Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[Shaitan]

While you are at it, might as well point me where the AMT event is discussed or mentioned in Rig Veda

You say steppe migration happened, but you again debate if it's proven in the vedas? Does Sanskrit share a lingustic link with Persian? Does early Indic and Iranic religions have similarities?And overall, that's just on branch the Indo-Iranian branch, all of the Indo-European language, early religions have similar ancestral four runners. So where did the origin start? Outside India with AMT or from within India?

But we have a massive problem with the timeline you are suggesting which has almost no evidence behind it.
Moving on.

What is the massive problem with the timeline? None exists in IVC population in N.India, Iran, and Central Asia. Steppe genes didnt even exist in the Central Asian BMAC culture as well, until outlier steppes genes occurs around 2000 BC, similarly to the Southern steppes. So the migration was starting around 2000 BC even in the BMAC culture. So the date of around 2000-1500 BC for the steppe incursion of North India isnt out of the question at all.


The main population of the BMAC carried no ancestry from Steppe pastoralists and did not contribute substantially to later South Asians. However, Steppe pastoralist ancestry appeared in outlier individuals at BMAC sites by the turn of the second millennium BCE around the same time as it appeared on the southern Steppe. Using data from ancient individuals from the Swat Valley of northernmost South Asia, we show that Steppe ancestry then integrated further south in the first half of the second millennium BCE, contributing up to 30% of the ancestry of modern groups in South Asia. The Steppe ancestry in South Asia has the same profile as that in Bronze Age Eastern Europe, tracking a movement of people that affected both regions and that likely spread the unique features shared between IndoIranian and Balto-Slavic languages.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2019_Science_NarasimhanPatterson_CentralSouthAsia.pdf

1. Steppe Pastoralist-Derived Ancestry Arrived in Turan by 2100 BCE. We find no evidence of Steppe pastoralist-derived ancestry in groups at BMAC sites prior to 2100 BCE, but multiple outlier individuals buried at these sites show that by ~2100–1700 BCE, BMAC communities were regularly interacted with peoples carrying such ancestry.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6822619/

When are you proposing massive steppe genes in North India? When it existed only in outlier groups in BMAC, Southern steppes around 2000 BC?

Gandhara grave culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is what is associated with beginning semi nomadic Aryan migrations in North India. The timeline is perfectly fine.

 

[Shaitan]

I am going to ask you a simple question. Do you have contemporary genetic data for people living in North India proper(i.e UP, Bihar and Bengal) from same time period as that of IVC skeleton ?
Not some conjecture, but real hard genetic data ?

We need those samples, but to look at Iranian farmer, Tribal, and probably Asian markers, not steppe. That did not exist in IVC, did not exist in Central Asia before 2100 BC, I can assume it didnt exist in Bihar, or Bengal at 2500 BC.

 

[Heat]

You say steppe migration happened, but you again debate if it's proven in the vedas? Does Sanskrit share a lingustic link with Persian? Does early Indic and Iranic religions have similarities?And overall, that's just on branch the Indo-Iranian branch, all of the Indo-European language, early religions have similar ancestral four runners. So where did the origin start? Outside India with AMT or from within India?

Because you are the one suggesting a 2000 BC - 1500 BC time frame for AMT, just when the Rig Veda was getting written down for first time. Blame yourself.

The main population of the BMAC carried no ancestry from Steppe pastoralists and did not contribute substantially to later South Asians. However, Steppe pastoralist ancestry appeared in outlier individuals at BMAC sites by the turn of the second millennium BCE around the same time as it appeared on the southern Steppe. Using data from ancient individuals from the Swat Valley of northernmost South Asia, we show that Steppe ancestry then integrated further south in the first half of the second millennium BCE, contributing up to 30% of the ancestry of modern groups in South Asia. The Steppe ancestry in South Asia has the same profile as that in Bronze Age Eastern Europe, tracking a movement of people that affected both regions and that likely spread the unique features shared between IndoIranian and Balto-Slavic languages.

