Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

TrueSpirit

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There is no such thing as "Vedic Sanskrit". Look up the definition of the word "Sanskrit" (संस्कृतम् ). Attaching any adjective to this word makes no sense and contradicts the meaning.
What I have stated is something as commonly evident as "monkeys & crows in India". They are rampant even in the region I belong to (high altitude, upwards of 7000 fts.).:lol:

Coming to the point, there is no dearth of pathshaala, gurukuls, institutions in North Indian cities/villages (see, Srinagar, Kullu, Ayodhya, Varanasi, Allahabad, Haridwar, Ujjain, a few even in Delhi near Karolbagh Metro & one in Lucknow, near RD parade ground etc., who offer mainstream as well as specialized courses (both formal/semi-formal) in Vedic Sanskrit. I am only talking of the places I have been to & spent some time. I do not know of the several other possible destinations offering this.

So, I see that it is not the Sanskrit I was taught in school (till 10th standard). It is also somewhat different from the prayers/hymns our families offer. It appears to be an older form with a larger repertoire of swars & vyanjana'. It appears to be closer to how this language could have been initially, before it was codified. Anyway, differences between the 2 forms of Sanskrit could be googled as well, so kindly help yourself.

However, unlike my family, I am not well-versed in the domain of languages anyway, so I may be off-the-mark owing to my limited knowledge & even lesser interest.

I would not get into lot of technicalities because I am no linguistic expert here but more than that, I have absolutely no intention to argue on something I have personally experienced all along. Please do not take it otherwise. Experts can continue their debate on AIT/AMT, endlessly. :wave:
 
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civfanatic

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I have only indicated the direction and spread of Aryan culture. I'm not the one calling people between Iran and West Europe 'blithering idiots'.
But you still have not explained why the direction and spread of Aryan culture was so phenomenally one-sided in the first place, if we assume North India to be the PIE homeland. Saying that IE languages were somehow more "proper" than all other languages between Iran and West Europe essentially amounts to saying that all the people living in between those regions were blithering idiots, and is not a real explanation at all. What is a "proper" and "improper" language anyway, and who decides that?

If people move, so does the language. If they are more civilized or powerful than another lot, obviously superstratum can occur.
That is not what superstratum means. You are talking about the substratum case, not superstratum.

I am discussing a timeframe from LGM to 2nd milennium BC. not sure which one you're referring to.
Yes, there was no such thing as 'Indic civilization' during that time frame.


Could mean a common parent (probably pre LGM). Could mean a non-exclusive and free flowing existence of the languages and their speakers after the last Ice Age melted away. Sharing is not just between Sanskrit and Tamil. Sharing is among all IE languages as well. The families aren't as exclusive as they're taught to be. Interestingly, the so called PIE roots of Agricultural words are missing from those IE languages (not Sanskrit) that are supposed to have been spoken at the stipulated Aryan urheimats outside India.
The introduction of Sanskrit vocabulary to South India is something which happened relatively recently, i.e. within the last 2000 years. How many Sanskrit words do you find in early Sangam literature?

Perfectly normal when languages evolve in isolation for a long period of time. How is it relavant by the way? I'm not disputing the existence of the two language families.
Given the existence of these two greatly different language families on the Indian Subcontinent, and that the northern portion of the Subcontinent is being claimed as the PIE, it warrants explanation as to how the IE language family was able to somehow spread all the way to Britain but not even neighboring regions in South India. That was my original question.
 

civfanatic

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What I have stated is something as commonly evident as "monkeys & crows in India". They are rampant even in the region I belong to (high altitude, upwards of 7000 fts.).:lol:
Instead of writing posts that don't say anything, just look up what the word "Sanskrit" means. It is simple and easy to do.
 

TrueSpirit

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Instead of writing posts that don't say anything, just look up what the word "Sanskrit" means. It is simple and easy to do.
Instead of selectively replying, try to read through my previous post & then tell that there is nothing like Classcial Sanskrit. This is what I wrote:

Vedic Sanskrit differs from Classical Sanskrit to an extent comparable to the difference between Homeric Greek and Classical Greek. Tiwari lists the following principal differences between the two:

Vedic Sanskrit had a voiceless bilabial fricative (/ɸ/, called upadhmānÄ«ya) and a voiceless velar fricative (/x/, called jihvāmÅ«lÄ«ya)—which used to occur when the breath visarga (अः) appeared before voiceless labial and velar consonants respectively. Both of them were lost in Classical Sanskrit to give way to the simple visarga.

