Arjun vs T90 MBT

Godless-Kafir

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@Godless-Kafir
You said there is no APU outside Arjun turret, I find APU without a problem. ;)
Where did i say that? :laugh:


Side armor is not meant to protect only from pure 90 degrees sides, but also is providing protection within vehicle 60 degrees arc. It was long time ago, aftert WWII calculated by both Soviet Union and western Allies.
Ya ya, but the only week zone is directly next to the crew doors which is a very small area and so it covers 60 degs, i think!


Which is wrong thinking. Soviet Tanks were tested in deserts as well before induction. Same goes for Western tanks, these were also tested both in arctic and desert conditions.

Later I can show you a documentary that shows how Soviets tested their tanks in desert conditions.
Sure they tested it but not good enough and was never done seriously enough and that explain why they had huge teething problems in the Thar.
 
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Damian

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Where did i say that?
Few pages back? It was discussed recently, but perhaps I misunderstood you, if yest then my apologizes.

Ya ya, but the only week zone is directly next to the crew doors which is a very small area and so it covers 60 degs, i think!
No, you need or full coverage of crew compartment or full coerage of turret side. This is because at some angles projectile might go through the existing protection and hit the weakened zone. It is very problematic issue.

Sure they tested it but not good enough and was never done seriously enough and that explain why they had huge teething problems in the Thar.
You know that norms for testing phase in Soviet Union and Russia is very restrictive.


Watch from 18:20. Tests were allways very difficult and restrictive.
 
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Godless-Kafir

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Few pages back? It was discussed recently, but perhaps I misunderstood you, if yest then my apologizes.
I never talked about Arjuns APU.

Only about the T-90 which we got had no APU. As a stock with no modifications T-90 Vs Arjun the Arjun does have an upper hand. Sure we can add liquid armor with a golden gun tomorrow but now what we have is what we discuss against. Current IA T-90s are not better than Arjun and Arjun Mark-2 is way better than many T-90 versions.

We can go on comparing how T-90 is better but i can post how the T-90 is better than Abrams and you will still have a tough time shooting the argument down because what matters is on the field and what we have now.


No, you need or full coverage of crew compartment or full coerage of turret side. This is because at some angles projectile might go through the existing protection and hit the weakened zone. It is very problematic issue.
May be but i can not conclude on the significance of that, in a tank battle in the Thar the Arjun will be head to head with the enemy and tanks will be placed with in the 60 deg arc during battle as Arjuns buddies will be on the shoulders for target.



You know that norms for testing phase in Soviet Union and Russia is very restrictive.


Watch from 18:20. Tests were allways very difficult and restrictive.
Then that does not explain the collapse of the fire control system in dessert in Thar. Post soviet Russia is not USSR, they had huge financial problems in the defence sector after USSR collapse not all measures where followed.
 

Damian

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May be but i can not conclude on the significance of that, in a tank battle in the Thar the Arjun will be head to head with the enemy and tanks will be placed with in the 60 deg arc during battle as Arjuns buddies will be on the shoulders for target.
Head to Head means 60 degrees arc, and this means also side armor exposed to enemy.

Then that does not explain the collapse of the fire control system in dessert in Thar. Post soviet Russia is not USSR, they had huge financial problems in the defence sector after USSR collapse not all measures where followed.
T-90 use components developed during Soviet Union existance, in fact most electronics of T-90 comes from T-80U and T-80UD.
 

Godless-Kafir

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Head to Head means 60 degrees arc, and this means also side armor exposed to enemy.
Not sure of how much will be exposed in the 60 deg arc and neither are you.


T-90 use components developed during Soviet Union existance, in fact most electronics of T-90 comes from T-80U and T-80UD
The point is they FAILED. What part of that do you disagree with Damian? Why are you stuck with theories and not about "what is"!

The Video on tank trials shows cold deserts in Russia. The Thar is totally diffrent.
 

methos

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Much of this discussion depends on which version you look at. The T-90S, T-90MS, Arjun Mk 1 or even Mk 2 should be relevant for this discussion.

