Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

Kay

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@Kay @sgarg all major early civilizations of the world first used hieroglyph script then switch to alphabets. The best example would be the Egyptians.
True. Let's see if historians can come up with dates as to when and how it evolved form Indus hieroglyphs to early Sanskrit.
Wikipedia does explain the slow death of Indus Valley Civilization and birth of Vedic culture without AIT.
Indus Valley Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cemetery H culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But more details would be welcome.
 
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Kay

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Veda is divided into four parts just like a book can be divided into four parts. That does not mean the book was written by four authors or at different times.

There is no rig-vedic and later vedic. There is a problem with translation by ignorant fools.

A lot of commie historian who do not understand a single word of Veda comment on it.
This is not about the four Vedas, but about the two ages of the Vedic culture - early vedic and later vedic. Early Vedic culture is also referred to as the Rig Vedic culture. I am sorry for the confusion.
 

sgarg

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Veda is not a history book. Veda does not tell about Saraswati river. Vedic culture existed in entire Bharat, not only Saraswati river basin.

It is not correct to place some special significance to a river.

There is no difference in rigveda and other veda. The entire veda was taught during first 9 years of education at the Gurukul.
 

sgarg

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This is not about the four Vedas, but about the two ages of the Vedic culture - early vedic and later vedic. Early Vedic culture is also referred to as the Rig Vedic culture. I am sorry for the confusion.
This is nothing but speculation. The only periods are vedic and post-vedic.

We are in post-vedic period today also.

Vedic people did not construct huge buildings as pomp and show is not there in Vedic culture. Even king lived in modest buildings.

This land has been inhabited constantly so building materials have been reused over and over again. kiln fired bricks were used in Mahabharat war time and used today also. India's society is ancient and lot of things have been there for a very long time.
 
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sgarg

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@Kay @sgarg all major early civilizations of the world first used hieroglyph script then switch to alphabets. The best example would be the Egyptians.
Not in India. Indians wrote on paper (bhoj-patra). Clay tablets come from Mesopotamia culture. The clay tablets found in India is due to traders.

There were ports in the lower reaches of Indus and Saraswati rivers. River ports were very important in ancient times, and rivers were the highways for commerce.

Sanskrit was never written in hieroglyph.

The difficulty with establishing history is that we want to look for evidence and evidence may take us on the wrong path. Books do not last very long. Vedic people burned their dead and did not build mausoleums (building a house for dead is against vedic practices).

The biggest poof is the remarkable continuity of knowledge and culture of India. This tell the story much better than a clay tablet with hieroglyphs.
 
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Sambha ka Boss

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Vedic people burned their dead and did not build mausoleums (building a house for dead is against vedic practices).
Seems you haven't read Rigveda about Rigvedic funeral, Rigveda actually mention two ways of funerals Agnidagdha(cremation) and Anagnidagdha (non-Cremation) in Rigvedic verse 10.15.14 (I have seen that verse). moreover, Brahmi script and Indus script could be connected if we could find a missing link, till then we have to wait for it.
 

Kay

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This is nothing but speculation. The only periods are vedic and post-vedic.

We are in post-vedic period today also.

Vedic people did not construct huge buildings as pomp and show is not there in Vedic culture. Even king lived in modest buildings.

This land has been inhabited constantly so building materials have been reused over and over again. kiln fired bricks were used in Mahabharat war time and used today also. India's society is ancient and lot of things have been there for a very long time.
I get your point that many aspects of vedic life has remained unchanged for long time. But a student of history would want to know things like when Indians started using iron, when was the horse domesticated, chariots discovered/invented, etc. now that its established that Vedic civilization followed Indus Valley Civilization. Also, the classification of vedic civilization is based on cultures (pottery cultures) today - and like every Historical culture don't have strict boundaries.
Actually Vedic people did build large cities and buildings especially in the late Vedic ages.
 
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Kay

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Not in India. Indians wrote on paper (bhoj-patra). Clay tablets come from Mesopotamia culture. The clay tablets found in India is due to traders.

There were ports in the lower reaches of Indus and Saraswati rivers. River ports were very important in ancient times, and rivers were the highways for commerce.

Sanskrit was never written in hieroglyph.

