Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

the discussion about the turret width is over, and we've agreed that the turret width is ~2.85m over the widest portion. if you need reference, review the hundreds of previous post. if you need answers to any of the questions you've made, review the hundreds of previous posts, your questions have already been answered, some more than once.

This is not true.

see the post no-1143 below. That is conclusive as far as I know.

You posted 500 mm as a hatch width,

I have taken a far larger number of 550 mm as hatch width, even though going by your 500 mm will give 100 mm more width for ARJUN turret , I did not take the option please note.Because it is posted in this forum that ARJUN hatch width is between 53 to 57 cm.

The above is the drawing you posted in response.

And you accepted it is my conclusion , Otherwise you can please point out the errors.

If we take hatch width as 550 mm and apply it in the following photo results will more or less be the same.

In fact it will give a much bigger width on this photo.

For me this is conclusive and , a member of the armed forces KUNAL BISWAS has already posted in ARJUN MBT thread in his debate with STGN that ARJUN turret measures more than 3 plus meters, So my guess is it is more than 3 meters.

 

[ersakthivel]

I will not duplicate STGN job. many times yours argument where destroyed and I don't see any point in doing this again. It's first reson - second - my job will be definetly not as good as STGN was so there is no point to make whorse copy of His job. I posted many times my ow job on draw or arjun photos, IMHO STGN ones is mucht better.

the question I asked was below,

explain the purpose behind the curvature of the inner turret wall with no corresponding outer turret wall curvatures.

my opinion is it for composite armor placement according to military recognition site , which clearly says that ARJUN has composite armor all around.

We have no need to discuss DEJAWOLF job or STGN job, That job will be done between DEJAWOLF and me plus STGN and me,

Not between you and me.

The shadow of the turret falls on the hull at the third blue line from the top.

it is the place where turret's side wall projection on the hull would fall.

The blue rectangle drawn on the TC's crew hatch cover represent s the true length of the hatch cover .

This rectangle is projected in the correct plane on the hull ,

found out by the downwards projection of the line joining the two hatch covers on the turret top,
to the top of the hull.

This is the perspective drawing as far as I know,

Width over track is 3540 mm.


About half of the crew hatch is enclosed between the red line an the blue line. The red line indicates the track width border of 3540 mm

That is about 0.50x550 mm=220 mm
3540-(220x2=440 mm)= 3140 mm is the width of the ARJUN turret.

There needs to be a correction factor for taking the same length turret width line which is situated at a depth of the close to 1.5 meter from hull plane . If we apply that the hull width is only going to increase, not decrease.

Because the fixed length rectangle on the hatch cover will measure less length if we bring it in front by 1.5 meters on the hull plane,

Since my opponents here will not accept it as they don't have any idea about Perspective distortion, I haven't included it here.

Even if you take a worst case scenario of 3000 mm turret width, giving a very large margin of 140 mm for inaccuracies

1500mm is the distance between outer most side wall of arjun side turret and the turret center line,
1200 mm is the distance between the two crew hatch centers,
1200/2= 600 mm is the distance of Tc' seat edge from the turret center line,
So 1500 mm-600 mm=900 mm is the space available besides the crew hatch center and the outer most side wall of ARJUN turret,

The composite armor cavity in the photo above confirms that.

 

[ersakthivel]

This is not true.

see the post no-1143 above. That is conclusive as far as I know.

You posted 500 mm as a hatch width,

I have taken a far larger number of 550 mm as hatch width, even though going by your 500 mm will give 100 mm more width for ARJUN turret , I did not take the option please note.Because it is posted in this forum that ARJUN hatch width is between 53 to 57 cm.

The above is the drawing you posted in response.

And you accepted it is my conclusion , Otherwise you can please point out the errors.

If we take hatch width as 550 mm and apply it in the following photo results will more or less be the same.

In fact it will give a much bigger width on this photo.

For me this is conclusive and , a member of the armed forces KUNAL BISWAS has already posted in ARJUN MBT thread in his debate with STGN that ARJUN turret measures more than 3 plus meters, So my guess is it is more than 3 meters.

So it is a fact that ARJUN has composite armor all around as explicitly mentioned by military recognition web site, and confirmed by many generals that it is the best protected tank in IA comparable to ABRAMS, LECLERC and LEO in the link to interview of 3 generals on NDTV posted by DAREDEVIL on this thread,

One of them commanded ARJUN regiment and other two were also very high ranking armored core officers,

[IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img585/2162/arjunwieowy.png[/IMG]

The ratio of the white metal gap between the crew hatch edge to crew hatch width is 0.25 in the photo below.

