

1. It is not known what that language was
2. it is not known at what rate that language changed
3. The It is not known where that language was spoken

Starting from these three basic truths linguists have arrived at solutions that are then accepted by all who read those solutions (including yourself) as "The truth about Languages"

For Point No1: " It is not known what that language was" Linguists simply say it was "proto-XYZ" - like "Proto Indo European". Then these linguists, their students or there followers start writing papers and articles saying "Proto Indo European was spoken in blahblahblah". Suddenly, a non existent, theoretical languages whose real exsitence is unknown and simply hypothesized has become a spoken language.

We now have a spoken language created out of nothing, and linguists go on to the next step

For Step 2: it is not known at what rate that language changed: This basically means that the rate of change of language is completely unknown despite many efforts by nonsensical glottochronology to arrive at some date. This has never prevented linguists from using some form of sleight of hand to arrive at dates. So the cooked up prot language has an approximate date. More on that below, but before that step 3:

Step 3: The It is not known where that language was spoken. When you cook up a language, give it a name and a date that goes back several thousand years the only way you can cook up geography for that language is to cooperate with Archeologists. In the 1800s geography of language was very simple. They initially said "Hey vedic sanskrit is old - therefore it originated around the Indus river". After some time they (mainly whits racists) did not like this. Someone said "What rubbish! Vedas is all about horses and India has no horses, so let's start looking for horse bones"

The found plenty of horse bones in Central Asia, but no Vedas. No textx or language in fact. So what did the do? Bingo! The looked at Griffiths translation of the Rig Veda (it is another matter that the Vedas are untranslateable, but I shall leave that subject for another time). They pick up 4 lines from the Rig veda and say "Lookee here - they are cooking horse meat. Now who eats horse meat in India? No one. But where do they eat horse meat? In central Asia. Therefore Vedas must have come from central Asia. Need more proof? Central Asia has "kurgans" graves with buried horses and chariots. And they said that Rig Veda has a description of a burial scene" - which is utter nonsense - but I will post the rebuttal in great detail in a later post. The Rig Veda has no description of a burial scene. But that did not stop linguists from saying that Rig Veda was conjured up by horse meat eaters of central asia and they then came to Indus valley and compiled the Rig veda.

So now linguists have conjured up a language, dates and geography. Suddenly, out of nothing a language and history has been created. Such a huge bluff has never been repeated until the US attacked Iraq saying they have nukes.

Here is a brilliant quote from a linguistics professor named Jay Jasanoff
No less important than what linguistic evidence can do is what it cannot do. It cannot
provide us with fixed dates or absolute chronologies [..] The nineteenth and early twentieth-century scholars who created the myth of the "Aryans" committed every possible methodological error in leaping from Proto-Indo-European to the Proto-Indo-Europeans — the error of confusing language with "race"; of uncritically ascribing language spread to violent conquest; of attributing conquest to racial superiority; and of selectively interpreting the material evidence to locate the IE homeland where their prejudices led them to expect it. Current-day reimaginings of the past are usually more subtle. But the use of linguistic data to support prehistoric scenarios of conquest or ownership, often with an ethnic or national bias, remains surprisingly common. Linguistically literate readers should be prepared to correct for this practice when they encounter it."
This is exactly what David Anthony has done. the following are a few paragraphs from a draft book that I am writing
An example of this can be found in the book "Horse, Wheel and Language" by David Anthony. Quoting dates based purely on linguistic reconstructions Anthony dogmatically asserts that Early Proto Indo-European "was spoken between 4000 and 3500 BCE" as if the language really existed and is known to have been spoken. From this the author extrapolates the earlier assumptions to reach the conclusion that "Pre-Indo-Iranian developed from a northeastern set of dialects between 2500 and 2200 BCE." Having reached these conclusions based solely on linguistic reconstruction data with no other evidence, Anthony surprisingly puts in writing his intention to fit available facts to the conclusions he has reached. He writes "Now that the target is fixed in time, we can solve the old and bitter debate about where Proto-Indo-European was spoken." Note that by now PIE has already been made a spoken language with a well defined time period. When the answers are already decided in advance, it is difficult to imagine what else might be left to "solve"
 
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