The difficulty with establishing history is that we want to look for evidence and evidence may take us on the wrong path. Books do not last very long. Vedic people burned their dead and did not build mausoleums (building a house for dead is against vedic practices).

The biggest poof is the remarkable continuity of knowledge and culture of India. This tell the story much better than a clay tablet with hieroglyphs.
Isn't it with everything else including medical and physical science. You learn something. If its proven wrong, you unlearn and re-learn. But you cannot teach folklore and opinions. As a science teacher, how can you bypass scientific evidence?
 

Sambha ka Boss

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Veda is not a history book. Veda does not tell about Saraswati river. Vedic culture existed in entire Bharat, not only Saraswati river basin.

It is not correct to place some special significance to a river.

There is no difference in rigveda and other veda. The entire veda was taught during first 9 years of education at the Gurukul.
Rigveda indeed mention about Saraswati. One Rigvedic verse mention Saraswati river situated between Satluj and Yamuna while other Rigveda mentions about Saraswati river flowing from mountains to the sea and Ghaggar-Hakra river system matches this description and satellite mapping shows that it was indeed once a great river flowing from Lower Himalayas in Himachal Pradesh until Rann of Kutch almost parallel to Indus river to east of it. Vedic culture was first confined to Sapta Sindhu from there entire Indo-Gangetic plains and then to South India to accommodate all of India under a single civilization. Even during early phase of Hinduism, Indra was the most revered deity and while Shiva/Rudra worshiping was less popular however with the evolution of Hinduism, Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma became the supreme deity in Hinduism while worshiping Indra became less popular. Earlier Hinduism was also more about non-vegetarianism and animal sacrifice but with the evolution it became more centred around non-violence.
 

Sambha ka Boss

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True. Let's see if historians can come up with dates as to when and how it evolved form Indus hieroglyphs to early Sanskrit.
Wikipedia does explain the slow death of Indus Valley Civilization and birth of Vedic culture without AIT.
Indus Valley Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cemetery H culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But more details would be welcome.
Cemetry H is one of the three phases of Late Indus valley civilization after the Saraswati dried. Other two were Jhunkar phase in Sindh and Rangpur phase in Gujarat.

 

sgarg

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I get your point that many aspects of vedic life has remained unchanged for long time. But a student of history would want to know things like when Indians started using iron, when was the horse domesticated, chariots discovered/invented, etc. now that its established that Vedic civilization followed Indus Valley Civilization. Also, the classification of vedic civilization is based on cultures (pottery cultures) today - and like every Historical culture don't have strict boundaries.
Actually Vedic people did build large cities and buildings especially in the late Vedic ages.
OK. But how would "historian" know that?

Need to know something is appreciated but the methods must be scientific.

Use of metals is extremely old. Only difference is the quantity. We are in age of machines now. People knew metals at 10000BC but production was small. Metals objects are hard to find as metals has always been recycled.

Pottery, coins etc tell a story but telling their age is not so easy.

It is always written history that is most reliable. Unfortunately written history of India is destroyed.

Vedic people always had large cities. The bigger fact is decline of cities in the post-vedic period. However it will difficult to prove as bricks do not last very long plus building materials have been reused.
 
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TejasMK3

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Excavations show Harappan site died as Saraswati river dried

Utpal Kumar | Mail Today | New Delhi, May 22, 2015 | UPDATED 17:05 IST


Archaeological Survey of India, in collaboration with Deccan College of Pune and scientists from Korea's Seoul National University, are excavating a site in Rakhigarhi of Haryana.The Indus Valley civilisation, popularly known as Harappan civilisation, has been a puzzle for several decades now. But with the ongoing excavation in Rakhigarhi, Haryana, jointly conducted by archaeologists of Deccan College, Pune, and Haryana Department of Archaeology, along with forensic scientists from Seoul National University, South Korea, history is on the verge of being rewritten.

"After Rakhigarhi, we can say that the Harappan civilisation was at least 1,000 years older than earlier thought. And contrary to our longheld, conventional understanding, it first emerged in the east and then moved west, originating as it did in the heart of the Ghaggar-Hakra basin, regarded by many as the place where the Saraswati once flowed," says Vasant Shinde, vice-chancellor of Deccan College who heads the team of archeologists - the largest Harappan site overtaking Mohenjodaro in Pakistan's Sind province.