So 0.25x550 mm=140 mm

Also the photo below confirms that there is only 140 mm gap from the edge of the crew hatch to the side turret armor cavity.

Rest is armor only.

You yourself has said that there is 1200 mm gap between the two crew hatch centers,

Adding another 550 mm for edge to edge crew hatch distance will give 1750 mm
Adding this additional 2x140 mm=280 mm gives 2030 mm as inner turret width of ARJUN .

So 3140-2030=1000 mm/2 =500 mm is the gap available for armor cavity between the turret inner wall and outer wall.

 

[ersakthivel]

This is not true.

see the post no-1143 below. That is conclusive as far as I know.

You posted 500 mm as a hatch width,

I have taken a far larger number of 550 mm as hatch width, even though going by your 500 mm will give 100 mm more width for ARJUN turret , I did not take the option please note.Because it is posted in this forum that ARJUN hatch width is between 53 to 57 cm.

The above is the drawing you posted in response.

And you accepted it is my conclusion , Otherwise you can please point out the errors.

If we take hatch width as 550 mm and apply it in the following photo results will more or less be the same.

In fact it will give a much bigger width on this photo.

For me this is conclusive and , a member of the armed forces KUNAL BISWAS has already posted in ARJUN MBT thread in his debate with STGN that ARJUN turret measures more than 3 plus meters, So my guess is it is more than 3 meters.

So it is a fact that ARJUN has composite armor all around as explicitly mentioned by military recognition web site, and confirmed by many generals that it is the best protected tank in IA comparable to ABRAMS, LECLERC and LEO in the link to interview of 3 generals on NDTV posted by DAREDEVIL on this thread,

One of them commanded ARJUN regiment and other two were also very high ranking armored core officers,

The ratio of the white metal gap between the crew hatch edge to crew hatch width is 0.25 in the photo below.

So 0.25x550 mm=140 mm

Also the photo below confirms that there is only 140 mm gap from the edge of the crew hatch to the side turret armor cavity.

Rest is armor only.

You yourself has said that there is 1200 mm gap between the two crew hatch centers,

Adding another 550 mm for edge to edge crew hatch distance will give 1750 mm
Adding this additional 2x140 mm=280 mm gives 2030 mm as inner turret width of ARJUN .

So 3140-2030=1000 mm/2 =500 mm is the gap available for armor cavity between the turret inner wall and outer wall.

 

[ersakthivel]

This is not true.

see the post no-1143 below. That is conclusive as far as I know.

You posted 500 mm as a hatch width,

I have taken a far larger number of 550 mm as hatch width, even though going by your 500 mm will give 100 mm more width for ARJUN turret , I did not take the option please note.Because it is posted in this forum that ARJUN hatch width is between 53 to 57 cm.

The above is the drawing you posted in response.

And you accepted it is my conclusion , Otherwise you can please point out the errors.

If we take hatch width as 550 mm and apply it in the following photo results will more or less be the same.

In fact it will give a much bigger width on this photo.

For me this is conclusive and , a member of the armed forces KUNAL BISWAS has already posted in ARJUN MBT thread in his debate with STGN that ARJUN turret measures more than 3 plus meters, So my guess is it is more than 3 meters.

 

[Dejawolf]

cool video on T-90MS:

New Russian tank - T-90MS - The best video ever! (English subtitles) - YouTube

 

[ersakthivel]

STGN's x pix= y meters is something he himself can verify.

SO let leave it aside and take the ratio of the hatch cover width that can be accomadated besides the ARJUn turret on the hull.

It is 70 percent.

Since the lock on the storage box and crew hatch are almost located side by side , there is no perspective distortion of distances either.


The slight tilting of turret also does not matter because the center point (the position of lock)of the turret is a pivot around which the turret rotates so it will be in the same position even if turret straightens.

The total hull width is 3840 mm(including frontal side skirts is my assumption).

70 percent of the hatch cover width is the vacant space besides the turret side on ARJUN hull.

So it is 375 mm on one side, 750 mm on both sides,

3860 mm-750m gives 3100 mm approx as turret width.

So the claim of ARJUN turret having 3 plus meters width is correct.

SO close to 500 mm space is available for composite armor for ARJUN turret is correct , since the first storage box was converted to armor long time ago in production versions of ARJUn.

