Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Decklander]

It is no point arguing with @Damian. He is just not open to any reasoning. I stopped posting on this thread just bcoz of that reason.
But see how indian brain works to solve most complex problems with cheapest and most workable solutions, this use of rubber coating a round is really amazing, is it not? I was told abt this by my frnds but decided not to post it as it was not in public domain till now.

 

[Damian]

It is no point arguing with @Damian. He is just not open to any reasoning.

No, I'am just not open for stupidity of people.

But see how indian brain works to solve most complex problems with cheapest and most workable solutions, this use of rubber coating a round is really amazing, is it not? I was told abt this by my frnds but decided not to post it as it was not in public domain till now.

And now ask a question how much the rubber slow downs the projectile in the barrel. To improve velocity in the west there was first attempt to use alluminium sabots, but in the end it was desides to go with even less dense and heavy composite sabots.

Not to mention, in what actually rubber is helping? Decreasing barrel wear? Just go with a smoothbore, and you would not need to add additional unnececary weight to the projectile which do not help in any way during penetration process.

Avarage density of rubber is 1-1,2 g/cm3.

PS. Indian brain is same as brain of other humans beings, there is nothing amazing there, besides the rascist and pseudo patriotic rampage here.

 

[tharikiran]

We know for a fact that India and Israel have close defence ties.We also know that Israel has extensive experience in developing tanks .We know Merkava is a good tank.We know Chinese also tried to take help from Israel in tank development.That to me means Chinese accept Israeli knowledge when it comes to tanks.
Now, if someone is tells me that India is not taking advantage of this knowledge from Israel, I can only let them stick to their prejudices.
Let's forget about the links provided by Ersakthivel. The fact is Israel is helping in Arjun development.That is a fact.I hope everyone here including Damian accepts Israeli tank knowledge.
Even the Indian Army has turned around and is accepting Arjun.

Lets not go into specifics like how rubber is helping.We don't know what kind of material it is.If it's classified, how does one expect us to give numbers and figures.

 

[militarysta]

(...).

Your work here is amazing!
Very good 3D images. Im deeply impressed.
And congratulations of the professionalism and perseverance in translating damn obvious* things about Ajrun.

* obvious for any person interested in modern tank on deeper level then "discovery" or "we have super-duper Ajrun" level.

 

[Damian]

We know for a fact that India and Israel have close defence ties.

So what, you think that Israelis will share every secret with you? Oh believe me, they are not that stupid as you may think, nobody is.

We also know that Israel has extensive experience in developing tanks .

Which does not mean that knowledge is good for everyone, who else use Merkava?

We know Merkava is a good tank.

It is good tank, but have weaknesses, very serious weaknesses not present in many other designs.

Now, if someone is tells me that India is not taking advantage of this knowledge from Israel, I can only let them stick to their prejudices.

I'am 100% sure that you never had access to the real work on national security issues. Believe me kid, nobody is providing it's biggest secrets and developments for others, especially if there is risk of compromising informations.

The fact is Israel is helping in Arjun development.That is a fact.I hope everyone here including Damian accepts Israeli tank knowledge.

Germany provided help for developing Argentinian TAM, and what, if it is in anyway comparable in performance to Leopard 2? No. Providing support is not because country x like country y but because country y provides money for country x for support, and country x is not obligated to transfer all of it's solutions to country y.

Perhaps it is time to grown up, and learn the good old british proverb "British Empire do not have eternal friends, it have eternal interests", this applies to politics of all countries.

BTW. As for the Merkava, actually I remember a discussion with Marsh gelbart who knows General Israel Tal, creator of the Merkava in person, Marsh said that General Tal was not completely happy for the Merkava, and asked what he would change in design he said many things, among them suspension.

Als people must understand why Merkava was designed with engine at front. It is not because it is such great, but because Israel back then, when Merkava was designed, did not had access to composite armors technology.

In fact Merkava Mk1 and Mk2 were primitive tanks compared to tanks used by NATO or Soviet Union, Mk3 was more up to the level of NATO standards, still it's frontal protection, especially of hull, was inferior due to simple lack of composite armor there.

Merkava Mk4 is still uncertain design, I have my doubts if the engine compartment have composite armor protection, and considering capabilities of modern ammunition, engine might not be any sort of obstacle for them, in future as well.

The studies in Soviet Union had also interesting results, they claimed that engine at front actually weakens protection not improve it.

 

[tharikiran]

@Damian I guess you are entitled to have your assumptions regarding Indo-Israeli cooperation.How much technology is being shared or not shared is pure speculation on our parts and therefore your argument doesn't hold.As you and me are not privy to it.Our Pakistani brothers should be able to answer better about Indo-Israeli cooperation.

 

[Damian]

No it is just a common sense. Even Americans do not share all their technologies with Israel or other allies, same goes for others.

You know why Merkava Mk4 was so long baned for exports by Israeli goverment? Because they did not agreed to share armor technology and some other design solution, so probably they needed a time to develop downgraded analogs for exports. Now Merkava Mk4 is aproved for exports.