I asked you for genetic data from North India proper and you are telling me about BMAC ? UP and Uzbekistan are same place for you ?


Ancient DNA has not yet been found for the ANI and ASI, so for these the range is inferred statistically
- The formation of human populationsin South and Central AsiaVagheesh M. Narasimhanetal.

Here right from your own source. They basically interpolated our genetic data, and you are treating that interpolated timeline as godsend, lol.

Kuch merit hai humare side mein tabhi to hum debate kar rahe hai, however you are too proud to acknowledge that.

 

[Shaitan]

I asked you for genetic data from North India proper and you are telling me about BMAC ? UP and Uzbekistan are same place for you ?

When do YOU propose a major steppe migration into India? Bihar, Bengal are irrelevant when Central Asia, IVC did not have steppe genes before 2100 BC. Those steppe genes migrated from around the European steppes into Southern Steppes, Central Asia, into IVC. Are your proposing that steppes, pastoralist genes magically hopped over all these and influenced Bihar and Bengal before Central Asia and IVC? What is your proposal? I gave you people's closer to the source point than Bihar and Bengal. Bihar and Bengal even today have less steppe genes than modern North India and Pakistan. What are you on about?

Only thing relevant you will get out of Bengali DNA then is if it had any Mongoloid influence, and the percentage of Iranian farmer, tribal genes.

Because you are the one suggesting a 2000 BC - 1500 BC time frame for AMT, just when the Rig Veda was getting written down for first time. Blame yourself.

This is not just me, but mainstream academia. We only see those genes occur in outlier groups in Central Asia around 2000 BC, so the migration down to India more or less begins at that point. It fits pretty well actually.

 

[Heat]

When do YOU propose a major steppe migration into India?

Certainly before 2000 BC.

Bihar, Bengal are irrelevant when Central Asia, IVC did not have steppe genes before 2100 BC.

Given that genetic matter is not recoverable from very old skeletons, I won't put 2100 BC as a date in stone. It just says that in 2100 BC Steppe gene was present in Afghanistan.

 

[Heat]

Also if you look at the distribution of R1 haplogroup throughout Eurasia, the R1a haplogroup has highest frequency in India(that too among West Bengal Brahmins), while R1b haplogroup has highest frequency in Europe.

The R haplogroup is associated with the mythical Aryans.

Very interesting.

 

[Shaitan]

Certainly before 2000 BC.

You act as if the Rig Vegas was scripted in stone and carbon dated to decently accurate point like the grave samples. The Vegas are associated the steppe migrations, date of those will be influenced by the migration of steppe peoples. We have only outliers popping up in Central Asia around 2000 BC, point blank. The migration into IVC is around 2000-1500 BC, no different to what modern mainstream says. It's not the steppe migration that need to be pushed back, it's the Vegas that need to put on a earlier dating. One is first hand evidence, other is based on those first hand evidence.

 

[A chauhan]

Literally the so called scientist say we came from Israel. I have isreali DNA.

I am Mool Nivasi bro

To me AIT never happened, AMT happened but it is willfully exaggerated to discredit Hindu civilization.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Well yeah, I used 23andme, It said I shared ancestry this guy: https://dnaconsultants.com/product/primeval-dna-test/malta-boy/#:~:text=Mal’ta Boy’s remains were carbon dated to between,had brown eyes, dark hair and freckled skin. .
I plugged it into Gedmatch and got this:
View attachment 57217
I am a Kumaon Brahmin with lineage from the Rajasthan.

This result makes no sense at all.

 

[Heat]

it's the Vegas that need to put on a earlier dating.

Good luck doing that given that it basically worships a river that has been dead since last 4000 years.

Here, ladies and gentlemen, we see a fine move of mental gymnastics.
Applause should keep coming.

 

[Shaitan]

Also if you look at the distribution of R1 haplogroup throughout Eurasia, the R1a haplogroup has highest frequency in India, while R1b haplogroup has highest frequency in Europe.