Vedic Sanskrit had a retroflex lateral approximant (/ɭ/) (ळ) as well as its aspirated counterpart /ɭʰ/ (ळ्ह्), which were lost in Classical Sanskrit, to be replaced with the corresponding plosives /ɖ/ (ड) and /ɖʱ/ (ढ). (Varies by region; Vedic pronunciations are still in common use in some regions, e.g. Southern India, including Maharashtra.)

The pronunciations of syllabic /ɻ̩/ (ऋ), /l̩/ (लृ) and their long counterparts no longer retained their pure pronunciations, but had started to be pronounced as short and long /ɻi/ (रि) and /li/ (ल्रि).

The vowels e (ए) and o (ओ) were actually realized in Vedic Sanskrit as diphthongs /ai/ and /au/, but they became pure monophthongs /eː/ and /oː/ in Classical Sanskrit
.
The vowels ai (ऐ) and au (औ) were actually realized in Vedic Sanskrit as hiatus /aːi/ (आइ) and /aːu/ (आउ), but they became diphthongs /ai/ (अइ) and /au/ (अउ) in Classical Sanskrit.

The Prātishākhyas claim that the dental consonants were articulated from the root of the teeth (dantamūlīya), but they became pure dentals later. This included the /r/, which later became retroflex.

Vedic Sanskrit had a pitch accent which could even change the meaning of the words, and was still in use in Panini's time, as we can infer by his use of devices to indicate its position. At some latter time, this was replaced by a stress accent limited to the second to fourth syllables from the end.

Vedic Sanskrit often allowed two like vowels to come together without merger during Sandhi.
Or else, one can go around shouting that he is the most accomplished historian in the world. So, he would reject all experts like Panini, Macdonell, Bruno, Lindner, Parpola (trust me, they knew better) etc. & would also comfortably overlook all evidence thrown right at his face.

When I am mentioning that there are Vedic Sanskrit institutions all over North India, it means that they exist & they impart knowledge in the said stream. That you don't have a clue about ground-reality, is your limitation.

Unless you have some valid points to refute, please do not post just anything, that mean nothing. Anyway, I do not expect you to understand much about phonetics, particularly Sanskrit phonetics due to the language barrier, which is completely understandable & appreciated.
 
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LurkerBaba

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'Vedic Sanskrit' is an artificial term, I used it within quotes in my earlier posts. The 'Vedic Sanskrit' institutions you speak of are simply places where the Vedic chant is learnt.
 

civfanatic

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Instead of selectively replying, try to read through my previous post & then tell that there is nothing like Classcial Sanskrit. This is what I wrote:
That's not what you wrote. That is a passage that you copied and pasted from Wikipedia.

Sanskrit means "perfect speech", i.e. THE perfect speech. There is no "Vedic Sanskrit" or "proto-Sanskrit" or "Classical Sanskrit" or anything. There is only ONE Sanskrit, only one "perfect speech", which is the language whose grammatical structure was laid in stone by Panini.

The term "Vedic Sanskrit" is simply a term of convenience used to refer to the language of the Vedas. This language is not Sanskrit at all (again, refer to the definition of Sanskrit), but may have been a predecessor. Actually, it is doubtful whether the phonetics of the Vedas even constitute a language; they might just be a rather meaningless chant and assortment of sounds.

Or else, one can go around shouting that he is the most accomplished historian in the world. So, he would reject all experts like Panini, Macdonell, Bruno, Lindner, Parpola (trust me, they knew better) etc. & would also comfortably overlook all evidence thrown right at his face.
Since you appear to know so much about this topic, please show me where Panini (or any other ancient Indian for that matter) says that the Vedas are written in Sanskrit.
 

TrueSpirit

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@civfanatic

That's not what you wrote. That is a passage that you copied and pasted from Wikipedia.
Now, see below. Source (wiki) is quoted even before the start of passage.

Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest attested language of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family.. This was the prevalent language in the reason till 500BC, when cultural, political and linguistic factors all contribute to the end of the Vedic period. The codification of Vedic ritual reached its peak. Darius I of Persia invaded the Indus valley and the political center of the Indo-Aryan kingdoms shifted eastward, to the Gangetic plain. Around this time (4th century BC), Panini fixes the grammar of Classical Sanskrit. Source: Wiki

Difference between the two:
Vedic Sanskrit differs from Classical Sanskrit to an extent comparable to the difference between Homeric Greek and Classical Greek. Tiwari lists the following principal differences between the two:

Vedic Sanskrit had a voiceless bilabial fricative (/ɸ/, called upadhmānÄ«ya) and a voiceless velar fricative (/x/, called jihvāmÅ«lÄ«ya)—which used to occur when the breath visarga (अः) appeared before voiceless labial and velar consonants respectively. Both of them were lost in Classical Sanskrit to give way to the simple visarga.

Vedic Sanskrit had a retroflex lateral approximant (/ɭ/) (ळ) as well as its aspirated counterpart /ɭʰ/ (ळ्ह्), which were lost in Classical Sanskrit, to be replaced with the corresponding plosives /ɖ/ (ड) and /ɖʱ/ (ढ). (Varies by region; Vedic pronunciations are still in common use in some regions, e.g. Southern India, including Maharashtra.)

The pronunciations of syllabic /ɻ̩/ (ऋ), /l̩/ (लृ) and their long counterparts no longer retained their pure pronunciations, but had started to be pronounced as short and long /ɻi/ (रि) and /li/ (ल्रि).

The vowels e (ए) and o (ओ) were actually realized in Vedic Sanskrit as diphthongs /ai/ and /au/, but they became pure monophthongs /eː/ and /oː/ in Classical Sanskrit
.
The vowels ai (ऐ) and au (औ) were actually realized in Vedic Sanskrit as hiatus /aːi/ (आइ) and /aːu/ (आउ), but they became diphthongs /ai/ (अइ) and /au/ (अउ) in Classical Sanskrit.

The Prātishākhyas claim that the dental consonants were articulated from the root of the teeth (dantamūlīya), but they became pure dentals later. This included the /r/, which later became retroflex.

Vedic Sanskrit had a pitch accent which could even change the meaning of the words, and was still in use in Panini's time, as we can infer by his use of devices to indicate its position. At some latter time, this was replaced by a stress accent limited to the second to fourth syllables from the end.

Vedic Sanskrit often allowed two like vowels to come together without merger during Sandhi.
Now do you agree, that you read selectively ?
 
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civfanatic

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@civfanatic

Now, see below. Source (wiki) is quoted even before the start of passage.
There was no citation to Wiki in the post that I quoted (Post #704). That passage was copied-pasted straight from Wiki.

Anyway, it is good that you provided a citation in earlier posts.
 
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Virendra

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But you still have not explained why the direction and spread of Aryan culture was so phenomenally one-sided in the first place,
Because there is no Aryan culture outside India and there is no point at all in Aryan literature where they mention their so called central asian lebensraum. Not even once. I'm not saying that no one ever came into India in ancient times.
Obivously if the Indians spread as ambassadors of our civilization, there wiill be people from influenced areas who will come to India. When the west completely influences and overawes the third world today, don't the people want to go see the west at least for once. Some would dream of settling there.
In future if someone saw minor Indian genes in US population and claimed US to have been civilied by India :rolleyes: .. well .. :hehe:

if we assume North India to be the PIE homeland. Saying that IE languages were somehow more "proper" than all other languages between Iran and West Europe essentially amounts to saying that all the people living in between those regions were blithering idiots, and is not a real explanation at all. What is a "proper" and "improper" language anyway, and who decides that?
Languages don't decide who is an idiot and whom not. Though they may tell about the level of civilization. Still calling someone a blithering idiot just because he didn't speak a particular kind of language, is a bit too much.
I don't know of any evidence indicating to other competing civilization to have existed in the proposed Aryan urheimats of Central Asia or Eurasia. A competing civilization that could either refine a language as marvelous as Sanskrit or as original as the parent of Sanskrit. Should I expect that from the roaming nomads of central asian pastures?

That is not what superstratum means. You are talking about the substratum case, not superstratum.
Superstratum means the incoming and dominating group leave its imprint on the host population and its language. That is exactly what I mean by the influence of the outgoing Aryans of India.

Yes, there was no such thing as 'Indic civilization' during that time frame.
Are you sure? Harappans predate 2nd milennium, Vedas and Farming predate Harappans. Anyway my point is, when there are 2 peer languages in adjacent areas with no conflict whatsoever, expansion is possible only in a relative vaccum. South was boxed between north and thee sea. Only the north had a chance to scout.

