Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[KS]

I wont believe that. The genetics says other wise.

Well you are free to. but that is a valid hypothesis/possibility.

Genetics is not same as some satelite imageries and secret reports. BTW< what does US have to gain anything by supporting the ARyan invasion theory?

The reason I have already given. Read previous posts. It is not US govt perse..but some groups in US.

I dont think so. They stil think India = Cow belt. You do get that kind of response from lot of members even now.

They are few and far in between. Ignore them.

 

[Mad Indian]

Removing the noise

Which you are supposed to

Isn't it obvious ? A connection with India has to be made to make his theories seems somewhat plausible.

Short story:

It started with European study of Indian culture (aka Indology). Race obsessed Euros (at that time), couldn't come to terms with the sophistication of ancient Indian philosophy. Hence, they came up with the Aryan invasion theory. This was used by various people to further their own objectives:


Hitler: Ancient Germans were a bunch of barbarian tribes which invaded rome. Hitler wanted to build up German race pride, he did that by stealing Indian history.

British: They justified colonization on the basis of AIT

Marx: Wrote a whole bunch of stuff on class struggles wrt to AIT.

But lets leave it. As long as there is no race involved , i am fine with it

 

[LurkerBaba]

Yeah well that is debatable. See, the context i see it is that the migration of South Indians must have happened first. And must have been there for quite some time. Later the Northies must have come

This is false

Check this out

(From the Genographic Project
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html

The first wave of human migration into India is

The first wave into South India is this :

 

[KS]

@ LB - the first wave must have been the adivasis of today. Like Santhals there or Todas,Irulas here...

 

[LurkerBaba]

@ LB - the first wave must have been the adivasis of today. Like Santhals there or Todas,Irulas here...

Yes, but they're Northies too no ?

And by the time the direct wave from Africa comes, Central Asian migrations have started

 

[KS]

Yes, but they're Northies too no ?

Todas and Irulas live in South..moreover the migration happened through central India..not north.

 

[KS]

And by the time the direct wave from Africa comes, Central Asian migrations have started

Dude you are talking about a time gap of about 5000 years...

Yeah as I said everything is possible as there is no conclusive proof as of now.

 

[Mad Indian]

This is false

Check this out

(From the Genographic Project
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html

The first wave of human migration into India is

The first wave into South India is this :

Again no way this shows the timing of the migrants. I still stand by my stance. The south Indians must have come first . Most genetic studies say the same.

More research needed to acsertain the same, or to disprove it

 

[LurkerBaba]

Again no way this shows the timing of the migrants. I still stand by my stance. The south Indians must have come first . Most genetic studies say the same.

More research needed to acsertain the same, or to disprove it

Yes it does show the timing of migrants.

Also, there is no such thing as separate race of "South Indians"

 

[Virendra]

Ok. I will leave it in peace, if you accept in unison, no race. And there is no Aryan race(since there is no dravidian race)

That is right. Aryans and Dravidians aren't deperate races. Defining races and origins on basis of linguistics isn't an empirical way to prove anything.
Even the Invasion/Migration theorists such as Witzel have conceeded that till now there is no archeological proof to suggest an Aryan Invasion.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Mad Indian]

Yes it does show the timing of migrants.

Also, there is no such thing as separate race of "South Indians"

No it does not. I cant see it. If so, please explain how?

May be, i am not talking about the race, but the wave of migration(most responsible) which constitutes the South Indians as of now.

 

[Virendra]

But the study involved here is not phenotype but genotype.

Yes but general discussions at online forums tend to contain "tall, white, blonde hair, blue eye" kind of arguments. Just wanted to clear it.

That infact suggests that the migration was from North west

And how is the Af-Pak thousands of years back anyway out of India? In those millennia the entire Indus to Ganges region (Sapta-Sindhu) was a fertile soil for civilizational growth. Climate changes force people to move. Climate change is constant and movement of people is constant.
IVC site excavations are most intense/frequent in regions surrounding Sarasvati. When Sarasvati dried, the people would obviously scatter to other places. Best bet would be to find a river rich region few hunded miles east or west. This type of small to medium range migrations could have happened many times over in the past milennias.

Again, you claim that the Brahmins think they are Aryans, as Aryans are credited with the development of Sanskrit, hence they should have been a seperate race no? Or is it False that Aryans developed the Sanskrit?

And what made you think Brahmans are a seperate race? Brahmins is not squrely equal to Aryans, atleast not in genetic or racial manner. Aryans are not a race.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[panduranghari]

Caste System: Its’ Life & Birth « 2ndlook

Caste System: Its' Life & Birth

100 years of a hoax
Strangely, one British hoax that has not been called out, even sixty-five years after independence, is the creation of the caste-system narrative. While many Indians know of Max Muller's motivations in creation of the Aryan Invasion Theory, very few are aware of how one man created the equally enduring myth of the caste system.

Herbert Hope Risley.

The ethnographer behind the caste system in the 1901 census. In-charge of the 1901 census, as per his biographer

Risley believed that the varna, however ancient, could be applied to all the modern castes found in India, and "meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it. seven racial types. The three fundamental races are – Dravidian, Mongoloid and Indo-Aryan. Four secondary races- Cytho-Dravidian, Aryo-Dravidian, Mongolo-Dravidian and Pre-Dravidian. (extract from Wikipedia).

