Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Damian]

If a tank can shoot a much better round against which you have no defence or needs no illumination or designation at that range, which one is better?

The better is that round that have a better penetration values against specific type of armor.

But hey, I see what you done here, you are using slogans, not the specific data, for example type of ammunition and it's characteristics. And if you thinking about firing HESH, then HESH is obsolete piece of junk inefficent against any vehicle with modern protection.

You have limited storage in a tank for rounds and missiles, once you run out of missiles, will you wait for an enemy to come closer to you so that you can accurately target him, he may still have missiles with him? So Arjun bcoz of its better accuracy has bigger advantage.

You have no advantage if you have useless ammunition without proper penetration characteristics... the other thing is that neither India, neither Pakistan, neither China have modern ammunition with proper penetration capabilities.

Hawkins theories regarding Black holes have been completely demolished by the work of an Indian Called Ramanujam way back in 1920s. So much so that Hawkins had to accept that he was wrong.

And? Oh wait I get it, you are Indian nationalist and rascist and we should be your humble servants? Yeah I heard that in India there is huge problem with rascism and constant proving "we are superior!".

When the rubber coated round is fired, the burning of rubber coating actually increases the pressure of the gun resulting in much higher velocity.

How much increases and how it will corespond to the characteristics of other types of ammunition and guns? How much higher will be velocity, did You asked this questions, or just believed in some statement... oh wait of course you believed, you will dimnish any non Indian statement, but when some Indian will say "hey we developed a star destroyer" you will believe.

That Israeli guy qouted in last post has let out many secrets of Arjun and I wud like to knw which forum this guy is on to pass on to relevant authorities to block this spillage of info on a blog site. he is speaking far too much of truth.

I will tell you a secret, I'am working on a super secret goverment program!

You get the sarcasm or I will need to translate?

Lastly I had also asked you as to how lack of network centric warfare effect a battle between Arjun & T-90? Pls reply. Each Arjun Tank is a command center on its own while a T-90 cant even talk to another T-90 next to it or designate a target for it.

This is a complete nonsense because T-90 also have a radio, so both can talk to each other. As for network centric warfare... don't be so cocky, in US Army every single combat vehicle have installed FBCB2 and BFT systems, having only a single tank type connected is pathetic way to show your "superiority".

T-90 has lower ht compared to Arjun, so it can hide but Arjun due to its ht can target and see far off compared to T-90. The longer engagement range of Arjun allows it to use its taller stance more effectively than a T-90 as in Tank battles you must destroy enemy and not hide.

Wow, you literally discovered America!

No seriously, what longer engagement range? It is widely estabilished that firing further than 4,000m is wasting ammunition, if target is further you use guided munitions or fire support provided by battle group elements.

The earlier posts have revealed far too much abt the real capabilities of Arjun which were not known to anybody outside IA & DRDO. This blogger must be stopped. He is even letting out secrets which only very few in the whole establishment know.

Incredible, you are panicking not knowing if guys is talking truth, because you also don't know the truth. Not to mention that any of this guy informations are something exciting or impressive even.

You know what, hire ninja assasins, they need to stop him, or the evil Pakistanis will gain the knowledge!

IA did its best to kill this tank in favour of T-90 but now they have even agreed to forget FMBT in favour of Arjun MK2. That shud tell you what all Arjun must have done for this change of heart.

Yeah, like the economy or requirements that were just unrealistic weren't the better reason.

 

[Damian]

@Damian see, there lies the problem. If Arjun had been developed in 5 or ten years you would have said it's BS. With no prior experience, it cannot be done.
We/ I know that 30 years is too long to develop a tank and I agree with you - is shamefully a long time.Reasons being what you have said, no prior experience in developing a tank. Starting from scratch. Observing other tanks.You observe the best tanks and learn from them.That's exactly what the CVRDE did.
It took its time but it in the process learnt what are the best technologies.As as you rightfully said, tank technology is not easily available.Armour protection technology in particular.India did buy parts and placed it in Arjun wherever it could and because of it a significant portion of it is built on imported products/parts.This is however being reduced.I think it has finally turned out into a matured product which the Indian army is willing to invest in by having next versions of it instead of having a Future Main battle Tank.

You know what is the problem. The problem is that first the national propaganda makes from Arjun some wunderwaffe, a super weapon, then there are more and more obvious problems, problems are worked out, but still bunch of morons believe that it is a super weapon.