The R haplogroup is associated with the mythical Aryans.

Very interesting.

Actually the oldest R1a branch are found in the EuroAsian steppes, this is significantly older than any found in India, Central Asia, etc. Where the steppe Yamanyas were located. Hmm, interesting.

The oldest aDNA sample of R1a-M420 lineage found in east Europe was at Vasylivka, dated ca. 8690 BC, at the same site of a later sample of haplogroup R1b1a2-V88, dated ca. 7250 BC. These and other three Mesolithic samples from Ukraine show an intermediate situation between EHG and Scandinavian Hunter-Gatherer ancestry. Later, during the transition of the Mesolithic to Neolithic, a decrease in ANE ancestry and an increase in WHG ancestry is observed.

EHG ⋆ MediKeep

medikeep.eu

Good luck doing that given that it basically worships a river that has been dead since last 4000 years.

Here, ladies and gentlemen, we see a fine move of mental gymnastics.
Applause should keep coming.

Hey look, asks for steppe genes in Bengal, Bihar when none exists in IVC, Central Asia, etc. Closer to the source of the oldest steppe genes. When most Biharis and Bengalis dont even have the high about of steppe ancestry as North Indians and Pakistanis. Round of applause.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Well yeah, I used 23andme, It said I shared ancestry this guy: https://dnaconsultants.com/product/primeval-dna-test/malta-boy/#:~:text=Mal’ta Boy’s remains were carbon dated to between,had brown eyes, dark hair and freckled skin. .
I plugged it into Gedmatch and got this:
View attachment 57217
I am a Kumaon Brahmin with lineage from the Rajasthan.

I assume they derive ancestory based on Haplogroup so which haplogroup here is exclusively South Indian, Balloch, Caucasian, North eastern?
And what is that 1% American are they referring to Indigenous North American Indian?

 

[Suryavanshi]

The most interesting thing to me is the H Haplogroup.
It is Mostly prominent in South Indian with a little bit of presence in the Mediterraneans.

 

[Heat]

Hey look, asks for steppe genes in Bengal, Bihar when none exists in IVC, Central Asia, etc.

I asked for any data, and you furnished none. Joke is on you buddy.

Actually the oldest R1a branch are found in the EuroAsian steppes, this is significantly older than any found in India, Central Asia, etc. Where the steppe Yamanyas were located. Hmm, interesting.

The R1a and R1b split happened 25000 years ago, right during the last Ice age.
Did the R1a people hunkered down in modern day Turkey under ice sheets for 20000 years and then suddenly decided to sprint in all possible directions ?
Absurd question, but that's what your posts suggest.

Also, remember India's climate is not good in preserving genetic data.

 

[Shaitan]

I asked for any data, and you furnished none. Joke is on you buddy.

You provided absolutely nothing, but a piece of literature whos whole dating revolves around the migration of people outside India. The dated and genetic grave sites from Central Asia, Southern Steppes, IVC are first hand evidence, you're not going to push back the migration into India, you have to give a later date to the Vedas. You want Bihari, Bengal genes when they are the furthest from the source of steppe genes compared to Central Asia and IVC. You're trying to pass that some pastoralist herders bypassed all these regions into Bengal and Bihar and effected them over Central Asia and IVC.

I asked for any data, and you furnished none. Joke is on you buddy.


The R1a and R1b split happened 25000 years ago, right during the last Ice age.
Did the R1a people hunkered down in modern day Turkey under ice sheets for 20000 years and then suddenly decided to sprint in all possible directions ?
Absurd question, but that's what your posts suggest.

Also, remember India's climate is not good in preserving genetic data.

What are you on about? We have IVC, Central Asian samples they dont have no steppe genes at all before 2500-2100 BC. The Eurasian ones predate it by 1000s of years. You still asking for irrelevant Bengali, Bihari genes? You want Tamil and Malayali ones too?