The introduction of Sanskrit vocabulary to South India is something which happened relatively recently, i.e. within the last 2000 years.
The mixing would start soon after the Ice Age ends and people from coastal areas are thrown deep into mainlands. Nobody is waiting for a timetable of 2nd milennium B.C.E.

How many Sanskrit words do you find in early Sangam literature?
Why should I have to completely fuse two languages to show civilization? Our civilization has always been a lose federation, binding by ethos not be uniformity of language or anything else.
Valmiki, the man who wrote Ramayana was himself a Tamil author and had participated in the first Tamil Sangam. The 358th poem in Purananuru is by Valmiki.
Tholkappiyam, one of the oldest manuscripts on Tamil grammar mentions Valmiki as one of the Tamil poets whose works has to be referenced and learnt from.

Regards,
Virendra
 

TrueSpirit

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There was no citation to Wiki in the post that I quoted (Post #704). Anyway, it is good that you provided a citation in earlier posts.
Mate, post (Post #704) was copied from my previous post itself. Why don't you have a look ? I copied only the relevant portion for your reference because you missed it. Was not aware that you were more interested in counting mangoes, rather than trees (if you get what I mean).

That passage was copied-pasted straight from Wiki.
There was a reason why that portion was in italics & quotes all along. You are still leveling baseless, & basically ingenuous allegation of some sort of mini-plagiarism :lol:, where none was intended or present. You got confused because you did not bother to read my original post in my reply to @pmaitra's post.

Hope that clarifies & settles it.
 
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pmaitra

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Well, that's incorrect. There is Vedic Sanskrit & there is Classical Sanskrit (the Sanskrit we are taught in NCERT, ICSE syllabus).
Wrong - ICSE or CBSE board books notwithstanding.

What I have stated is something as commonly evident as "monkeys & crows in India". They are rampant even in the region I belong to (high altitude, upwards of 7000 fts.).:lol:
Now this is what I call is meaningless banter. Sorry.
 

TrueSpirit

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Wrong - ICSE or CBSE board books notwithstanding.
What is wrong here ? Are you of the view that Ved are not written in Sanskrit ? Care to elaborate your take on this ?

Another thing I would like to understand....how comfortable are you with Sanskrit? I mean, was it ever a part of your academics, or any usage ever ?

Based on your individual understanding, I would like to share few things.

Now this is what I call is meaningless banter. Sorry.
Nothing to be sorry about. It was a failed attempt at situational humour.:laugh:
 

pmaitra

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What is wrong here ? Are you of the view that Ved are not written in Sanskrit ? Care to elaborate your take on this ?

Another thing I would like to understand....how comfortable are you with Sanskrit? I mean, was it ever a part of your academics, or any usage ever ?

Based on your individual understanding, I would like to share few things.



Nothing to be sorry about. It was a failed attempt at situational humour.:laugh:
Mate,

There is only one Sanskrit. Please read several posts by @civfanatic. Adding an adjective to qualify the word Sanskrit is meaningless.

Many authors call the language of the Rig Veda as old Sanskrit or whatever adjective they please. The fact is, Rig Veda is not in Sanskrit.
 
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SPIEZ

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Because there is no Aryan culture outside India and there is no point at all in Aryan literature where they mention their so called central asian lebensraum. Not even once. I'm not saying that no one ever came into India in ancient times.
Obivously if the Indians spread as ambassadors of our civilization, there wiill be people from influenced areas who will come to India. When the west completely influences and overawes the third world today, don't the people want to go see the west at least for once. Some would dream of settling there.
In future if someone saw minor Indian genes in US population and claimed US to have been civilied by India :rolleyes: .. well .. :hehe:


Languages don't decide who is an idiot and whom not. Though they may tell about the level of civilization. Still calling someone a blithering idiot just because he didn't speak a particular kind of language, is a bit too much.
I don't know of any evidence indicating to other competing civilization to have existed in the proposed Aryan urheimats of Central Asia or Eurasia. A competing civilization that could either refine a language as marvelous as Sanskrit or as original as the parent of Sanskrit. Should I expect that from the roaming nomads of central asian pastures?


Superstratum means the incoming and dominating group leave its imprint on the host population and its language. That is exactly what I mean by the influence of the outgoing Aryans of India.