What's going to ruffle quite a few feathers, is Harappa's supposed Saraswati connection, especially the way the drying up of one probably led to the decline of the other.

Rewriting history

Shinde says that prior to his excavation it was believed that Rakhigarhi had all the three phases of the Harappan culture - 'Early', 'Mature' and 'Late'. "Our work proves that this place doesn't have the Late Harappan phase. It collapsed around 2000 BC," says he, adding: "I believe Rakhigarhi's sudden demise can be explained with the drying up of the Saraswati in 2000 BC."

Shinde's claim is supported by Amarendra Nath, former ASI's archaeology director who had carried out excavation in Rakhigarhi between 1997 and 2000. "The ASI has so far discovered over 2,000 Harappan sites spread over Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan and Gujarat. Of these, about 1,400 can be located in the Saraswati belt alone, while the Indus belt doesn't have more than 300-400 sites," he informs, adding: "We, in the ASI, had reached this conclusion long back. It's just that this information is coming out now."

But not everyone is impressed. A Delhi University professor, wishing to remain anonymous, thinks this entire saga can only be analysed through the politicoideological prism, rather than the academic. "For me, Saraswati is a mythical river and nothing more. It's not a mere coincidence that all these things are coming up soon after the BJP came to power. It's an attempt to rewrite the history, the Aryan history," says he.

Shinde seems circumspect on the Aryan migration issue. "It's for historians to decide. But as an archeologist, I can say with confidence that for at least 7,000 years, there has been no migration into this region. You go to the village today, and you will feel you are walking through the same, old Harappan civilisation thriving 5,000 years ago. The style of pottery is similar. So are the food habits," says he.

Nath is more direct. "There will always be a set of historians who will continue to deny the existence of the Saraswati - to meet their ideological and personal requirements. They can afford to do that as history can be interpretational. (But) Not archaeology, which is based on solid evidences and facts. And evidences for long have been supporting the existence of the Saraswati in the region. Satellite imageries have proved beyond doubt the existence of a 'mighty' river drying up 4,000 years ago," Nath says.

Michel Danino, author of The Lost River: On the Trail of the Sarasvati, reminds of the dilemma . "If we accept the Vedic hymns' description of a river flowing from the mountain to the sea and located between the Yamuna and Sutlej, the Ghaggar remains the sole candidate. But as we now know, this description can only apply to the third millennium BCE or earlier, an epoch that does not fit with the conventional scenario of a second millennium Aryan migration into India," says the French author.

Nath has a solution to bridge this 'historical' divide. "Why don't the historians objecting to our claims set up their own body of archeologists and excavate these sites? Facts don't change with the change of experts. Sadly, they won't come up with such initiatives," says he.

Neelesh Jadhao, co-director of the excavation , is excited that Korean forensic experts would conduct DNA tests on the excavated skeletons. "This time we have ensured skeletons don't get contaminated. We would know for the first time what the Harappans looked like, what they ate, what was the colour of their skin or hair, etc. It will add a new perspective to the Harappan study," says he.
 

dude00720

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This one could possibly settle the aryan vs dravidian debate. if we find similar dna to current inhabitants, then dravidian concept will not exist and we can focus on actually deciphering the indus script.
Excavations show Harappan site died as Saraswati river dried
Utpal Kumar | Mail Today | New Delhi, May 22, 2015 | UPDATED 17:05 IST


Archaeological Survey of India, in collaboration with Deccan College of Pune and scientists from Korea's Seoul National University, are excavating a site in Rakhigarhi of Haryana.The Indus Valley civilisation, popularly known as Harappan civilisation, has been a puzzle for several decades now. But with the ongoing excavation in Rakhigarhi, Haryana, jointly conducted by archaeologists of Deccan College, Pune, and Haryana Department of Archaeology, along with forensic scientists from Seoul National University, South Korea, history is on the verge of being rewritten.

"After Rakhigarhi, we can say that the Harappan civilisation was at least 1,000 years older than earlier thought. And contrary to our longheld, conventional understanding, it first emerged in the east and then moved west, originating as it did in the heart of the Ghaggar-Hakra basin, regarded by many as the place where the Saraswati once flowed," says Vasant Shinde, vice-chancellor of Deccan College who heads the team of archeologists - the largest Harappan site overtaking Mohenjodaro in Pakistan's Sind province.