Some very undetailed rough thoughts:

Protection

Generally it is hard to measure armour protection. The T-90S has relatively modern passive armour which is based on the expertise of the Russian Nii Stali institute, which has composite armour for decades. Besides the composite armour, the T-90S employs Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour, which is known for offering a relatively high level of protection. The T-90 also employs ERA tiles on top of the roof providing protection against artillery submunitions and single warhead top-attack missiles.
The Arjun is protected by Indian designed Kanchan composite armour. There is a huge lack of information about Kanchan and in the end everything in the internet can be traced back to one or two different sources. It is hard to say that Indian armour is better or worse than the T-90S' composite armour, but I don't have found any real reason to say "Kanchan is better". Images from the Arjun Mk 2 prototypes show reactive armour at the hull front and at the turret, but still the coverage is far below that of the T-90S and T-90MS.
Indian T-90S - so was I told here multiple times - also use Kanchan as passive armour, which reduces the possible advantages of the Arjun.
The T-90SM has increased all-around armour protection based on passive armour, ERA and slat armour. Besides that the mantlet area is better armoured (reducing the weak spots) and much newer Relikt ERA is used, which was developed to replace Kontakt-5.

The T-90S's and the T-90SM's turrets are shaped in such a manner that in frontal engagments (+/- 30° from turret center) the turret is always protected by composite armour. The current Arjun models however have a worse designed turret, where the thinly armoured turret side should is exposed to enemy fire at angles greater than ~18°.

Another important point for crew protection is the post-penetration survivability. Here the T-90S and Arjun both have unisolated stored ammunition (at least in the known cases for the Arjun), while the T-90MS has reduced the total amount of ammunition stored directly inside the vehicle and moved a small amount of it into an isolated box at the turret rear. The T-90S and T-90MS feature mulitpurpose liners which protect against neutron radation and decrease spalling.

In my opinion the T-90MS is here the clear winner (nothing special for being the most modern tank in this comparision), followed by T-90S and Arjun (possible is also a tie between T-90S and Arjun, depending on Kanchan).

Mobility

The Arjun has the lowest ground-pressure of these three tanks according to Indian claims, but it is important that future models - with probably increased weight - will loose this advantage over the T-90S and T-90MS. The top speed of the Arjun might be greater, but top-speed is always variable and not much relevant for combat.
The T-90S is lighter and thus is more useful for Indian terrain, where infrastructure is limited. The T-90 is smaller (easier to navigate) and (according to this thread) had equal mobility in desert trials.

Firepower

The Arjun's fire control system is relatively modern and has - according to Indian sources - be proven to be good, even better than that of the T-90S in Indian trials (but there are again far too many unknown variables to really use this as agrument for the Arjun). Still the T-90MS with completely new fire control system is in my opinion the better choice.
The Arjun has a rifled gun and currently only weak ammunition. The T-90S and T-90MS with their smoothbore guns and wider range of ammunition are favoured here.
 

Damian

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Not sure of how much will be exposed in the 60 deg arc and neither are you.
Take a drawing and check yourself.



The point is they FAILED. What part of that do you disagree with Damian? Why are you stuck with theories and not about "what is"!

The Video on tank trials shows cold deserts in Russia. The Thar is totally diffrent.
Who failed? Russians? Or maybe HVF Avadi, what tanks had problems? These manufactured in Russia or India.

Oh BTW in the video it is said that tanks were tested in temperature of +50 degrees (in Celsius of course).
 

Godless-Kafir

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Take a drawing and check yourself.

Your red line is running through front armor, that to the thickets part.!




Who failed? Russians? Or maybe HVF Avadi, what tanks had problems? These manufactured in Russia or India.

Oh BTW in the video it is said that tanks were tested in temperature of +50 degrees (in Celsius of course).
Initial versions where knocked down kits from Russia, all made completely in Russia bought off the shelf!
 

Damian

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Your red line is running through front armor, that to the thickets part.!
What? This is showing only angles, nothing else.

Initial versions where knocked down kits from Russia, all made completely in Russia bought off the shelf!
I ask again, which tanks failed? Not to mention that exactly, these are knowck down kits, which means they still need to be completed in HVF.
 

p2prada

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Wait, what failed? This is the first time I heard about T-90 failing something!!!
 

Godless-Kafir

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What? This is showing only angles, nothing else.

Ya that angle is running directly over VERY thick armor at said angle.!



I ask again, which tanks failed? Not to mention that exactly, these are knowck down kits, which means they still need to be completed in HVF.
The complete import piece from Russia which where bought before ToT to India failed in the desert during the trial runs itself, this was before HVF started makeing them! You should atleast know that before getting into the Indian story of T-90.
 
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p2prada

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You are reading the drawing all wrong. Don't look at the V, look at the passage between the two red lines.

Also, I would like a link stating T-90s failed trials.
 

Damian

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Ya that angle is running directly over VERY thick armor at said angle.!
No it not.



The complete import piece from Russia which where bought before ToT failed in the desert during the trial runs itself. You should atleast know that before getting into the Indian story of T-90.
Ok it was during tests, and later, problems were solved out or not? Besides that, testing only one single vehicle is not very smart. There should be at least several vehicles.
 

Godless-Kafir

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You are reading the drawing all wrong. Don't look at the V, look at the passage between the two red lines.

Also, I would like a link stating T-90s failed trials.
The failure of fire control systems and its computerised sensors and sophisticated panels were noticed during T-90 trials in Rajasthan deserts, where systems conked off while operating in temperatures over 45 degree Celsius, sources said.

Indian Army's major armoured forces concentration was in Rajasthan deserts and Punjab's plains, facing western frontiers with Pakistan, where temperatures during summer are usually quite high.

India had contracted to purchase 310 T-90 tanks from Russia in February 2001 in a USD 795 million deal. The first lot of 124 T-90s were picked off the shelf and another 186 imported in a semi knocked down condition for assembling in Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi near Chennai.


T-90s to get new air-conditioners - Economic Times

As for side armor i am not sure, i have told him that before.
 

Godless-Kafir

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No it not.



Again what is the angle of the side wall at that trajectory? Should be very thick i suppose and again i am talking of the crew compartment and not the ammo storage bin.




Ok it was during tests, and later, problems were solved out or not? Besides that, testing only one single vehicle is not very smart. There should be at least several vehicles.
They still have issues and that article is dated 2008. That is a lot of effort for a brand new car no?
 

Damian

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Again what is the angle of the side wall at that trajectory? Should be very thick i suppose and again i am talking of the crew compartment and not the ammo storage bin.
This is at angle of 30 degrees. Side turret armor over crew and turret bustle in Arjun should be +/- 70-80mm max of RHA. If I am correct 70-80mm at that angle should give ~140-160mm, which means it does not provide protection even against less capable RPG's used today.
 

p2prada

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Ah, this was an issue that was found in 2004, 80 French Catherines were rendered unserviceable due to heat. This was fixed quite quickly and was termed a teething problem. The Russians replaced all 80 Catherines free of cost since the tanks were under the 3 year warranty.

The same thing happened to Arjun with the French Sagem Laser rangefinder. Even this conked during tests in 2005 and was later tropicalized. It is just French stuff giving up on us, not Russian or Indian. This is also a teething issue.

In the interview I posted, the army commanders talk about both tanks having teething issues which were subsequently fixed. There would have been more, but nothing to get jumpy over. It is an acceptable failure of a system.

The media kept repeating the same shit over and over and over again right up until Ajai Shukla released an article in 2012 claiming all T-90 problems were fixed a long time ago. I remember Archer posting the same stupid article from a different source in 2010 or 2011 and claiming the same thing kept repeating forever when it was actually fixed very early on.
 

Godless-Kafir

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This is at angle of 30 degrees. Side turret armor over crew and turret bustle in Arjun should be +/- 70-80mm max of RHA. If I am correct 70-80mm at that angle should give ~140-160mm, which means it does not provide protection even against less capable RPG's used today.

and the Japanese type-90 and leopard-2A?
 

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