Are you sure? Harappans predate 2nd milennium, Vedas and Farming predate Harappans. Anyway my point is, when there are 2 peer languages in adjacent areas with no conflict whatsoever, expansion is possible only in a relative vaccum. South was boxed between north and thee sea. Only the north had a chance to scout.


The mixing would start soon after the Ice Age ends and people from coastal areas are thrown deep into mainlands. Nobody is waiting for a timetable of 2nd milennium B.C.E.

Why should I have to completely fuse two languages to show civilization? Our civilization has always been a lose federation, binding by ethos not be uniformity of language or anything else.
Valmiki, the man who wrote Ramayana was himself a Tamil author and had participated in the first Tamil Sangam. The 358th poem in Purananuru is by Valmiki.
Tholkappiyam, one of the oldest manuscripts on Tamil grammar mentions Valmiki as one of the Tamil poets whose works has to be referenced and learnt from.

Regards,
Virendra
Hats off to one of the most wonderful posts so far.
 

pmaitra

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If that's the premise we are going to start from, I rest my case. This stand itself is an untenable position to me. As usual, lets agree to disagree. :namaste:
We can certainly agree to disagree on that. :)
 

civfanatic

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Because there is no Aryan culture outside India and there is no point at all in Aryan literature where they mention their so called central asian lebensraum. Not even once. I'm not saying that no one ever came into India in ancient times.
What is "Aryan culture"? Indians certainly were not the only people who called themselves as Aryas.

And what is "Aryan literature"? Are we talking about only Vedic Aryan literature, or also that of Iranian peoples, who also called themselves Aryans? It is true that the Vedic Aryans do not mention Central Asia anywhere, because they were most likely indigenous people (or mostly indigenous) of NW India who gradually adopted Aryan culture. Moreover, the Vedas were probably composed at a time when the Vedic Aryans regarded themselves as the "natives" of Sapta-Sindhu, even if they originally came from outside.

Are you sure? Harappans predate 2nd milennium, Vedas and Farming predate Harappans. Anyway my point is, when there are 2 peer languages in adjacent areas with no conflict whatsoever, expansion is possible only in a relative vaccum. South was boxed between north and thee sea. Only the north had a chance to scout.
The Harappans should not be conflated with "Indic" civilization, which emerged much later. Most of India during this time-frame was not yet home to civilization, as the IVC only covered a small portion of the Indian subcontinent. The eastern Indo-Gangetic plain, Central India, Deccan, and South India had no civilization whatsoever worth talking about. Urban civilization even mildly comparable to that of the Harappans would not exist in other parts of India until the mid-1st millennium B.C.E., with the rise of Magadha and other mahajanapadas. In South India and the Deccan, urban civilization would not emerge until even later, in the early centuries C.E.

So this again brings us to my original question, which has still not yet been satisfactorily answered: if NW India was the PIE urheimat, why didn't IE languages spread to South India, which was far closer to NW India than Britain and France. There was certainly no advanced civilization in South India at this time, which would somehow make it immune to adopting Aryan languages.

I don't know of any evidence indicating to other competing civilization to have existed in the proposed Aryan urheimats of Central Asia or Eurasia. A competing civilization that could either refine a language as marvelous as Sanskrit or as original as the parent of Sanskrit. Should I expect that from the roaming nomads of central asian pastures?
Central Asia was home to the BMAC which was a sophisticated urban civilization like the IVC. Moreover, there also existed great pre-Aryan civilizations in southwest Iran, namely at Elam (modern Khuzestan) and Anshan (modern Fars). The original homeland of the Persians was in southern Central Asia and Afghanistan. This region was known as Ariana to the Greeks, and its inhabitants as Arianoi (Aryans). The Persians did not fully establish themselves on the Iranian plateau until the first millennium B.C.E., by which time the Aryanization of the ancient Elamite and Anshanite populations of southwest Iran was well under way.

As for Sanskrit, it didn't even exist in the time frame that we are discussing. It was not Sanskrit which spread across Eurasia, but common IE linguistic elements which gave rise to a plethora of different regional languages. The emergence of Sanskrit was a by-product of the resurgence of civilization in NW India in the mid-1st millennium B.C.E., long after the time period in question.


Obivously if the Indians spread as ambassadors of our civilization, there wiill be people from influenced areas who will come to India. When the west completely influences and overawes the third world today, don't the people want to go see the west at least for once. Some would dream of settling there.
In future if someone saw minor Indian genes in US population and claimed US to have been civilied by India :rolleyes: .. well .. :hehe:
So, where are the great civilizational traces left behind by the outward migrations of the Vedic Aryans in Britain and Scandinavia? I cannot find them.