Arjun itself is not a bad design, and I never said so. It is definetely valuable for India as the basis for further work, but explain me, how the hell you wish to improve, when there is only propaganda of success and no reasonable discussion about drawbacks and what is needed to improve?

This is how the greatest achieved what they have today. In Germany, USA or UK, there was plenty of people asking difficult questions, making impuls to rething many issues, improve, progress, but you can't progress of design is claimed to be perfect or superior to others, why improvements then? It is "perfect" afterall.

I show that there were deficencies in Arjun design, that's all, but all the sudden, bunch of pseudopatriotic nuts started to attack me instead of accept this, and hope that problems will be solved in the next version of the vehicle. If these will be done, ok, it's fine with me because I have absolutely nothing against India or it's national MBT program, I only discuss technology and design solutions, if not then pity, but we need to live further.

Same goes with Leopard 2 or M1, I would also wish that some things would be designed differently in both.

 

[Decklander]

@Damian,
I know the composition of the propellent of this super shot of Arjun but wont divulge here. Also the multibarrell guns being tested now will soon be firing worlds first ever hypersonic bullets to ranges in excess of 3Kms with near flat trajectories. We Indians will give the world the best guns known till date to mankind. This is not the first time that we will do so, Our steel was the best when it came to making Swords, our metallurgy was best when it came to making cannons. The islamists and the British just destroyed it.
Eienstien is more of a propaganda and less of a genius. He became famous by his Theory of Relativity and Special Theory of relativity and E=MCsquare equation. If you ever want to get educated about them you can ask me any question abt them. I am a graduate in Physics. He limited the max speed to the speed of light. For your shock I wish to inform you that Einstien was proved wrong way back in 1930s by an Indian Called Bose who talked about a particle called BOSON and now called Bose-Higgs particle or God's Particle. This particle has speed beyound light. I hope you have heard/read about that. So now two most famous westerners have been proved to be bluffing the world by so called dark poor Indians. I am sure its very difficult to digest for you.
We are a nation which was the economic powerhouse of the world in 18th century till it was destroyed by the British. We will once again regain that spot. 66yrs of freedom is less time to undo what happened over 250 yrs. But we will not take 250 yrs, we will do it in another 30 yrs.
Indians gave the world alloys and purest steel known to men till date, you guys had no clue of them. Pls do some reserch and you will know what I mean.

 

[Decklander]

You know what is the problem. The problem is that first the national propaganda makes from Arjun some wunderwaffe, a super weapon, then there are more and more obvious problems, problems are worked out, but still bunch of morons believe that it is a super weapon.

Arjun itself is not a bad design, and I never said so. It is definetely valuable for India as the basis for further work, but explain me, how the hell you wish to improve, when there is only propaganda of success and no reasonable discussion about drawbacks and what is needed to improve?

This is how the greatest achieved what they have today. In Germany, USA or UK, there was plenty of people asking difficult questions, making impuls to rething many issues, improve, progress, but you can't progress of design is claimed to be perfect or superior to others, why improvements then? It is "perfect" afterall.

I show that there were deficencies in Arjun design, that's all, but all the sudden, bunch of pseudopatriotic nuts started to attack me instead of accept this, and hope that problems will be solved in the next version of the vehicle. If these will be done, ok, it's fine with me because I have absolutely nothing against India or it's national MBT program, I only discuss technology and design solutions, if not then pity, but we need to live further.

Same goes with Leopard 2 or M1, I would also wish that some things would be designed differently in both.

We attacked you bcoz you used outdated info to buttress your POV. Your info was not upto date but you claimed it was so. Only two nations have the ability to fire that super shot of Arjun, India and USA and both have refused to share it with Russia and Israel respectively. Who happen to be their closest nations.

 

[Decklander]

@Tolaha,
Brother you will do a big service to your nation If you are indian by sending me link to those posts. We need to stop is asap b4 further damage is done. It will be very easy for us to locate this man in Israel and make him pay for his stupidity.

 

[Damian]

I know the composition of the propellent of this super shot of Arjun but wont divulge here.

And I know god in person, seriously!

Only because you know the composition of propelant charge, won't mean it is superior to other types.

Also the multibarrell guns being tested now will soon be firing worlds first ever hypersonic bullets to ranges in excess of 3Kms with near flat trajectories.

What the hell you are talking about, there is no such thing as multibarrel gun for a tank, what you want to place there a minigun. A wet fantasy of yours. There were tested multiple calliber guns for tanks like XM291. As for railguns, it will be a long time untill there will be small enough, light enough and power efficent enough power source for them to be installed in a vehicle.