And just tell, you would wish to export Arjun knowing that every bit of mystery about tanks used by IA would be revealed to the world? For example Kanchan armor? I am sure not, this is why downgraded export analog would be needed to be developed.

It is especially important to countries which have clear adversaries.

Look at Chine, they not only do not export tanks used by their armed forces, but develop specially for export, so called export tanks, like MBT-2000, MBT-3000, VT-1A etc.

Only naives believe that everyone will be so kind to share all classified informations. Israel is definetly one of these countries that due to very clear adversaries will keep it's secrets and not share them, as does UK, USA, China, I am sure India do the same.

It is as naive as believe that without any experience in designing you can all the sudden design a weapon system like tank, that will be on the same level to the top tier designs developed by these, who have much greater experiences.

 

[Tolaha]

I am a total noob as far as tanks concerned and I do not have any working or bookish knowledge on tanks! Just posting some comments from the link shared by @ersakthivel. These comments are supposed to be made by an Israeli tank specialist who is supposed to have worked on Arjun tanks in the early stages. And they were made in context of a comparison of Arjun with Type-98 in 2004.

Ok for the guys who have not read much abt Arjun and its capability, I'm putting here some posts made by the Israeli (whom many Indians in here too wud be aware of) who happened to have worked on the Arjun project. I’m posting some of his posts from another forum, so interested ppl can read it and can try to understand that almost all of Arjun’s problem â€" except the new engine - have been resolved beyond belief of the critics and that many new ‘items’ also have been incorporated into the Arjun which finally made the IA to clear it for the production. But that said personally I’d have loved to see Arjun in a totally different way, but then in its current form its as good as it can get and can FIGHT its way out against the best out there w/o any doubt. So not surprisingly every Indian wud be proud of this achievement as this was the very first step to building an indigenous tank and the hard lessons learnt from this 30 yrs of ‘problem solving’ will indeed put the indigenous tank developers in good stead in designing new, upgrading the existing ones and in collaborating on new projects in the future and that’s truly a achievement that the Arjun team has achieved and Hats off to them for pulling it out!

Let me put some info abt the member that the member himself have posted abt him which is all whats needed as of now â€"


I have been with Armour & Systems and for 9 years now and developed 2 very critical sub systems for the Merkava from scratch and were regarded as a breakthrough. My father too worked on these tanks and has his share. Anyway thats me.


So thats the person describing himself , now for his posts abt the Arjun developments as he posted with some modification by me in the posts (not to the substance or his original post) -

Quote:
THE BEAST WALKS THE DESERT AGAIN


Loads of development on Arjun...

- Active area defence system tested to user satisfaction...

- 34/37 successful LAHAT..the 2 fail were tuning trials so actually 34/34 100% hits.. weight is reduced by 1.3 tons.

- No engine problems

- No hydraulic screw ups.

- FCS/BMS/Gen2 TI/ MRI-Ti/ Auto scan and request/ IFF system for strike corps implemented in tank and later same will go to t-90's/72's and finally all mobile units in battlefield. So % kill of friendly is reduced.

- Auto track tested but no one interested -including me as ARM2 (special MRI for Arjun CMDR) scans and beeps at mobile objects on battle field is mis match occurs from scanned input to database.

- AC is working fine - but still not that good. some vents directly fall on FCS/BMS (small ac ducts) to keep temperature down for electronics inside there by keeping overall temp down...this is better as a overall AC is not required and avoids too much load on Engine.

- Its coming out to be a TRUE NIGHT BEAST ... 4km hits and kills are at 100% level on the move at night with ARM2 targeting.

- rotating magazine concept will happen in probably MK3 - so that will have to weight...

- RPG-7 OG7v hits just bounce off the Armour even from rear.

- new nano-carbon aerosol lazer jammer perfected

- two modes of seating one leaning. like challenger and other like Ab.M2 upright...upto user to chose.

- Barrel life counter added to BMS

- self check system further upgraded...simple FIRE WIRE link to onboard system to diagnose tank ..no wire anymore.

- mobile arjun maint. kit 100% complete and tested to user satisfaction.

- For the sighting system...modifications being done to avoid lazer blinders.

- NBC system perfected to AB.Mk2 Sep standard. actually they are the same..we did ToT to India.

- Many other little issues addressed. ...most critiques in Armored units very satisfied..

- summer trials we will re-test and we are quite sure it will do well as most systems were lab tested to worse conditions than in Rajasthan

- independant satcom system added for BMS too..

we see arjun as are adopted baby out here turning out to be a excellent machine...for zeeee night. A Indian serial killer out to rape those little al-kh. he he he...

- Integration tests for air support and Arjun battle target share system(TSS) [part of BMS]tested and 100% A-OK...

- LAHAT launch and air support guiding to target tested and OK too.
Fucccckkkk it will kill a merkava at night...OH GOD WHAT HAVE WE CREATED....
BIG PARTY TODAY


and this too from him replying to the Chinese T-98 and Arjun ...

