Arjun vs T90 MBT

[sayareakd]

But are we 100% certain the T-90 has no APU?

We don't have enough information to confirm this. Imagine if there was a war and the T-90s came with APUs installed overnight.

There are APUs available for export from multiple countries for the T-series. If the top brass decided they currently don't need APUs then there may be a reason we may not know of.

:clobber:

check the date on this document and you will know what i mean

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/289/AC310512.pdf

 

[p2prada]

Ok, then this is confirmed info.

Any idea who it was sent to? DRDO or others as well?

 

[Decklander]

Infact, Arjun has forced these modifications on T-90. Arjun is the father of many new features on T-90MS and yet we belittle Arjun. Now since this question of range and logistics is settled in favour of Arjun. Let us now discuss the Guns of these two tanks. @Damian,
tanks were first introduced in trench warfare in France in 1917 during WW1.
The real classic tank battles took place in WW2. What was the range at which tanks engaged eachother in WW2 and at what range they engaged in battle during gulf war-2? has the engagement range increased or decreased? IA & PA also had classic tank battles in 1965 & 1971. What ranges did they engage each other during those wars?
The size of the tanks has also reduced due to advances in metallurgy and engines so they offer a smaller cross section now compared with what they did in WW2.
Which tank among Arjun and T-90 has better accuracy for small targets and at ranges which are now common place in Tank battles?
Pls reply.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

This bullshit, T-90 came with no APU and we are sitting ducks, Arjun is set out to die because of this imported crap tank sitting in competition and killing Arjun Project.

 

[sayareakd]

Ok, then this is confirmed info.

Any idea who it was sent to? DRDO or others as well?

it is RFI for whole world to respond.

 

[SPIEZ]

:clobber:

check the date on this document and you will know what i mean

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/289/AC310512.pdf

good work Saya

 

[Decklander]

:clobber:

check the date on this document and you will know what i mean

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/289/AC310512.pdf

T-90 & T-72 even today have no APU. They are prone to failure of electronics due to overheating inside the tanks in Thar & Punjab plains. Unfit to fight battle during day and can't fight at night due to non availability of night sights. So basically we have white elephants. saving grace is that if we are blind, PA is double blind.
Ek andha toh dusra kodhee.

 

[sayareakd]

T-90 & T-72 even today have no APU. They are prone to failure of electronics due to overheating inside the tanks in Thar & Punjab plains. Unfit to fight battle during day and can't fight at night due to non availability of night sights. So basically we have white elephants. saving grace is that if we are blind, PA is double blind.

yes sir the very fact that they have asked for RFI for AC and APU shows that Tanks have problem in the area you mentioned.

 

[Decklander]

yes sir the very fact that they have asked for RFI for AC and APU shows that Tanks have problem in the area you mentioned.

So if we have problem with Pak 2mrw, we shud ask them to wait for winters as our tanks will not be able to fight. And pray to god that they accept our proposal.
What do you say Damian? I think this the best way to fight is it not?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Russian built the tank for Cold winter climate, the t-90 had HUGE teething problems in the Indian summer, massive electronics failures etc.,

Some how they are over looked and Arjun is not given a chance to come out of it. The T-90 is a curse to our MBT program.

 

[cloud_9]

Somehow the thread went from T90 vs. Arjun to D vs. D

I was looking forward to the "tactics employed by PA to counter our strike corps" bit of the discussion

 

[Decklander]

Russian built the tank for Cold winter climate, the t-90 had HUGE teething problems in the Indian summer, massive electronics failures etc.,

Some how they are over looked and Arjun is not given a chance to come out of it. The T-90 is a curse to our MBT program.

Hold on. I have justed started on this site. Let Damian respond to my second question and we will demolish all those who say Arjun is bad.

 

[Decklander]

Somehow the thread went from T90 vs. Arjun to D vs. D

I was looking forward to the "tactics employed by PA to counter our strike corps" bit of the discussion

Bro we will not discuss very many details here as that can tell our enemy as to how much we know about them. So I am handicapped but will do post things which have been in press already.

 

[sayareakd]

@Decklander, sir most of the people who are judging Arjun and saying all the negative things, have not seen it in real life.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Granted Arjun has an issue with side armor but the tank is not meant for Urban conflict and only for face to face conflict in the Thar desert against PA or worst situation in high altitude deserts against PLA.

 

[Damian]

tanks were first introduced in trench warfare in France in 1917 during WW1.
The real classic tank battles took place in WW2. What was the range at which tanks engaged eachother in WW2 and at what range they engaged in battle during gulf war-2? has the engagement range increased or decreased? IA & PA also had classic tank battles in 1965 & 1971. What ranges did they engage each other during those wars?
The size of the tanks has also reduced due to advances in metallurgy and engines so they offer a smaller cross section now compared with what they did in WW2.

? What this have to do with discussion? As for battle ranges, it is a well estabilished that as current technology permitts, conventional ammunition is meant to be used only up to 4,000m, while any longer range should be govered by guided munitions.

Which tank among Arjun and T-90 has better accuracy for small targets and at ranges which are now common place in Tank battles?

It depends on ammunition and weapon used. For coaxial machine gun in all MBT's it is still mostly spray the bullets, more precise than in past but still it is spraying.