We Indians will give the world the best guns known till date to mankind.

Well, it seems that ideology of Adolf Hitler about ubermenche is not unknown to you eh? We should beg you for mercy! It is a sarcasm.

This is not the first time that we will do so, Our steel was the best when it came to making Swords, our metallurgy was best when it came to making cannons. The islamists and the British just destroyed it.

Wait a second, you make a British and Muslims a scapegoat, but you should defeat them with ease, with such a briliant technology, after all they were just inferior in all aspects morons who should conquer the Europe, even whole world!

You get the idea, or I will need to explain.

Eienstien is more of a propaganda and less of a genius. He became famous by his Theory of Relativity and Special Theory of relativity and E=MCsquare equation. If you ever want to get educated about them you can ask me any question abt them. I am a graduate in Physics. He limited the max speed to the speed of light. For your shock I wish to inform you that Einstien was proved wrong way back in 1930s by an Indian Called Bose who talked about a particle called BOSON and now called Bose-Higgs particle or God's Particle. This particle has speed beyound light. I hope you have heard/read about that. So now two most famous westerners have been proved to be bluffing the world by so called dark poor Indians. I am sure its very difficult to digest for you.

I know, and I do not care what was doscivered by who. Because I am above your childish nationalism... you should be ashamed even, using something such beautifull as sciencie for your nationalistic hatred to other nationalities.

We are a nation which was the economic powerhouse of the world in 18th century till it was destroyed by the British. We will once again regain that spot. 66yrs of freedom is less time to undo what happened over 250 yrs. But we will not take 250 yrs, we will do it in another 30 yrs.
Indians gave the world alloys and purest steel known to men till date, you guys had no clue of them. Pls do some reserch and you will know what I mean.

But but, you were so powerfull and you were destroyed by primitives?! Do you see any sence here?

Of course there is no sence, it is just easy explanation for imbeciles who likes to heal their butthurted ego.

 

[pmaitra]

So why Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 were defeated by tanks armed with smoothbore guns.

Because correlation is not causation. Were the shells of same mass and dimensions? Did they have same type and amount of propellant? Did they deliver the same power on impact?

If smoothbore were better than rifles, modern armies would fight with muskets.

I have already posted why (fin stabilized or not) smoothbore is bad, which you have not countered, and now you are back repeating the same old "smoothbore better than rifle" argument.

 

[Damian]

Do not compare a musket to a modern high velocity, high pressure gun firing fin stabilized ammunition.

You might believe in what you wish, but Germans, Soviets, Americans or French had good reasons to transisition in to smoothbore guns.

Also Americans tested several different rifled guns, all of them were inferior in penetration and accuracy to the German smoothbore gun, this means something.

 

[Dejawolf]

heh, the leopard 2 had chrome lining back in 1979, it's no new technology. it does increase barrel life, and also reduces the loss of accuracy experienced with a non-chrome lined gun.
the "rubber band" is called a slip ring, it's to counter the rotation caused by a rifled barrel, so apfsds rounds won't wobble through it's flight, and the leopard 1 had slip rings on it's rounds. so a slip ring does increase accuracy and penetration
but only on a rifled gun.
a rifled gun is more accurate with HEAT and HE rounds, however, it's less accurate with APFSDS rounds, and also less powerful.
there's several reasons for this.
first is velocity. due to the propellant gases slipping through the cracks in the rifling, muzzle velocity is reduced compared to a similar smoothbore gun.

second is wobble. the slip ring reduces the rotation, it doesn't remove it entirely. even a tilt as small as 5 degrees is enough to drastically reduce the penetration power of a tank round. and also this wobbling reduces velocity.

the LAHAT however, might be the only saving grace of the Arjun. it's a truly exceptional round, pretty much a lower power hellfire fired from a tank gun, and allows for the Arjun to indirectly attack targets from a completely concealed position, as long as the target is illuminated with a laser designator. only the merkava fields a similar system, with similar range and capabilities.
however, according to Lifefist, IMI was blacklisted back in march:
Livefist: India Blacklists 6 Defence Firms
so dunno how that has affected the program, and acquisition of LAHAT missiles

also according to livefist Arjun mk.1 is not capable of firing LAHAT, due to lack of the LAHAT laser designator?
and this designator is only going to be added to the mk.2 in 2015?