Superstratum means the incoming and dominating group leave its imprint on the host population and its language. That is exactly what I mean by the influence of the outgoing Aryans of India.
A superstratum case is one where an incoming and dominating group assimilates into the larger population over which they rule, and adopts their language. In the process, they leave an influence on the native language, which is called the superstratum; the native language itself, however, remains intact. The substratum case is the opposite scenario, where the language of an intruding group is successfully imposed on the larger population, but in the process acquires and retains some elements of the native language. The native influence on the new language is called the substratum.

The IE expansions were characterized by the substratum case, not the superstratum. The entire nature of the languages spanning between Western Europe and North India changed and took on many common characteristics, enabling later linguistics to classify them as belonging to one huge language family. Of course, these IE languages also retained elements of their pre-Aryan linguistic heritage, as can be seen by the numerous words of Dravidian or Austro-Asiatic origin in Sanskrit. On the other hand, an example of the superstratum case can be seen with the Sanskritic influence on Dravidian and Malay languages. There are numerous Malay words which are of Sanskrit origin, such as "mandala", "bhumiputra", and even "Malaya" itself. But this influence is only superficial, as the mass of the population continues to speak Malay languages, and not an IE one like Sanskrit. The same is true for the Sanskrit superstratum in Dravidian languages.

The mixing would start soon after the Ice Age ends and people from coastal areas are thrown deep into mainlands. Nobody is waiting for a timetable of 2nd milennium B.C.E.
There is no evidence of IE language in South India before the Mauryan expansion into the region. Subsequently, regional states in the region which emerged in the post-Mauryan period, including the Satavahanas and Pallavas, used IE languages (Sanskrit and Prakrits) as the court and literary languages. However, these languages were never spoken by the masses as a whole, who continued to speak Dravidian languages. Eventually, the native languages like Tamil, Telugu, and Kannada displaced Prakrits and then Sanskrit as the major court and literary languages, and were patronized by states and elites. But by this time, of course, there was already a significant Sanskrit superstratum in these languages.
 

Virendra

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What is "Aryan culture"? Indians certainly were not the only people who called themselves as Aryas.

And what is "Aryan literature"? Are we talking about only Vedic Aryan literature, or also that of Iranian peoples, who also called themselves Aryans? It is true that the Vedic Aryans do not mention Central Asia anywhere, because they were most likely indigenous people (or mostly indigenous) of NW India who gradually adopted Aryan culture. Moreover, the Vedas were probably composed at a time when the Vedic Aryans regarded themselves as the "natives" of Sapta-Sindhu, even if they originally came from outside.
And they told you that? :noidea:

The Harappans should not be conflated with "Indic" civilization, which emerged much later. Most of India during this time-frame was not yet home to civilization, as the IVC only covered a small portion of the Indian subcontinent. The eastern Indo-Gangetic plain, Central India, Deccan, and South India had no civilization whatsoever worth talking about. Urban civilization even mildly comparable to that of the Harappans would not exist in other parts of India until the mid-1st millennium B.C.E., with the rise of Magadha and other mahajanapadas. In South India and the Deccan, urban civilization would not emerge until even later, in the early centuries C.E.

So this again brings us to my original question, which has still not yet been satisfactorily answered: if NW India was the PIE urheimat, why didn't IE languages spread to South India, which was far closer to NW India than Britain and France. There was certainly no advanced civilization in South India at this time, which would somehow make it immune to adopting Aryan languages.
We don't know that for sure. Where was the Ramayana and Mahabharata happening if we didn't have civilization before Harappans?
Did the Harappans just woke up one day and started successfully developing everything from scratch or received all advancement from aliens? Definitely not.
The pandyas didn't come out of thin air. The Tamil Sangams didn't happen between apes in caves.

Central Asia was home to the BMAC which was a sophisticated urban civilization like the IVC. Moreover, there also existed great pre-Aryan civilizations in southwest Iran, namely at Elam (modern Khuzestan) and Anshan (modern Fars). The original homeland of the Persians was in southern Central Asia and Afghanistan. This region was known as Ariana to the Greeks, and its inhabitants as Arianoi (Aryans). The Persians did not fully establish themselves on the Iranian plateau until the first millennium B.C.E., by which time the Aryanization of the ancient Elamite and Anshanite populations of southwest Iran was well under way.
And what is to say all this happened before vedic Aryans stepped out? Plates with yogic postures, Om symbol, fire altars.

As for Sanskrit, it didn't even exist in the time frame that we are discussing. It was not Sanskrit which spread across Eurasia, but common IE linguistic elements which gave rise to a plethora of different regional languages. The emergence of Sanskrit was a by-product of the resurgence of civilization in NW India in the mid-1st millennium B.C.E., long after the time period in question.
Whatever language it was, it had to be superb enough to give birth to such a widespread language family. It gave birth to marvelous languages like Sanskrit and then died in labor pain, leaving nothing behind for corroboration. I don't know what to believe.
Anyway, like I said one or the other roots of farming are missing from various IE languages outside present India, but not Sanskrit.
Genetic research on mouse, horse, cow all matches an outward migration from India.

So, where are the great civilizational traces left behind by the outward migrations of the Vedic Aryans in Britain and Scandinavia? I cannot find them.
I cannot find them either. We've only explored so little of Indus Sarasvati civilization yet, what to speak of Britain and Scandinavia.
Nor have I found traces left behind by any incoming migration of the vedic aryans in India.

A superstratum case is one where an incoming and dominating group assimilates into the larger population over which they rule, and adopts their language. In the process, they leave an influence on the native language, which is called the superstratum; the native language itself, however, remains intact. The substratum case is the opposite scenario, where the language of an intruding group is successfully imposed on the larger population, but in the process acquires and retains some elements of the native language. The native influence on the new language is called the substratum.

The IE expansions were characterized by the substratum case, not the superstratum. The entire nature of the languages spanning between Western Europe and North India changed and took on many common characteristics, enabling later linguistics to classify them as belonging to one huge language family. Of course, these IE languages also retained elements of their pre-Aryan linguistic heritage, as can be seen by the numerous words of Dravidian or Austro-Asiatic origin in Sanskrit. On the other hand, an example of the superstratum case can be seen with the Sanskritic influence on Dravidian and Malay languages. There are numerous Malay words which are of Sanskrit origin, such as "mandala", "bhumiputra", and even "Malaya" itself. But this influence is only superficial, as the mass of the population continues to speak Malay languages, and not an IE one like Sanskrit. The same is true for the Sanskrit superstratum in Dravidian languages.

There is no evidence of IE language in South India before the Mauryan expansion into the region. Subsequently, regional states in the region which emerged in the post-Mauryan period, including the Satavahanas and Pallavas, used IE languages (Sanskrit and Prakrits) as the court and literary languages. However, these languages were never spoken by the masses as a whole, who continued to speak Dravidian languages. Eventually, the native languages like Tamil, Telugu, and Kannada displaced Prakrits and then Sanskrit as the major court and literary languages, and were patronized by states and elites. But by this time, of course, there was already a significant Sanskrit superstratum in these languages.
I'm not a linguistic scholar to debate in length on this, but figures like Seeta, Ravana and Hanuman conversing with each other cannot be possible without multiple common languages spoken widely throughout the country.

Regards,
Virendra
 

pmaitra

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We don't know that for sure. Where was the Ramayana and Mahabharata happening if we didn't have civilization before Harappans?
Did the Harappans just woke up one day and started developing everything from scratch or received all advancement from aliens? Definitely not.
Speaking of Mahabharata and Ramayana, did it really happen? If it did, when did it happen? Did it happen before IVC, during IVC, or after IVC?

Now, I will counter your rhetoric with some of mine, so please forgive my insolence.
No, the Harappan did not wake up one fine day and start building things from scratch, neither did the Egyptians wake up one fine day and build the Pyramids. Similarly, the "having origin in India" Sanskrit speakers did not wake up one fine day and say to themselves "Yo, let's go to the West, to Persia, and Europe and spread our language, but we must never cross into the East, beyond the Karakoram, because the PLA is stationed there." :D


Genetic research on mouse, horse, cow all matches an outward migration from India.
Now, that is really interesting. I keep hearing this "genetic research has shown" - this and that. Really? The mouse, the horse, and the cow, originated in India?

Sir, the horse originated in North America, as per this source. Coming to the origin of cows, looks like it occurred in Europe and Central Asia, as per this source. Regarding the origin of mice, perhaps we should look further east, as per this source.
 

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