The same conclusion can be arrived at via this picture also.

the red line cuts the hatch cover right at mid point. It indicates the width over the tracks i.e 3540 mm.

SO 3540-(2x275 mm=550 mm)=3 meters.

 

[ersakthivel]

In the above post no-1148,

But the turret width in reality may be close to 3.1 meters , because when the blue triangle is brought forward it measures less length on the hull than on the hatch cover because of perspective distortion.

 

[ersakthivel]

India's tanks, combat vehicles to get night-vision devices | Firstpost

So according to these post while the Indian army is very conservative with it's order for ARJUN saying it has this defect , and that ,has procured hundreds of night blind T-90s in pathetic condition and now going to spend more than a billion dollar separately to rectify this mistake. this report is a slap in the face for the guys who kept on arguing that Arjun was rejected in 2005 because it was not ready and t-90 was oredered in 2005 because it was fully fit and in battle ready condition.

this report finally blows the lid over the scandalous T-90 import saga, where night blind T-90 tanks with host of other problems like fainting crew in desert summer conditions due to overheating(still there is no internal space to fit the airconditioning unit) in cramped space were imported by Indian army.

The T-90s were never tested properly in indian desert conditions and ordered in not fit for battle conditions, with their defects being improvised after they arrived in hundreds in India by spending indian tax payer money.

As per this report all the 1200 T-90s that are ordered till today are practically night blind.

http://www.defencenow.com/news/430/...ks-with-night-vision-devices-progressing.html

So this is what the indian army is doing after buying thousands of night blind t-90s. How come they pass through the user trials?

How did the night blind T-90 pass the army user trials? When Arjun had it's engines sabotaged the night blind T-90 passes the user trails with flying colors!!!!!

Now why is the Indian army juggling with the problems of mating night vision devices with fire control systems? Is it not the job of the russians to deliver a finished product in the form of fully night vision enabled t-90 to the Indian army?

Also please note that tropical weather patterns in india is very different from other countries. So why was the not t-90 tested in these weather conditions before orders for 1000s of them were scurried through?

But Arjun went through the toughest testing under these conditions and proved all it's systems right. But the IA is not interested in giving 500 number orders for them.

The Army had in 2001 got 300 Israeli TISAS for its T-72 tanks and this was followed up with 3,860 image intensifier-based NVDs. But the Indian Army has had trouble with the systems, particularly integration with the fire control systems.

Its 310 T-90S tanks bought from Russia for over Rs 3,625 crore (nearly $700 million) in 2001 too had problems with the French Catherine Thermal Imaging cameras.

Due to the tropical weather patterns in India, Catherine Thermal Imaging cameras often did not function adequately in Rajasthan deserts' extreme temperatures of 55 to 60 degree Celsius.

 

[vram]

India's tanks, combat vehicles to get night-vision devices | Firstpost

So according to these post while the Indian army is very conservative with it's order for ARJUN saying it has this defect , and that ,has procured hundreds of night blind T-90s in pathetic condition and now going to spend more than a billion dollar separately to rectify this mistake. this report is a slap in the face for the guys who kept on arguing that Arjun was rejected in 2005 because it was not ready and t-90 was oredered in 2005 because it was fully fit and in battle ready condition.

this report finally blows the lid over the scandalous T-90 import saga, where night blind T-90 tanks with host of other problems like fainting crew in desert summer conditions due to overheating(still there is no internal space to fit the airconditioning unit) in cramped space were imported by Indian army.

The T-90s were never tested properly in indian desert conditions and ordered in not fit for battle conditions, with their defects being improvised after they arrived in hundreds in India by spending indian tax payer money.

As per this report all the 1200 T-90s that are ordered till today are practically night blind.

Proposals to Fit Indian Army Tanks with Night Vision Devices Progressing - Defence Now

So this is what the indian army is doing after buying thousands of night blind t-90s. How come they pass through the user trials?

How did the night blind T-90 pass the army user trials? When Arjun had it's engines sabotaged the night blind T-90 passes the user trails with flying colors!!!!!

Now why is the Indian army juggling with the problems of mating night vision devices with fire control systems? Is it not the job of the russians to deliver a finished product in the form of fully night vision enabled t-90 to the Indian army?

Also please note that tropical weather patterns in india is very different from other countries. So why was the not t-90 tested in these weather conditions before orders for 1000s of them were scurried through?