 

[pmaitra]

@Damian and @Dejawolf,

I would invite you to counter this post that explains this very well: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-push-through-t-90-purchase-6.html#post624490

[HR][/HR]

@Dejawolf, the propellant gases escaping throught the rifle-grooves is alos applicable in case of assault rifles, but that does not motivate people to switch to muskets. So your argument is poor.

[HR][/HR]

@Damian, I had conceded earlier that smoothbore has more longevity than rifle, but I would like to share this with you.

Types of Rifling:

So you see, people have developed rifles that are actually marginally less long lasting than a smoothbore. So that advantage of smoothbore, w.r.t. longevity, is no longer significant.

Edit: I am trying to find a picture of the Arjun's rifle. I think it is not polygonal. Not sure. If I find it, I will post here.

 

[Dejawolf]

found some webpage with general info on the Arjun tank gun:
120 Millimetre MBT Arjun Armament System

 

[Dejawolf]

hmm, well this is disturbing. i really hope the indians have a better 120mm APFSDS round in development, because the one in that picture..
i estimated the length of the round based on caliber and round length, the penetrator rod seems to be around 340-360mm long, and about 28-30mm thick.
muzzle velocity of 1650m/s, and the material is tungsten.
the german 120mm DM-13 round is made of tungsten, has a rod length 360mm and diameter of 27mm and it has a penetration of 390mm@2km...
T-90A front turret armor is known to be equivalent to 850mm RHA, and T-80U front turret is around 700-750mm.

 

[pmaitra]

hmm, well this is disturbing. i really hope the indians have a better 120mm APFSDS round in development, because the one in that picture..
i estimated the length of the round based on caliber and round length, the penetrator rod seems to be around 340-360mm long, and about 28-30mm thick.
muzzle velocity of 1650m/s, and the material is tungsten.
the german 120mm DM-13 round is made of tungsten, has a rod length 360mm and diameter of 27mm and it has a penetration of 390mm@2km...
T-90A front turret armor is known to be equivalent to 850mm RHA, and T-80U front turret is around 700-750mm.

Look at the red part. I am not sure why one would need fin stabilization for a rifled gun. Please explain?

 

[t_co]

Look at the red part. I am not sure why one would need fin stabilization for a rifled gun. Please explain?

Traditionally, shells were given stability in flight from the rifling of the gun barrel, which imparts a spin to the round. Up to a certain limit this is effective, but once the projectile's length is more than six or seven times its diameter, rifling becomes less effective.

Kinetic energy penetrator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pmaitra]

Kinetic energy penetrator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you. Good explanation.

 

[Tolaha]

@Tolaha,
Brother you will do a big service to your nation If you are indian by sending me link to those posts. We need to stop is asap b4 further damage is done. It will be very easy for us to locate this man in Israel and make him pay for his stupidity.

@Decklander,

Have messaged you the link as well as the possible sources, with some details!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The present Arjun AP ammo penetration is 460mm of RHA from 2000ms..

There is one developed of 500mm of RHA from 2000m and a 650mm is under development..

hmm, well this is disturbing. i really hope the indians have a better 120mm APFSDS round in development, because the one in that picture..i estimated the length of the round based on caliber and round length, the penetrator rod seems to be around 340-360mm long, and about 28-30mm thick.
muzzle velocity of 1650m/s, and the material is tungsten. the german 120mm DM-13 round is made of tungsten, has a rod length 360mm and diameter of 27mm and it has a penetration of [email protected] front turret armor is known to be equivalent to 850mm RHA, and T-80U front turret is around 700-750mm.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It seems we are all repeating the same story again..

Some points >>

1. Arjun Rifle-gun is working fine at the moment but future need as per Army is smooth-bore so MK3 may feature smooth-bore 120m gun..

2. Arjun accuracy is better as per specs compare to present tanks in IA also much better in Night..

3. Arjun have a big mantel, and its sight is placed similar as Leo2a4, And it`s its sides are half Armored..

4. Kanchan Armour on MK1 endured greater penetration than 500mm of RHA from IMI made round at point blank ranges ( 50-100m for 2a46m )

5. It has great mobility over all terrains better snorkel ability ( reduce preparation time ) lower ground pressure than any other tanks in IA ..

5. Ammo storage design is better than other tanks in IA..

 

[Dejawolf]

The present Arjun AP ammo penetration is 460mm of RHA from 2000ms..

There is one developed of 500mm of RHA from 2000m and a 650mm is under development..

and when are these rounds going to be fielded?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Regarding 500mm@2km, Its operational and 650mm@2km will be inducted with induction of Arjun MK2..

and when are these rounds going to be fielded?