Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase

vram

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If this is true wouldn't the DRDO have made a big noise already about the probable corruption in the the tank acquistion program?? after all its the DRDO that is going to get all the flak and bad name if this fails to meteralize. The media is just waiting for a oppurtunity to pounce on anything related to corruption these days and even a informal leak wuth substance to back it up would be jucy enough for the defence journos to investigate.
Also as I recollect the BLACK BOX was installed in the first ARJUN trails only after the DRDO insisted and suspected foul play.
IF I remember correctly the trails have already started and there where even a couple of PICS out in the web showing the MK2 tank. So what is the truth here? though I do take more of Ajay Shukla's views as he was part of the armoured corps and is in the know as a journalist.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Its corruption and arms dealers in power..

Btw, Arjun designer was killed by a truck in so call accident and i am not sure his successor is good as the original designer, IMI the one who were giving help were banned few month before his death..

So, If this all happening before everyone eyes dont be a novice..

If this is true wouldn't the DRDO have made a big noise already about the probable corruption in the the tank acquistion program?? after all its the DRDO that is going to get all the flak and bad name if this fails to meteralize. The media is just waiting for a oppurtunity to pounce on anything related to corruption these days and even a informal leak wuth substance to back it up would be jucy enough for the defence journos to investigate.Also as I recollect the BLACK BOX was installed in the first ARJUN trails only after the DRDO insisted and suspected foul play.IF I remember correctly the trails have already started and there where even a couple of PICS out in the web showing the MK2 tank. So what is the truth here? though I do take more of Ajay Shukla's views as he was part of the armoured corps and is in the know as a journalist.
 

Rage

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An Italian waitress who is also a Russian agent will sign on anything which the russians want for the sake of bribes. In a 10k crore deal, the total bribe amount may be upward of 3k crores. We had known that this is what will happen as the MOD has literally forced IA to ask for these tanks. IA had wished to induct more Arjuns on Pak border and transfer T-90s from Pak border to China border. But this plan was scuttled at behest of the russian agent Italian waitrss and IA forced to buy these tanks.
So, you're saying the MoD forced the IA to gun for the T-90's?

What does this say about Antony? with his spiffy-clean image?
 

sayareakd

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may be India against corruption take up this issue.
We should also know who are arms dealers and agents in India.
We all know how much transfer of tech was given when we paid total transfer of tech. Tech for gun, armor and source code for fire control were denied to us, T90s dont have APU, Plus all the active and passive protection which is part of standard T90A are missing. So much so for taking our nation for ride by DGMF.
 

Decklander

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Blackwater

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Q is, is there is any better tank than T-90 right now ?????????????????????????
 

Folk hero

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So what's the meaning of this are we going to induct ARJUN MK2 or not?

I am really sick of this behavior of our armed forces, if our defense industry is incompetent why they even give them orders to make/develop defense equipment why don't they go for foreign stuff.

Is T90 MS directly sent from heaven if not why are we going for it, Good job our dear corrupt MOD/military I hope those corrupt A-holes die under tracks of ARJUN.
 

Damian

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Q is, is there is any better tank than T-90 right now ?????????????????????????
I think it is not the right question, T-90 have it's strong sides, but there are other alternatives. For example Ukrainian T-84M "Oplot"/BM "Oplot" weighting 51 tons, and it is better protected than T-90. And there are other alternatives, like Leopard 2, Leclerc, or M1 series, from lighter vehicles, there are different Russiand and Ukrainian modernizations of their older tanks that are below 50 tons, still well protected like T-64BM "Bulat", T-72MP, T-72S, T-72B and T-72B1 as well as their modifications.

There is plenty of different tanks avaiable on the market, and their overal capabilities are comparable, on very similiar level, despite differences in their design and their detailed characteristics.

On the other hand, why Indian T-90S do not have APU? I thought it was a standard for T-90S?
 
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Armand2REP

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Is GoI ignoring the fact T-90 price has increased substantially? It makes sense if cost was the issue but Russian inflation has nullified any benefit of that. As far as France is concerned it does not matter. T-90 might even be better considering the price of Catherine-FC.
 

ersakthivel

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I think it is not the right question, T-90 have it's strong sides, but there are other alternatives. For example Ukrainian T-84M "Oplot"/BM "Oplot" weighting 51 tons, and it is better protected than T-90. And there are other alternatives, like Leopard 2, Leclerc, or M1 series, from lighter vehicles, there are different Russiand and Ukrainian modernizations of their older tanks that are below 50 tons, still well protected like T-64BM "Bulat", T-72MP, T-72S, T-72B and T-72B1 as well as their modifications.