But Arjun went through the toughest testing under these conditions and proved all it's systems right. But the IA is not interested in giving 500 number orders for them.

We can always keep arguing the facts one on top of the other Sir. But at the end of the day the T-90's are here to stay. The bitter fact is that any Indian product will be tested and tested until we have a failuire. But foriegn product no matter what deficiencies will be treated as god given. IT is not only the army mentality but even the typical Indian one. A tata Indica is called the poor mans taxi and was ridiculed but the when the Santro came along even with its umpteen issues we hailed it as the pinnacle of achievement. We are like this only.

 

[Dejawolf]

there's a very simple solution to the AC issue. replace one of the stowage boxes, and mount it on the outside like the russians did on their T-90s.

A/C can be seen on the left side of the turret.

as for the thermals, russian optics have always been garbage. the only reason russians even have thermals is because they bought them from the french. best option for india is to buy some other western FCS that's been proven in desert, and replace T-90 optics with that.

 

[ersakthivel]

That's why I mentioned that it was written by a fanboy - T-64 has similar armour if that was given for frontal armour values. But thanks for replying.

Also, what's the difference between soft kill and hard kill? I heard hard kill system uses missiles for shooting down incoming projectiles. Is that true?

Armor Basics

The link has armor estimates for many MBTs, including that of leo.

A = Lower hull
B = Glacis
C = Front 1/3 side hull -------------------------------D = Front side turret Side Turret
E = Upper front turret ---------------------------- F =Rear Turret
G = Rear Hull ----------------------- H = side hull
J =Mantlet ------------------------- K = Weakened Zone
L = Front turret corners ------------------------- M = Side Turret


1.5.13.1 Leopard 2A1—A3 detailed armor estimation
A = 350mm KE & 520mm HEAT----------------------------------B = 350mm KE & 520mm HEAT
C =90–100mm KE & 500mm HEAT------------------------------D = 210mm KE & 290mm HEAT
E = N/AF = 70–90mm KE & 400mm HEAT-------------------G = 70mm KE & 400mm HEAT
H = 60–70mm KE & 370mm HEAT------------------------------J = 590mm KE & 810mm HEAT
K = 670mm KE & 1080mm HEAT--------------------------------*L = 570mm KE & 830mm HEAT
M = 210mm KE & 290mm HEAT*)

gun sight area is 610mm KE. & 890mm HEAT If leo has a Los thickness behind the main sigh as 890 mm. How come ARJUN which was modeled on Leo will have a LOS thickness behind main sight of 350 mm as claimed by some posters he



5.4.1 T-80U
A = 210mm KE & HEAT
B = 520mm KE & 570mm HEAT
C = 70–120mm KE & 210 – 260mm HEAT
D = 400mm KE & 510mm HEAT
E = 280–290mm KE & 370–410mm HEAT
F =110–140mm KE & 180–270mm HEAT
G = 60mm KE & 300–400mm HEAT
H = 70–120mm KE &~ 210 – 260mm HEAT
J =470mm KE & 730mm HEAT
K = 490mm KE & 520mm HEAT
L = 480mm KE & 640mm HEAT
M = 260mm KE & 340mm HEAT


1.5.4.2 T–80UM–1 with K–5


A = 240mm KE & 380mm HEAT
B =680–720mm KE & 960–1040mm HEAT
C = 90–140mm KE & 510 – 560mm HEAT
D = 420–640mm KE & 680–850mm HEAT
E = 350–390mm KE & 560–940mm HEAT
F =110–140mm KE & 180–270mm HEAT
G = 60mm KE & 300–400mm HEAT
H = 70–120mm KE &~ 210 – 260mm HEAT
J =560–580mm KE & 940–1060mm HEAT
K = 640–660mm KE & 1080–1120mm HEAT
L = 660–680mm KE & 1100–1140mm HEAT
M = 280mm KE & 340mm HEATK-5 coverage seems to be about 60%, the T-80 without K-5 looks a lot like the T-72BVwith K-1

1.5.5 General armor description: T-84

The T-84 uses the same hull as the T-80U, but features a new welded turret.The maximum armor thickness of this turret is probably similar to the T-80Ufront turret armor, which is reported to be 815mm thick and the insert isprobably similar to the T-90 with ~380mm LOS insert thickness suggested.The turret is welded and probably similar to the T-80UM with an insert of TE0.71 & 0.9. Based on the assumption of welded RHA plates,The angles on the T-84 seems close to the T-80 and therefore the 'T-80UM'K-5 numbers apply.

1.5.5.1 T-84 detailed armor estimation

A = 240mm KE & 380mm HEAT
B =680–720mm KE & 960–1040mm HEAT
C = 90–140mm KE & 510 – 560mm HEAT
D = 420mm KE & 680mm HEAT
E = 500–670mm KE & 740–1160mm HEAT
F =110–130mm KE & 270–350mm HEAT
G = 60mm KE & 300–400mm HEAT
H = 70–120mm KE &~ 210 – 260mm HEAT
J =620–640mm KE & 940–1060mm HEAT
K = 740–760mm KE & 1080–1120mm HEAT
L = 720–740mm KE & 1040–1080mm HEAT
M = 280mm KE & 340mm HEAT

 

[Dejawolf]

with SCIENCE. and by reading Armour basics by Paul lakowski, as well as talking to him, reading material science journals, material science textbooks, etc.
There may be many different configurations, but the materials are known, they have specific resistance against HEAT or KE, and there's only 1 optimal configuration. i'm basing my TE estimates of kanchan on the best possible configuration of these elements. however, if DU or tungsten is added into the mix, these values will increase fairly rapidly. having a tungsten or DU backing plate is much better than having an RHA backing plate.
ceramics are hard but brittle. putting ceramics into the array and giving them a metal backing is a bit like face-hardening steel. you have a very hard surface with a more ductile backing.the ductile backing keeps the ceramics from shattering. a denser backing means less deformation, and therefore more effective ceramics.

post #995 it's been posted before.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

T-90MS layout

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

the ammo in the turret bustle is completely separate from the crew compartment.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This is T-90MS not T-90S, This is extra ammo outside, But the same auto loader and ammo is in the hull as on previous T tanks..

the ammo in the turret bustle is completely separate from the crew compartment.

 

[Austin]

T-90MS internal ammo are all in racks which are isolated and not exposed , no free ammo as in T-90S.

T-90MS uses a different gun and autoloader compared to T-90S.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No they are not, there cannot be containerized isolated compartment in T-72/80/90A/S/M..

Auto-loader design is same except modified to hold longer rods..

T-90MS internal ammo are all in racks which are isolated and not exposed , no free ammo as in T-90S.

T-90MS uses a different gun and autoloader compared to T-90S.

 

[Austin]

They are containerised but not completely isolated from crew since the container is near the crew like Arjun or Leo2 arrangement.

 

[bose]

India's tanks, combat vehicles to get night-vision devices | Firstpost

So according to these post while the Indian army is very conservative with it's order for ARJUN saying it has this defect , and that ,has procured hundreds of night blind T-90s in pathetic condition and now going to spend more than a billion dollar separately to rectify this mistake. this report is a slap in the face for the guys who kept on arguing that Arjun was rejected in 2005 because it was not ready and t-90 was oredered in 2005 because it was fully fit and in battle ready condition.

this report finally blows the lid over the scandalous T-90 import saga, where night blind T-90 tanks with host of other problems like fainting crew in desert summer conditions due to overheating(still there is no internal space to fit the airconditioning unit) in cramped space were imported by Indian army.

The T-90s were never tested properly in indian desert conditions and ordered in not fit for battle conditions, with their defects being improvised after they arrived in hundreds in India by spending indian tax payer money.

As per this report all the 1200 T-90s that are ordered till today are practically night blind.

Proposals to Fit Indian Army Tanks with Night Vision Devices Progressing - Defence Now

So this is what the indian army is doing after buying thousands of night blind t-90s. How come they pass through the user trials?

How did the night blind T-90 pass the army user trials? When Arjun had it's engines sabotaged the night blind T-90 passes the user trails with flying colors!!!!!

Now why is the Indian army juggling with the problems of mating night vision devices with fire control systems? Is it not the job of the russians to deliver a finished product in the form of fully night vision enabled t-90 to the Indian army?

Also please note that tropical weather patterns in india is very different from other countries. So why was the not t-90 tested in these weather conditions before orders for 1000s of them were scurried through?

But Arjun went through the toughest testing under these conditions and proved all it's systems right. But the IA is not interested in giving 500 number orders for them.

I feel sad reading your posts... why there is no accountability on those responsible for decision making ?? What is MOD doing on this ??

This is a serious issue of coruption that needs an urgent attention... Removing coruption in Defense deals should be national initiative...