What's going to ruffle quite a few feathers, is Harappa's supposed Saraswati connection, especially the way the drying up of one probably led to the decline of the other.

Rewriting history

Shinde says that prior to his excavation it was believed that Rakhigarhi had all the three phases of the Harappan culture - 'Early', 'Mature' and 'Late'. "Our work proves that this place doesn't have the Late Harappan phase. It collapsed around 2000 BC," says he, adding: "I believe Rakhigarhi's sudden demise can be explained with the drying up of the Saraswati in 2000 BC."

Shinde's claim is supported by Amarendra Nath, former ASI's archaeology director who had carried out excavation in Rakhigarhi between 1997 and 2000. "The ASI has so far discovered over 2,000 Harappan sites spread over Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan and Gujarat. Of these, about 1,400 can be located in the Saraswati belt alone, while the Indus belt doesn't have more than 300-400 sites," he informs, adding: "We, in the ASI, had reached this conclusion long back. It's just that this information is coming out now."

But not everyone is impressed. A Delhi University professor, wishing to remain anonymous, thinks this entire saga can only be analysed through the politicoideological prism, rather than the academic. "For me, Saraswati is a mythical river and nothing more. It's not a mere coincidence that all these things are coming up soon after the BJP came to power. It's an attempt to rewrite the history, the Aryan history," says he.

Shinde seems circumspect on the Aryan migration issue. "It's for historians to decide. But as an archeologist, I can say with confidence that for at least 7,000 years, there has been no migration into this region. You go to the village today, and you will feel you are walking through the same, old Harappan civilisation thriving 5,000 years ago. The style of pottery is similar. So are the food habits," says he.

Nath is more direct. "There will always be a set of historians who will continue to deny the existence of the Saraswati - to meet their ideological and personal requirements. They can afford to do that as history can be interpretational. (But) Not archaeology, which is based on solid evidences and facts. And evidences for long have been supporting the existence of the Saraswati in the region. Satellite imageries have proved beyond doubt the existence of a 'mighty' river drying up 4,000 years ago," Nath says.

Michel Danino, author of The Lost River: On the Trail of the Sarasvati, reminds of the dilemma . "If we accept the Vedic hymns' description of a river flowing from the mountain to the sea and located between the Yamuna and Sutlej, the Ghaggar remains the sole candidate. But as we now know, this description can only apply to the third millennium BCE or earlier, an epoch that does not fit with the conventional scenario of a second millennium Aryan migration into India," says the French author.

Nath has a solution to bridge this 'historical' divide. "Why don't the historians objecting to our claims set up their own body of archeologists and excavate these sites? Facts don't change with the change of experts. Sadly, they won't come up with such initiatives," says he.

Neelesh Jadhao, co-director of the excavation , is excited that Korean forensic experts would conduct DNA tests on the excavated skeletons. "This time we have ensured skeletons don't get contaminated. We would know for the first time what the Harappans looked like, what they ate, what was the colour of their skin or hair, etc. It will add a new perspective to the Harappan study," says he.
 

LalTopi

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This is yet another nail in the coffin of this Frankenstein Aryan Invasion monster. unfortunately the monster will not die easily, not even when genetic studies from leading western universities published in accredited International journals prove against AIT. Still some time to go I'm afraid; but I'm hopefull of a major find in the Indus/Sarasvati sites that will kill the indologists for good. Maybe genetic, maybe script, or artefacts but it's only a matter of time.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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When US court dismissed Aryan invasion theory!!

http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/xXujja7aZkNg5XSc8w8jJL/Aryans-in-America.html