There is plenty of different tanks avaiable on the market, and their overal capabilities are comparable, on very similiar level, despite differences in their design and their detailed characteristics.

On the other hand, why Indian T-90S do not have APU? I thought it was a standard for T-90S?
The indian T-90s import order was signed with out many important items included in the original contract , so that price of the T-90s were made to look so cheap.
The trials of T-90 was conducted in russia in the cold climate for which T-90 was optimized with it's electronics and 1000 hp engine opposed to the accepted international standard practice of conducting used trials in india's rajasthan and punjub.
If the trials are conducted in the summer in rajasthan the tank would have been rejected outright as inferior stuff because according to open source info the T-90 has the following problems
1.The supposed to be 1000 hp cold climate engine is giving out only 800 hp in boiling rajasthan desert so it is very under powered hindering it's mobility,
2.It's thermal vision and electronics malfunction in the indian summer,army is looking for outside help for this.
3.Due to the cramped space and poor ventilation a jawan fainted with heat stroke in summer trial it self.
4.There is no way you can fix the heat issue as there is no place to put the airconditioner as it is already packed, for this also army is seeking outside help.
5.Exposed ammunition on the turret floor is dangerous for the tank even in case of a land mine explosion.This lack of compartmentalization of ammo without any blow off panels alone would have been a cause of rejection .
6.And the lower powered APU wont support the future needs for power hungry network centric applications on the tank so critical in tactical battle management scene.
7.last but not the least the ground pressure exerted by the so called light weight MBT T-90 is more than that of the arjun according to open source info meaning that T-90 will have more problems negotiating the in loose soiled terrain than ARJUN which has the lowest ground pressure per square inch among all the modern MBTs.

8.Even the russian army hasnt bought as many T-90s while having a much older tank fleet begging replacements,they are going on future MBT types then what are the chances of long term upgradation support for this tank which is not present in 1000s even in it's home country.

The idea of importing more foreign stuff is stupid as after decades of work and expert help from Israelis the arjun which was designed with indain GSQR in mind with out any defects of the T-90s mentioned above is already there.

And now india faces no sanctions after the nuclear deal s we can get all the expert help from outside world for designing future ammo for the tank.

Thats why the black listing of IMI is the worst move by MOD completely ignoring india's strategic interests in future as the firm is so instrumental in giving expert help in solving the niggling issues in arjun.How people do this with short sightedness is incredible as it is the only firm in the world adopting unfair practice in indian arms contract.

Then how can we approve the purchase of T-90 whose trials were conducted in russia and whose sub systems were not optimized for india?
 
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pmaitra

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First, in the heavy-lift helicopter bid, the Chinook was chosen over the Halo, when the Halo was by far the better choice, and now, they are trying to push Arjun away in favour of the T-90, when Arjun is better in many respects.

I am more tending towards the theory that non-technical considerations are taking precedence in weapons procurement.

Obviously, this is just my opinion.
 

Damian

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1.The supposed to be 1000 hp cold climate engine is giving out only 800 hp in boiling rajasthan desert so it is very under powered hindering it's mobility,
2.It's thermal vision and electronics malfunction in the indian summer,army is looking for outside help for this.
3.Due to the cramped space and poor ventilation a jawan fainted with heat stroke in summer trial it self.
4.There is no way you can fix the heat issue as there is no place to put the airconditioner as it is already packed, for this also army is seeking outside help.
5.Exposed ammunition on the turret floor is dangerous for the tank even in case of a land mine explosion.This lack of compartmentalization of ammo without any blow off panels alone would have been a cause of rejection .
6.And the lower powered APU wont support the future needs for power hungry network centric applications on the tank so critical in tactical battle management scene.
7.last but not the least the ground pressure exerted by the so called light weight MBT T-90 is more than that of the arjun according to open source info meaning that T-90 will have more problems negotiating the in loose soiled terrain than ARJUN which has the lowest ground pressure per square inch among all the modern MBTs.
1) This is problem for all Diesel engines, they tend to lost approx 100-200HP for cooling.

2) There might be problem with quality control, ask where electronics are manufactured.

3) And who said to you that A/C unit need to be inside vehicle? I tell you something, many tanks have A/C unit outside.

4) As above, you have very little knowledge about tanks design.

5) And exactly the same problem have Arjun, I know, you will ignore this technical aspect and the fact that only M1 Abrams series have whole ammunition safely stored while rest of today used tanks have unsafe ammunition storage.

6) So just install more powerfull APU, you think where APU is installed, mostly outside of the hull of turret, for example in side hull sponsons or on the turret rear.