 

[Haldilal]

David Reich 2018, noting the presence of some Indo-European languages such as Hittite in parts of ancient Anatolia, argues that "the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians." Yet, Reich also notes that "...the evidence here is circumstantial as no ancient DNA from the Hittites themselves has yet been published."Kristinaen Kanasianea, in an interview with Der Spiegel in May 2018, stated that the Yamnaya culture may have had a predecessor at the Caucasus, where "proto-proto-Indo-European" was spoken.

Recent DNA-research has led to renewed suggestions of a Caucasian homeland for the 'proto-Indo-Europeans'. According to Kroonen et al. (2018), Damgaard et al. (2018) ancient Anatolia "show no indication of a large-scale intrusion of a steppe population." They further note that this lends support to the Indo Hittitez hypothesis, according to which both proto-Anatolian and proto-Indo-European split-off from a common mother language "no later than the 4th millennium BCE." Haak et al. (2015) states that "the Armenian plateau hypothesis gains in plausibility" since the Yamnaya partly descended from a Near Eastern population, which resembles present-day Armenians."

Wang et al. (2018) note that the Caucasus served as a corridor for gene flow between the steppe and cultures south of the Caucasus during the Eneolithic and the Bronze Age, stating that this "opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus." However, Wang et al. also comment that the most recent genetic evidence supports an expansion of proto-Indo-Europeans through the steppe, noting: "but the latest ancient DNA results from South Asia also lend weight to a spread of Indo-European languages "via the steppe belt. The spread of some or all of the proto-Indo-European branches would have been possible via the North Caucasus and Pontic region and from there, along with pastoralist expansions, to the heart of Europe. This scenario finds support from the well attested and now widely documented 'Steppe Ancestry in European populations, the postulate of increasingly patrilinear societies in the wake of these expansions (exemplified by R1a/R1b), as attested in the latest study on the Bell Beaker phenomenon."

 

[Heat]

You want Bihari, Bengal genes when they are the furthest from the source of steppe genes compared to Central Asia and IVC.

You sure ?

In India, high frequencies of this haplogroup is observed in West Bengal Brahmins (72%)
In Pakistan it is found at 71% among the Mohanna tribe in Sindh province
Zerjal et al found R1a1a in 64% of a sample of the Tajiks of Tajikistan and 63% of a sample of the Kyrgyz of Kyrgyzstan.

Do you even have any idea how a R1a gene carrier looks like ? I think not.
As I said R1a peaks in Brahmins (and to some degree Kshatriya) of UP, Bihar and Bengal.

That's why data is needed from these high frequency regions. If genetic data prior to 1500 BC finds no R1a in this region, then yes the AMT migration is a recent event.

Look at this with a factual POV, mod. You don't need to go berserk on us.

 

[Shaitan]

You sure ?



Do you even have any idea how a R1a gene carrier looks like ? I think not.
As I said R1a peaks in Brahmins (and to some degree Kshatriya) of UP, Bihar and Bengal.

That's why data is needed from these high frequency regions. If genetic data prior to 1500 BC finds no R1a in this region, then yes the AMT migration is a recent event.

Look at this with a factual POV, mod. You don't need to go berserk on us.

Matter a fact, Indo-Iranians carry R-Z93 one of the youngest branch. But also originating outside of India.

Again, get this through your head, it only started to migrate around 2000 BC in Central Asia alone. So the 2000-1500 BC for the migration of steppe peoples into India, as in the mainstream is perfectly fine. It occurs high in Bengali Brahmin not the average Bengali. Those Brahmins migrated from the North West India recently, not no 2500 BC - there wasnt even a Brahmin class then. Not even a average person in IVC or Central Asia 2500 BC will have steppe genes, let alone a Bengali.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Not even a average person in IVC or Central Asia 2500 BC will have steppe genes, let alone a Bengali.

For that U would have to collect data from among several castes in the Bengal Region to correlate with the theory.

 

[Haldilal]

Ladne do Inko mujhe kya Karna hai, I am Isreali.