As for firing ammunition from main gun in to small targets. HESH is not accurate, and neither is good HE round due to it's working mechanism. Standard HE is better, and programmable is even better.

For firing APFSDS and HEAT in to armoured targets, everything depends on stabilization, suspension and FCS, here Arjun should be slightly better.

 

[Damian]

@Godless-Kafir
You said there is no APU outside Arjun turret, I find APU without a problem.

granted the issue with side armor but the tank is not meant for Urban conflict and only for face to face conflict in the Thar desert against PA or worst situation in high altitude deserts against PLA.

Side armor is not meant to protect only from pure 90 degrees sides, but also is providing protection within vehicle 60 degrees arc. It was long time ago, aftert WWII calculated by both Soviet Union and western Allies.

Russian built the tank for Cold winter climate

Which is wrong thinking. Soviet Tanks were tested in deserts as well before induction. Same goes for Western tanks, these were also tested both in arctic and desert conditions.

Later I can show you a documentary that shows how Soviets tested their tanks in desert conditions.

 

[Apollyon]

T-90 & T-72 even today have no APU. They are prone to failure of electronics due to overheating inside the tanks in Thar & Punjab plains. Unfit to fight battle during day and can't fight at night due to non availability of night sights. So basically we have white elephants. saving grace is that if we are blind, PA is double blind.
Ek andha toh dusra kodhee.

PA's Al-Khalid and T-80UD (?) have dual-magnification thermal imaging sight for Night Vision

 

[Damian]

Pakistan T-80UD is not a standard Soviet T-80UD or Object 478B but improved Object 478BE, with better protection and thermal sights.

 

[p2prada]

@Decklander

Can we be a little more realistic on your comments on the T-90. It looks like you have been reading the media a little too much. The news about T-90s failure in the desert was a one off situation and was rectified very early, the issue of the Catherine failing. T-90 is capable of night time duties and isn't a white elephant. As a matter of fact, I would like to know where you got this information from.

Btw, I had compiled information from an interview given by some of the Army commanders in a news channel and here it is:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-204.html#post537890

The current regiments moved from Vijayanta to Arjun. It is very obvious they will be happy with a 3rd gen tank. Like a Mig-21 pilot being moved to the MKI. Huge difference.

Then, like I had mentioned many times before, the Arjun does not fit into the logistics chain even today, 12 years after T-90 was inducted. Heck, by the time Arjun Mk2 is inducted T-90 would already have finished half it's life.

Then there was a very important point. Arjun has no spares available. Sure they need greater numbers, but 124+124 tanks are a big number if you consider how big European armies are today.

When they talk of T-90, like I mentioned many times again, when the T-90 was ready, the Arjun was not. So, the "need of the hour" forced IA to look for another tank apart from Arjun. As far as tank lore goes, once a tank is inducted it is never replaced until it cannot run anymore. So, the T-90 is to stay no matter how advanced Arjun becomes form here on.

Arjun crews are asked to come to Chennai and collect spares from the HVF in Avadi. Funny That! Comparatively the entire maintenance setup of the T-90 exists.

As for the trials,

Arjun has better ergonomics, but that is not surprising because the Arjun is the latest while T-90s were configured in 1996.

Arjun had inferior accuracy during the first night but bettered the T-90 the next night. But we already know the Arjun was supposed to have superior accuracy due to better electronics compared to T-90s 1996 custom.

During mobility trials the T-90 and Arjun were equal. So, even T-90 is a desert Ferrari. Only one Arjun messed up and it was human error.

Very important, Arjun's penetration capability using APFSDS is lesser than T-90s. An important point which I had always pointed out since even before the trials were conducted.


Arjun has good fire on the move capability, expected.

The problem is not how the Arjun performed, but RELIABILITY.

Arjun can take a hit from the T-72 at point blank range (so can the T-90).

Arjun failed at logistics, mobility(transport), acceptability etc.

Arjun can only build up these above flaws if inducted in good numbers. But, the Army is looking for a tank which goes beyond Arjun's capabilities.


FMBT will be 48 tons.

At this point, IA is a little ahead of the PA armour. So, PA has closed the gap considerably. However other aspects like mechanized infantry and support is still better than PA.

Both Arjun and T-90 suffered from teething problems and were fixed in time.

One talks about changing goal posts by changing GSQR, but another says the changes in GSQR are valid because of the amount of time Arjun has taken for development. "So, you can't accept something that was made 50 years ago."

Arjun does not fire HEAT... 11:16, second video.

On the future,
FMBT should be lighter but it really depends on requirements. The Brigadier is assuming the FMBT will have lesser protection because of the weight class, but we need to see how it pans out.

All this stuff has already been discussed and most of it I already mentioned in this very forum.

If you focus on the red, I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the T-90s have no night capability when in fact it was the Arjun that failed the first time.

Also, there is nothing wrong with T-90s capability in the desert. In fact, it was one of the best performing tank out of all eastern and western tanks during the trials in Saudi Arabia. If the manufacturer is to be believed, it was the best during the trials with no engine changes required during a 1500Km run in a freak sandstorm compared to engine changes required on all other tanks.

Anyway, the videos for reference.
Defence Line Army's Battle With Arjun 23 June 2012 Part 1 - YouTube

Defence Line Army's Battle With Arjun 23 June 2012 Part 2 - YouTube