7) Oh, this claim that Arjun have the lowest ground pressure among modern MBT's is a silly one. Please explain me, how it is possible, when it have similiar dimensions to many other MBT's as well as it uses tracks based on Dhiel company design that is one of the most wide spread tracks design?

Can I ask you for something? Stop being the freeking teenage fanboy!
 

ersakthivel

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1) This is problem for all Diesel engines, they tend to lost approx 100-200HP for cooling.

2) There might be problem with quality control, ask where electronics are manufactured.

3) And who said to you that A/C unit need to be inside vehicle? I tell you something, many tanks have A/C unit outside.

4) As above, you have very little knowledge about tanks design.

5) And exactly the same problem have Arjun, I know, you will ignore this technical aspect and the fact that only M1 Abrams series have whole ammunition safely stored while rest of today used tanks have unsafe ammunition storage.

6) So just install more powerfull APU, you think where APU is installed, mostly outside of the hull of turret, for example in side hull sponsons or on the turret rear.

7) Oh, this claim that Arjun have the lowest ground pressure among modern MBT's is a silly one. Please explain me, how it is possible, when it have similiar dimensions to many other MBT's as well as it uses tracks based on Dhiel company design that is one of the most wide spread tracks design?

Can I ask you for something? Stop being the freeking teenage fanboy!
So if it loses more than 200 hp it will be hugely underpowered .

1.quality control--Who controls the quality of the electronics of the fully built and imported T-90s whose electronics packed up in the heat?
3.whose job is it to instal A/cs for a tank that runs on the desert ? maker's? or the user's?
4.So as per your knowledge of tank design the user has to buy the tank, install A/c,Install powerful APU all at his own cost , who will do the modification and design?
5. mk-2 arjuns have ammo blow up panels in case of hit on ammo compartment.And mk-1 has separate storage atleast to prevent them from explosion in case of fire spreading into crew compartment from explosion somewhere else.
The T-90 does not even have the basic level of protection of Ammo from fire .

7.before the explanation of ground pressure issue , I thought you were some tank warfare expert.Now your explanation for my question no-7 shows you are not an expert on T-90 or arjun or for that matter any tank.
 
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Damian

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:facepalm:

What you are not understanding here? I said how it is possible that Arjun have lower ground pressure than most other MBT's with comparable dimensions and tracks width? I was not talking about T-90, but about this sentence:

ARJUN which has the lowest ground pressure per square inch among all the modern MBTs.
What is so difficult to understand here?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Arjun MK-1 have lowest ground pressure among all tanks in IA, during 1971 war PA M-48 were struck in muddy fields of Punjab where Centurions with weight of 51 tons were moving without any problems due to wider tracks and lower ground pressure and taking out stucked M48 in muds, Many M48 & 47 were captured as there crew left there tanks knowing there is no way out..
 

Damian

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Arjun MK-1 have lowest ground pressure among all tanks in IA
And this sentence is or might be truth, thank you Kunal for a voice of reason.

But it is completely unacceptable to agree with a sentence that Arjun have the lower ground pressure among all modern MBT's. It is definetly on the level of all other tanks with similiar dimensions and weight above 55 tons.
 

ersakthivel

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And this sentence is or might be truth, thank you Kunal for a voice of reason.

But it is completely unacceptable to agree with a sentence that Arjun have the lower ground pressure among all modern MBT's. It is definetly on the level of all other tanks with similiar dimensions and weight above 55 tons.
just check and compare the specs for ground pressure of all modern MBTs with ARJUN and the T-90..Don't post in the forum without even the courtesy of checking a few basic specs.Use at least google, if not some big tank design books you read.
 

ersakthivel

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So as per your tank expertise an army should buy a tank with 1000 hp power rating and accept a loss of 200 hp due to heat and install A/c ,Install powerful APU,design their own separate storage for ammo whether outside the tank or inside the tank.
Will a country that but just 50 or 60 of your T-90s can do that?

is this the modern MBT standard?
 

vram

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I just came across the following comparison between the T90 S and the Arjun tank. Here it categorically states that the Arjun has a lesser ground pressure than the T 90 S. Though Ironically I find that the outcome mentioned in the article remains the same even after 5 years of water under the bridge and the players all changing. I feel Kunal is right here and there is a lot of background forces trying to kill this program. It is simply frusturating that nobody is willing to take on this import arms lobby.
The media is more interested in saifina and .The moment somebody suggests that the ARJUN might be equally good compared to the T90 S some import lobby boffin sends money around the news studios and bring in some foriegn EXPERT (lol!) playing up on the usual inferiority complex of the INDIANS to undermine support for the ARJUN. After all whatever the whiteman or non India says must be true. Desis are like this only.

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs : Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion
 

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