Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Damian]

Since you need data from books, let me ask you another question. A tank has cross country ability of 25kmph. That means it can travel 600kms in a day in cross country battle envoirnment. Pls tell me which country or tank formation has ever done it? has anyone been able to go beyond 75kms in a day? Thats the limit of our CSD also. Is it not? So we have a tank sitting in hiding or idling for nearly 21 hrs in a day.
Arjun has APU which allows it to shoot even when its engines are turned off. T-90 will have to keep its engines running or it will have a big time lag before it can even enter the battle. So which tank has better range and less reqt of logistics?
Pls respond. I will tear you apart piece by piece here.

I think you do not understand. APU can be installed on any tank. For example M1 series were not designed with APU, but APU was added later. APU can be installed as a module outside a hull or turret.

I think you seek any disadvantage of T-90 that is not really a disadvantage because cna be quickly and cheaply corrected.

There is APU for Arjun? So just mount it on the rear of T-90 turret, it is that simple. Or if not rear of turret then rear of hull.

Besides this, even without APU, you can still use FCS and fire a gun with main engine shut down. Simply because power is taken from batteries. There are estabilished limits of how long power can be taken from batteries before it will not be possible to turn engine on. Or at least should be, I know US Army have such limits estabilished.

Besides you do not really need APU, for example Americans completely resigned from APU's in M1A2SEP v2's that are the most digitzed tanks in their invetories, untill new more efficent APU won't be ready, so instead of APU, they installed so called Hawker Battery Packs.

So there is plenty of solutions for tanks, only it seems people do not know much, or do not even want to learn from other nations experiences.

 

[Iamanidiot]

I am not a fool to post classified data here.

Pardon me sir being a civilian hard for me distinguish between the classified and non-classified

 

[p2prada]

Interesting, I did not know about the battery packs on the SEP.

 

[Decklander]

Mount it outside at the rear??? is this what you posted? It will be cooked by just machine gun fire. Do you even have an idea that we are discussing tanks here. If you do that whole of PA will know where to shoot to cripple T-90.
What is the capability of those batteries? How long can they sustain? Even Arjun has batteries. So what is it that T-90 brings to table which is better than Arjun?

 

[Damian]

I will show you something.

This is a Polish equivalent to TUSK like up armor kits for T-72 tanks. Relatively cheaply developed, you can see added APU on the rear right side sponson of the hull. So there is really no problem with adding APU to the Indian T-72's and T-90's.

I think that the problem is not technical or technological aspect, but the problem are with decision makers, who are not acting fast enough.

Mount it outside at the rear??? is this what you posted? It will be cooked by just machine gun fire. Do you even have an idea that we are discussing tanks here. If you do that whole of PA will know where to shoot to cripple T-90.

And you think where it is mounted on Arjun? On the outside. On the M1A1's and basic M1A2's APU is also outside, wait a moment I will show you a photos.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

@Damian Not able to find where your pic talks about external APU mounting? Could you point out.

Moreover the point DL makes is valid, there is no APU on T-90 as of now, so we are comparing specs on what is available, we could strap on loads of stuff on Arjun and make it like M1 but thats a supposed.

 

[Decklander]

Show me where it is mounted on Arjun? It is integral and part of original design. remember we are not discussing web based data here, we are discussing real battle scenerios.

 

[p2prada]

That's where you will find the T-90MS's APU. That's where you may find the T-90S's APU too, if there is one.

This one has a 7KW diesel unit.

I think there is a Ukranian gas turbine version for 16KW.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Lets talk practical here, take Indian T-90S into picture not Russian or projected upgrades but what India is presently operating same for Arjun MK-1 ..

 

[Damian]

Ok here it is. 3 pics shows M1 series APU mounting points. The oldest photo shows first APU design mounted to the hull rear, the photo next to it shows later more common APU design mounted on the turret rear, the lowest photo shows left side rear hull sponson with a space for APU in initial production batches of M1A2SEP v1, later instead of APU in this place are installed Hawker Battery Packs. The Arjun APU is clearly visible in the turret rear, right sight, hope that it is visible on that photo I marked out it there.



This is typical how APU's are installed. Also, the size of Arjun Mk1 APU, suggest that it should be without any problems, be installed on the rear of the turret of T-90S. Why anyone did not thinked about such simple solution? At least as a short term one, at least until new common APU design for all Indian tanks could not be designed?

 

[Decklander]

So we are helping Russians to modify a tank while we have the original and better version?
gentlemen, I think the first round of this debate goes to Arjun. T-90 needs modification for APU, Arjun does not and that means Arjun has longer range than T-90 with less reqt of logistics. Logistics is very very imp aspect of battle. if you dont have a good supply chain, you will loose a battle the way Rommel did in Africa.
What have you got to say Damian?

 

[Damian]

Read above, this is what I say. Use the Arjun APU on T-90S as interim solution untill new APU that could be used as a common for all Indian tanks won't be designed.

Damn if there is anyone using common sense out there?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Damian, It can be but it is not,Same as Arjun use rifled gun but can use smooth-bore too but it does not, the aim is to magnify flaws in both tanks and advantages over each other, I will provide specs of both shortly..

 

[Ray]

I would merely say that what is good for India is what we buy.

Good for India means many parameters including costs, manufacturing infrastructure and technical transfer.

As I said, weapons for one country may not be suitable for another because of operational doctrine, terrain, climate and a whole host of other issues.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Technical specs of Indian design Arjun MBT and Russian design Indian T-90S.. >>>>

 

[Damian]

@Kunal Biswas, you know what is the problem, as I said, it is nor technical neither technological, it is because somewhere there, in decision making circles, nobody is thinking by using common sense.

Even Arjun's gun can be modified to be smoothbore instead of rifled and using standard NATO ammunition of 120mm calliber. No problem there, but as I said, nobody is thinking.

 

[Ray]

@Kunal Biswas, you know what is the problem, as I said, it is nor technical neither technological, it is because somewhere there, in decision making circles, nobody is thinking by using common sense.

I would be surprised if the officers at the Armoured Corps Directorate and the DGWE are totally daft along with the Defence Ministry.

But then, you would know more!

 

[Damian]

@Ray oh don't worry, we have very similiar problems with MoD's bureaucrats in Poland. Engineers are great, but these fools from MoD are many times making idiotic decisions.

 

[p2prada]

T-90 needs modification for APU

But are we 100% certain the T-90 has no APU?

We don't have enough information to confirm this. Imagine if there was a war and the T-90s came with APUs installed overnight.

There are APUs available for export from multiple countries for the T-series. If the top brass decided they currently don't need APUs then there may be a reason we may not know of.

 

[p2prada]

The last Shukla wrote, the logistics chain for Arjun does not exist. The guys travel from home base all the way to Avadi for spares. That's over 1000Km.