Risley was also behind the Bengal Partition along communal lines in 1905. On the Bengal Partition, as the Home secretary to the Government of India, in 1904, H. H. Risley, made an official noting:

Bengal united is a power. Bengal divided will pull in several different ways. That is what the Congress leaders feel: their apprehensions are perfectly correct and they form one of the great merits of the scheme"¦ One of our main objects is to split up and thereby weaken a solid body of opponents to our rule. (via The Long View: The Partition Before Partition – NYTimes.com).

Caste system is a hoax, invented by the British, to expand and keep up power in India...............

 

[LalTopi]

Yes, but they're Northies too no ?

And by the time the direct wave from Africa comes, Central Asian migrations have started

Hi LB, MI, KS,
Thanks for the debate (heated or not) and the links. I am still trying to get my head around this whole genetic thing about what it is to be an Indian (northie or southie) and to what extent the AIT theory has any relevance if at all.

However, it seems to me that we all, northie and southie, probably have common (maternal) ancestors not just from the first haplogroup M migration wave, but also from the N wave and its subgroups:

Haplogroup N (mtDNA) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I.e people stayed behind in India (our ancestors) dating back to 50,000 years ago during the period of these waves.

See also following quotes:

From https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/lan/en/atlas.html
This (M) haplogroup is prevalent among populations living in the southern part of Pakistan and Northwest India, where it constitues around 30-50% of the mitochondial gene pool, depending on population.

From Haplogroup M (mtDNA) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The highest frequencies worldwide of macrohaplogroup M are observed in Asia, specifically in India and Bangladesh, where frequencies range from 60%-80%

The above are maternal (mtDNA) haplogroups, and of course there are the paternal groups which are also relavent (e.g. the M17 marker I mentioned earlier).

Not sure whether this has been done before, but I think it might be useful to our debate to create a summary list of Indian relavent haplogroups and markers, including percentage of relavance to the population. We can then also look at the European markers, to see whether there is actually any merit in some of the studies that seem to support the AIT.

However, regardless of AIT, it seems that the main ancestry of the whole population is out of India (after Africa), and not out of Europe.

 

[The Messiah]

I will simplify it even though it is not simplistic...migrations into India:

1. Tribals
2. Dravidians/south Indians migrate from middle east
3. The rest from north west and central asia

In that order.

 

[The Messiah]

Todas and Irulas live in South..moreover the migration happened through central India..not north.

and how they did they reach central ?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I will simplify it even though it is not simplistic...migrations into India:

1. Tribals
2. Dravidians/south Indians migrate from middle east
3. The rest from north west and central asia

In that order.

The point is everyone think they have figured it out.

When did Chetas, Lions, Rhinos migrate here and where did the Tiger come from?

 

[TTCUSM]

I will simplify it even though it is not simplistic...migrations into India:

1. Tribals
2. Dravidians/south Indians migrate from middle east
3. The rest from north west and central asia

In that order.

Messiah,

Please read my posts earlier in this thread.
Indo-Aryans migrated out of India to Persia, not the other way around.

 

[pmaitra]

Caste System: Its' Life & Birth � 2ndlook

Caste System: Its' Life & Birth

I have replied inline in blue:

100 years of a hoax
Strangely, one British hoax that has not been called out, even sixty-five years after independence, is the creation of the caste-system narrative. While many Indians know of Max Muller's motivations (I don't know what his motivations were.) in creation of the Aryan Invasion Theory, very few are aware of how one man created the equally enduring myth of the caste system.

Herbert Hope Risley.

The ethnographer behind the caste system in the 1901 census. In-charge of the 1901 census, as per his biographer

Risley believed (Many Indian historians believe too; and so do I.) that the varna, however ancient, could be applied (Even if varna and caste are different, they are conflate in Hindu society.) to all the modern castes found in India, and "meant to identify and place several hundred million Indians within it. seven racial types. The three fundamental races are – Dravidian, Mongoloid and Indo-Aryan. Four secondary races- Cytho-Dravidian, Aryo-Dravidian, Mongolo-Dravidian and Pre-Dravidian. (extract from Wikipedia).

Risley was also behind the Bengal Partition along communal lines in 1905. On the Bengal Partition, as the Home secretary to the Government of India, in 1904, H. H. Risley, made an official noting:

Bengal united is a power. Bengal divided will pull in several different ways. That is what the Congress leaders feel: their apprehensions are perfectly correct and they form one of the great merits of the scheme"¦ One of our main objects is to split up and thereby weaken a solid body of opponents to our rule. (via The Long View: The Partition Before Partition – NYTimes.com).

Caste system is a hoax, invented by the British, to expand and keep up power in India............... (I don't think caste system is a hoax. In fact, it predates the arrival of the British in India.)

 

[HeinzGud]

Again no way this shows the timing of the migrants. I still stand by my stance. The south Indians must have come first . Most genetic studies say the same.

More research needed to acsertain the same, or to disprove it

This may sound bit crazy but there is a high possibility that south Indians might have come from ancient Sri Lanka because there have been numerous findings of ancient civilized societies dating back to 125,000 years even challenging Africa....

Findings at Iranamadu indicate that there were Paeolithic people in Sri Lanka as early as 300,000 BP.[2] There is definite evidence of settlements by prehistoric peoples in Sri Lanka by about 125,000 BP. These people made tools of quartz and chert which are assignable to the Middle Palaeolithic period

Prehistory of Sri Lanka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archaeological excavations undertaken since the late 20th century have indicated that the island already supported human inhabitants some 75,000 to 125,000 years ago. The earliest occupants of the region were, like other Paleolithic peoples, hunters and gatherers who made and used fairly rough stone tools

Sri Lanka :: Prehistoric record -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia