Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase

p2prada

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Arjun is likely to get an 1800HP engine which is 2/3rd the size of present engine. The rifled cannon is always more accurate in mobile engagements as the round after leaving the barrel is not disturbed as much as it gets disturbed while being fired from a smoothbore gun. Its a phenomenon called bullet jump.
Sir, Arjun is planned to get a 1500HP engine. Maybe the 1800HP engine can be developed for a Mk3.

Also, I am sure @Damian can explain why rifled guns haven't demonstrated superior accuracy over smooth bore since the 80s.

Arjun Barrel has longer life inspite of being rifled compared with any T-series tank in the world.
The EFC of the ARDE gun is stated to be 500. The T-90s 2A46M-2/5 has demonstrated an EFC of 1500. The T-72s 2A46 has undergone an upgrade within India, called MAPLE, which increased the gun's life to 1800 EFC from the previous 250. Of course the erosion factors depend on the type of shell fired, but smooth bores have much longer lives because the same applies even to rifled bores.

The new Russian gun, 2A82 may demonstrate higher EFC, but that is just speculation from my side. Nevertheless it is a 55 Cal gun and is an option on the T-90MS. I believe it is also to be used on the new Russian 4th gen tank being developed.
 
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ersakthivel

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Dear 'ersakthivel'

You seemed to be very angry. Simmer down a bit. May be you are right that it is Russian colonization of Indian generals thinking. Is there a easy solution to it. Did you ever think that buying hardware in US or Europe any different?

Yes, Russians are acting a bit stupid. Wait until you deal with the Americans.

Indian manufacturing techniques together with inherently weak military leadership, who simply cannot make up their mind or write unheard of specs for equipment to be purchased together with shortage of cash, in fact are responsible for this mess.

Indian hrdware is declared unfit and rejected. Their eyes are set on glossy brochures of the hardware and hard driving salesmen who come bearing gifts and make tall claims are adding to this mess.
no it is not my view ,it is an excerpt from a post in broadsword.
 

methos

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Let me play the bad guy: T-90MS is the better choice.
Indian comparative trials (even though noone can provide any information about the set-up of these trials) showed that the basic T-90S was less accurate and less mobile. The T-90MS has a enlarged engine and a more modern fire control system. It has a TUSK-like armour configuration and (which is in my opinion the greatest shortcoming of the Arjun) it doesn't have a rifled gun but a smoothbore one.

Now one problem in this discussions is that there is generally a lack of proper sources, since most informations come from (self-published) websites and blogs contradicting each other. I recall however that the projected weight of the Arjun Mk 2 was somewhere about 67 metric tons, which means that it simply is less mobile in all aspects than the T-90S and T-90MS (higher ground-pressure, less HP/t; maybe it has a marginal higher top-speed). An increase in weight by just 2 metric tons already increases ground-pressure to T-90 level.

The T-90MS, a new, upgraded version of the T-90S that India bought in 2001, is regarded as well suited for the extreme cold of Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh, where the two new armoured brigades will operate
Nuff' said. Why the ruckus then?
 

sasi

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Arjun Barrel has longer life inspite of being rifled compared with any T-series tank in the world.
With same metallurgy if smoothbore is used its barrel life will be extended nearly 50%. But range will be reduced.
 
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Ray

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Is it possible that the Army can scuttle a programme if they did not have some worthwhile reasons?

I don't think that the bureaucrats would allow that since they are also as good an expert as us out here and elsewhere who comment so knowledgeably.

Dud Westland helicopters were bought overriding the IAF.

And so was the German subs over the Swedish.

I wonder if the military can just scuttle anything because of gut feeling!
 

Damian

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Ok first things first about accuracy of rifled guns and smoothbore ones.

1) Iraq and longest conventional ammunition shot. It is truth that Challenger 1 armed with L11A5 rifled 120mm gun was capable to destroy T-55 at a range of 5,000m but. It is still not known what type of ammunition was used, if it was less probable APFSDS or more probabale HESH, if the latter then still, it is not worth for future because HESH is not effective against even simple, spaced armor arrays due to it's working mechanism (it need to hit homogeneus target to work properly) so both older vehicles and fortifications can be cheaply upgraded and become invurnable to HESH. Look at Pakistani Al Zarrar tanks, they use some sort of spaced protection, probably effective against HESH. Also in case of Iraq scenario, nobody still knows how many rounds were fired, but definetly not one as far as I recall from what guys that were in or close to Royal Armor Corps said to me.

2) In all NATO competitions, tanks with rifled guns not matter what FCS was used, were defeated by tanks armed with smoothbore guns. For example trails in Greece where Leopard 2A5, M1A2 and Leclerc armed with smoothbore guns, defeated Challenger 2 with rifled gun, even despite the fact that Challenger 2 have comparable fire control system, actually Challenger 2 FCS is based on M1A2 FCS.

3) The technical characteristics of guns places smoothbore over rifled, and were discussed on forums many times.

So just accept the reality that rifled guns are thing of the past, that HESH ammunition is thing of the past. Both o them will loose more and more of their effectiveness in future.

There are allready good alternatives, for example HESH can be replaced with much more efficent programmable HE ammunition. For example US AMP round that is in development, during tests not only shown good effectiveness against fortifications and targets in the open (also in programmable airburst mode) but also was capable to penetrate side turret armor of T-55 which is 160mm thick. Just imagine what happend with a fully combat loaded tank of such type, when such round get inside with all these armor fragments that it takes, and not only that, but it also explodes moments later inside, killing crew and detonating ammunition stored in a tank.

Think what it can do with lighter vehicles like BMP's.

Not only that, but programming to airburst, enables tank crew to engage even hidden targets behind sandberms and other obstacles. These are things that HESH can't do.

There is a hope however, India can purchase licence for foreing smoothbore gun, or redesign current Arjun gun in to smoothbore design.
 

Damian

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The M1 A1's ground pressure is arrived by dividing the weight of the tank by M1A1 tank's track area.
The arjun's ground pressure is arrived by dividing the weight of the tank by arjun tank's track area.

The ground pressure for T-72 is 0.84 or close to it.It is quite possible that army GSQR for arjun too gave the same ground pressure per square inch for arjun,accordingly the track width of arjun must have been designed for that parameter.

And people have given you as many table of contents for this information.
If you want a source for arjun's ground pressure from a book written before the induction of arjun how can that be done?
Kunal too posted about it.
You dont know what is the ground pressure of arjun is, won't accept even if many people say what it is? Then what is the point of having this thread?

Separate ammo storage is there for arjun ,you yourself had a long discussed in the arjun thread with kunal about it.And a detailed discussion about blow off panels was also there.Now you are saying that it is not there in arjun.Should we start all over again?
You do not understand simple things.

Arjun do not have the same ground pressure as T-72, as both are completely different vehicles with different size and weight. Arjun will be closer to M1A1 in terms of ground pressure as both have similiar size and weight.

As for separated ammunition storage, you didn't understand from that discussion anything do you? All currently avaiable sources proves that Arjun do not have safe ammunition storage, this is a fact, if there will be even a single photografp from inside that will show otherwise, we will have proof, but right now, we have only your fanboy wishfull thinking.

But you know what, you are another example of what I pointed out long time ago. You do not represent any knowledge about tanks, and you do not have any constructive criticism abour Arjun neither any other tank.

You know who is responsible for a mess in India? People like you, who instead of educating themselfs in discussed subject and later use constructive criticism in discussion, were or bashing something completely or prising it. People like you are responsible for arming Arjun in a weapon system that do not have any perspectives. People like you are responsible for flaws in design, because they were not learning from experiences of other nations and later discuss them to properly induct many solutions for use by IA. Simple as that, a fanboyism killing the industry and reducing capabilities of armed forces.
 
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pmaitra

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A spinning projectile is always more accurate than one that is not spinning. Many smoothbore projectiles use fins to spin after it leaves the barrel.

HEP or HESH does benefit from the spin, but has got nothing to do with accuracy of the projectile.

@Damian is saying what he has said many times over - that many countries have adopted smoothbore over rifle. As usual, no explanation why this claim that "smoothbore is more accurate than, or as accurate as rifle."
 
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Decklander

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@Damian,
I fail to understand the logic you have. How do you measure mobility of a tank? Its based on ground pressure and HP/Ton. The ground pressure dictates the kind of terrain a tank can operate in and Hp/Ton gives you its pulling power over the gradient, accelaration and speed. I hope you have read about battle of al-almien and Battles in Russia during second world war. The german tanks got bogged down as they were heavy with very high ground pressure. the T-series out smarted them as they had better suspension and lower ground pressure. seems you got your logic and fundas wrong bro. I am an Ex-NDA and have done lot of studies for my Staff college and I am well versed in amphi ops besides being an ex fighter pilot.
 
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p2prada

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Fins provide stability, not spin. Normally spinning reduces linear kinetic energy, so this results in decreased energy during impact. Spinning is actually not desirable in an APFSDS because you want to retain KE for the impact. So, the designs try to limit spin as much as possible.

In a rifled gun, the spinning provided the stability in flight which increased accuracy. So, increased stability equals to increased accuracy. Rounds like HESH do not need kinetic energy for effective use. In an APFSDS, as the name states, the fin prevents the shell from tumbling and losing speed.
 

LurkerBaba

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pmaitra

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PM,

I think we had this discussion before. Fins provide Drag stabilization based on viscous property of air. A spinning-finned projectile OTOH would not have benefits of drag stabilization and lose energy quickly.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-189.html#post480754
In a projectile with canted fins, part of the energy by virtue of forward momentum is taken away to spin the projectile.

Now, if the non spinning projectile did not have canted fins, when it wobbles, it would still take away energy from the energy by virtue of forward momentum.

Ideally, drag should be a negative vector of flight direction.

I will post an image later.

I still don't see any advantage of smoothbore over rifle other than barrel wear.
 

p2prada

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@p2prada

Fins cannot be used for spinning you say?

What is the purpose of canted fins then?

Fins do provide spin to M830A1 HEAT.
I suppose it depends on the purpose of the shell. The example you gave is not an APFSDS, it is a HEAT round. It is not a kinetic energy projectile.

So, if you find a kinetic energy projectile that relies on spin then I will accept what you say. But the statement itself is an oxymoron.

Apart from that the rate of the spinning also matters. We are talking about APFSDS which will barely complete one spin, HEAT which will spin to a slightly greater degree and HESH which will spin many times during the same period. They are not the same. I mean aren't we talking about how spinning the shell a hundred times a second offer it better stability when there are no fins on it, like HESH rather than something like the APFSDS where spin is not desirable.

It's because you said,
Many smoothbore projectiles use fins to spin after it leaves the barrel.
and are trying to lump the APFSDS and HEAT at the same levels of spin as HESH.

I would agree when you say fins do provide spin, heck even aircraft have fins, but at the same time I would disagree if you say an APFSDS was designed with a requirement to use spin for accuracy.

I believe you are comparing a regular fin stabilized concept to that of spin stabilization that is used in rockets and satellites, even HESH rounds.
 
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LurkerBaba

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In a projectile with canted fins, part of the energy by virtue of forward momentum is taken away to spin the projectile.

Now, if the non spinning projectile did not have canted fins, when it wobbles, it would still take away energy from the energy by virtue of forward momentum.

Ideally, drag should be a negative vector of flight direction.
I don't believe drag stabilized projectiles will have canted fins

IIRC viscous force opposes motion. So yes, it'll be against flight direct but also prevent wobbling and other undesirable effects
 

ersakthivel

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Nato countries switched to smooth bore guns for interoperability of ammunation. Not for any so called advantages of smooth bore over rifled.
the basic law of physics is spinning projectile is more accurate.The rifled gun should be atleast a part of the reason for it.

Broadsword: Battle-lines drawn on the Arjun tank: Armed Forces prefer Russian armour
The following quote is from the above site. It is a report by MOD to standing committee on defence of parliament.Not some I told you so hearsay.

Business Standard has learned from three different members of the Standing Committee on Defence that it is more than "startled"; it is frankly disbelieving of the army's deposition. In its last annual report for 2007-08, the committee was told by the MoD that the Arjun tank was:

"A product unique in its class", and "an improved system over the T-72."
"Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West".
"Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)".
"Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem."
 
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pmaitra

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Smoothbore or Rifle?

I will start with the premise that a spinning projectile has a more accurate trajectory over a non-spinning one.

Now, the debate went into fin-stabilization and using canted fins for spinning. Then there was the loss of energy due to drag.

Drag is a force that pulls an object moving in a fluid backwards.
F[SUB]D[/SUB] = (1/2)ρv[SUP]2[/SUP]C[SUB]D[/SUB]A. (eq. 1)

where, v is the velocity and A is the area. We can ignore the rest for now.

A moving projectile will have kinetic energy as such:
E[SUB]KIN(t)[/SUB] = (1/2)mv[SUP]2[/SUP]. (eq. 2)

where m is the mass.

Now, as the projectile moves in a fluid, it loses Kinetic Energy, by virtue of the drag (among other causes). The loss of kinetic energy over a small distance δs in unit time t is:
E[SUB]LOSS(t)[/SUB] = F[SUB]D[/SUB]δs(t). (eq. 3)

So, after covering this distance, the projectile ends up with a remaining energy:
E[SUB]KIN(t+1)[/SUB] = E[SUB]KIN(t)[/SUB] - E[SUB]LOSS(t)[/SUB]. (eq. 4)

All this comes from [ref: 3], [ref: 4], and [ref: 5].

Now, if we see eq. 1, drag force is proportional to the square of the velocity. So, if a projectile moved twice as fast, loss of energy would be quadrupled. As per eq. 2, we cannot reduce mass, nor the area. So, the only way the energy loss occurs is by reduction in velocity.

[HR][/HR]

So far so good. Now, let us see how a smoothbore fired projectile can behave under two types of fins, not canted and canted. Note, both will offer drag stabilization:

Fins not Canted:
The projectile is not spinning, so it will wobble [ref. 2]. Every time it wobbles, the body of the projectile and the fins produce drag. Only the fins help push the centre of pressure back from the centre of gravity. So, while the force, being a function of mass, acts as per the centre of gravity, the fins push the centre of pressure backwards, and causes a lift, that brings the projectile aligned with the direction of motion. However, the projectile will continue to wobble, and the fins will continue to correct it, thus causing continuous loss of energy, and therefore, velocity.

Fins Canted:
This is very similar to the above scenario, but the fins are canted, and so it imparts spin, due to torque applied by the canted trailing edges of the fins, which also creates drag, and loss of energy, and velocity. However, the canting is very small, because, the fins being further away from the centre of the projectile, can exert enough torque on the body of the projectile. Once it starts spinning, there is very little chance of wobble, and the only loss of energy is by virtue of the cantings.

In either case, we see that there is loss of energy, and when this energy is lost in flight, whatever remains, is transferred into power. Let us assume the projectile hits the armour after n seconds, and it takes k seconds to come to stop, the average power transferred into the armour is:
P = E[SUB]KIN(n)[/SUB]/k.

where, E[SUB]KIN(n)[/SUB] is the energy left after losing velocity over n seconds of flight.

Now, what if we actually used a rifle to spin the projectile?

We would need no fins (canted or otherwise), and there will be no wobbling, and hence, the drag will be limited to the area i.e. the cross section of projectile (note, if it wobbled, the drag is more than the cross section [ref: 1], [ref: 2]).

Thus, much less loss in energy (proportional to square of velocity).

Another way to look at it is if we look at the instantaneous power:
P(t) = Fv = mv[SUP]2[/SUP]/t.

So, if we can preserve the velocity, i.e. reduce its loss (which we can if we eliminate fins altogether), we can deliver a bigger punch on the armour.

Therefore, looking at the equations, it looks like fins are necessitated if a smoothbore is used, but the disadvantages of fins are well overcome by rifling.


[HR][/HR]

I don't believe drag stabilized projectiles will have canted fins

IIRC viscous force opposes motion. So yes, it'll be against flight direct but also prevent wobbling and other undesirable effects
In drag stabilization, it is actually the lift that corrects the wobbling. Whether there will be any lift or not, will depend upon the centre of gravity and centre of pressure. See the right-most diagram in [ref: 2].

It's because you said,

and are trying to lump the APFSDS and HEAT at the same levels of spin as HESH.
No, I am not trying to lump anything together. I have not even mentioned APFSDS. All I am talking about is the projectile actually reaching the target accurately, and why a rifle is desired over smoothbore.

Now, if you want to talk specifically about Armour Piercing projectiles (since you mentioned APFSDS), I must say, it is in the interest of APFSDS to preserve as much energy as possible, so, better keep the fins out, and use rifling to spin the projectile.


[HR][/HR]
References:
[ref: 1] http://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter325.pdf
[ref: 2] Rocket Stability
[ref: 3] Power (physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[ref: 4] Energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[ref: 5] Drag equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Damian

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Do you make calculations taking in to account velocity of projectiles? Velocity is way over 1,000 m/s, in case of most APFSDS it ranges from 1,500 to 1,800 m/s.
 

pmaitra

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Do you make calculations taking in to account velocity of projectiles? Velocity is way over 1,000 m/s, in case of most APFSDS it ranges from 1,500 to 1,800 m/s.
Yes.

.. .. .. .. ..
 

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