Now that we are all tanned and rested and ready, it is time for us to hear the story of a man called Bhagat Singh Thind.
Thind was born on 3 October 1892 in Taragarh Talawa village, in the Amritsar district of the state of Punjab. After graduating from Amritsar’s Khalsa College, Thind’s interests swung towards spiritual matters. He immersed himself not only in the Sikh religion but also in the metaphysical writings of the Americans Ralph Waldo Emerson, Walt Whitman and Henry David Thoreau. So much so that in July 1912 he sailed from Calcutta, bound for the US. Thind arrived in Seattle on 4 July 1913.
He enrolled at the University of California, Berkeley, and then paid for it by working in a lumber mill. Later he would briefly serve in the US Army during the First World War, returning to his studies in December 1918 after leaving the uniform with an honourable discharge. Amidst all this Thind also found the time to become one of the early members of the Ghadar movement, an association of mainly Punjabi immigrants in North America who sought to topple the British Raj. (The extent and nature of Thind’s association with the Ghadar movement is somewhat unclear.)
All of which is good but not particularly unique given that many Ghadarites were Berkeley students.
What is truly interesting about Thind is that between 1918 and 1936, he became a citizen of the US three times. Along the way Thind was involved in what must be one of the more bizarre cases to be ever presented in front of the US Supreme Court.
Thind’s persistence to be naturalized may have been rooted in his desire to become a lawyer, a profession that at the time was restricted to US citizens. His first application was successful and he was granted citizenship on 9 December 1918.
Four days later, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) issued a letter revoking his citizenship. The reason given was that Thind was racially ineligible to apply for citizenship.
Let us pause for a moment here. At the time, US citizenship laws only allowed applicants from two races. “Free white persons” and, after the Civil War, “aliens of African nativity and persons of African descent”.
So what about Indians? Or Chinese? There was much ambiguity. And some Indians took advantage of this ambiguity by convincing the authorities that upper caste Hindus were, in fact, white people of the Caucasian race.
Thind, perhaps, was hoping to leverage this loophole with his first application. And he almost made it. Only for INS to intervene.
Then a year later Thind applied again. INS objected again, and the case went to court in 1920. This time there was a political angle in addition to the racial angle. The US was pressured by the British to deny citizenships to anyone involved in the Ghadar movement. The US government obliged, but the District Court of Oregon did not. Thind was granted citizenship for a second time.
Unrelenting, the US government escalated his case to the Supreme Court. They reverted to the old racial issue.
Thus in 1923 the US Supreme Court was faced with the question, and I quote, “Is a high-caste Hindu, of full Indian blood, born at Amritsar, Punjab, India, a white person… ?”
The strategy chosen by Thind’s lawyers was to convince the Supreme Court that an Aryan invasion of India had taken place in ancient times, whereby a Caucasian race had swept into the country and subjugated the aboriginal Dravidians. These Aryans later became the upper-caste Hindus, of which Bhagat Singh Thind was an excellent example. (Yes, yes, Thind was a Sikh and not a Hindu really. Wink, wink, nudge.)
The terms and tone in which Thind’s lawyer describes the lower castes—“aboriginal Indian mongoloids”—is not pleasant.
Sadly for Thind the court didn’t buy it. It mostly dismissed the Aryan theory. And then went further: “This children of English, French, German, Italian, Scandinavian, and other European parentage, quickly merge into the mass of our population and lose the distinctive hallmarks of their European origin. On the other hand, it cannot be doubted that the children born in this country of Hindu parents would retain indefinitely the clear evidence of their ancestry.”
In the landmark judgement the court is careful to say that it is not a matter of racial superiority or inferiority. Just that “the great body of our people instinctively… reject the thought of assimilation”.
His application was rejected. Only for Thind to apply again in 1936 and secure citizenship, this time under a new allowance for aliens who served in the US Army.
Thind went on to have a long and prosperous life in the US as a spiritualist and writer. He married an American woman with whom he had two children.
Thind, who died in 1967, appears to have been a nice man. Except for that brief bit of nastiness in the Supreme Court. But I suppose one must cut him some slack. It is not easy for aliens trying to find a place in societies that are so great that they are terrified of assimilation.
 

pmaitra

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There is no difference in rigveda and other veda. The entire veda was taught during first 9 years of education at the Gurukul.
Rig Veda is not in Sanskrit. The other three are in Sanskrit. Therein lies the difference.

The language used in Rig Veda may be called pre-Sanskrit, i.e., the language that was used prior to the refinement of the language by Panini. I am not saying there was no refinement. There were attempts by others, but Panini's refinement came at a time when the verses of Rig Veda already existed.
 

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