Quote:
Hi buddy,
I am denil - from Israel and working on the Arjun. I think most of you guys are getting too personal here. Facts are facts.
Buddy i think i can help you out here. Most of the answers to your questions are already in this forum.

Anyway i have been to Singapore and spent some time in assisting Singapore with certain critical upgrades and system design issues. Anyway that is not the point here. I DO KNOW THE T-98 quite well seen the interiors too I guess you have too. The entire tanks metallurgy is MESSED UP... even a RPG -7 will kill the t-98 - sorry but its true. I know about Chinese engineers consulting Israel on these issues. There is talk of a huge assistance from Israel to Chine -but USA is a major bottle neck. You are a market to us - but USA wont let it happen even with some really small issues.

Ok so what do you want to know about the Arjun.

a) On the move it sees you in pitch darkness at 6+KM through MRI-TI devices - ID at about 5.3KM and engage you with comfort at 4.7 KM with super high velocity AP shell..much like the CHARM shell -but much better.

b) At day time it will kill you on the move at 5KM. HeSh at almost 7.5KM.
This tank is no joke my dear man. Its super-chromium lined rifled barrel with revolutionary dual discarding APFSDS shell is a killer.

c) It has as per our own experience and knowledge the fastest AP shot on this planet.

d) FCS/BMS/LAHAT at 6+KM (first people on earth to fire ATGM through rifled barrel using Indian tech of dual cassette disposal- i can explain this in detail to you. But i think someone here can take the trouble to explain CONDOMIZING concept) MRI system etc etc... puts it way out of the t-98.

e) Let me honestly tell you what the t-98 is. It is a honest attempt to make a decent tank and experiment (since there is a lot of money in China to do this) and play with technologies and see what comes out. This one has gone WAY TO WRONG...but nevertheless that’s how all nations learn. next time around most of it will be rectified. Its was also made from a marketing point of view to make some form of dent in the Russian arms market in providing cheap alternates.

f) Metallurgy and China have a long way to go. I know of incidents documented secretly by China and given to El-Op systems for study and rectification - i don’t have the liberty to go into that.

g) Ask what you want on Arjun and i think i will be more helpful. Engine problem (as in Import issue just like the problem with our Merkava's) is being jointly addressed by India and Israel and progress is excellent.


The post below was in reply to the amazing muzzle velocity that Arjun achieved with its 120mm rifled gun , the SECRET ammo of the Arjun which was an Indo-Russian joint development which in all sense will see its use in other tanks in the Indian armory and so will it in Russia and their newer Tanks .....

Quote:
Please understand i will be as liberal as i possibly can be. Certain area's i can not go into depth with.

Q) show how arjun achieve the 5km range with the 120 rifle?
It will be great to get some numbers, like different types of rounds:
1) Their mass,
2) muzzle velocity, Yes way above 1800m/s see if you are doing a standard v=1/m thing here - it will hold little water.

The thing is a 11 yr research which has yelded the hyper velocity (Secret) shell. This is the third type of ammo Arjun fires and is Unique in nature. It is a Joint devp by the Russians and Indians. details of this shell are highly classified. We have fired it and seen the results but have never been allowed to study it. Although we have a fair idea. Its a new type of propelent and a lighter shell (metullargy R&D of Russians) that makes it althought light -making it achieve hyper velocity with a special charge with a crystal tungsten tip giving it penetrations close to a DU round and at the same time a velocity way in excess of what most would be aware off.

Listen i am really short of time...so please do me a favour go here:
scrool down to my 4th post...read it. It will help answer a few of your questions.
4) interior pressure, No can tell


And finally the Super Secret Ammo and the Propellant

Quote:
What nationality is the propellant? German, Israeli or Indian?

Russo-Indian: Israel is very keen on getting its hands on it - till now no success. Germans are aware of it and so are the British for the challenger 2E program. They also want to understand crystallization issues India has had a breakthrough with to develop the Green CHARM 3 ammo. They have been regularly sending requests to negotiate. They saw the demo too and were amazed at the penetration levels... its like rams through any armour you throw at it. We even had our new Armour blocks flown here and it had shown excellent results in tests in Israel. But dam it! Would you know it - it was **** all in front of the Arjun...and that was at some 4.0Km. I keep getting ideas all day long how to stop this round.

 

[tharikiran]

@Damian Yes. it's true.No country gives away all it's secrets.It's true even in the case of T-90 tanks from our Russian brothers if I am not wrong.
But when we ask for Israeli help, I believe it's in spite of knowing what information can be shared and what cannot.And I do agree if Arjun ever gets exported it will not be be at the same level as Indian Arjun for the Indian Army.We know Abrams when it's gets exported is not at the same level as the US models.

I guess people at DRDO also know this stuff and if they are still asking for Israeli help, that means some kind of knowledge is being gained.I guess you will agree that India has some experience in tank warfare.Let's not dismiss it by saying,"India has never developed a tank so it cannot develop one now." Isn't China trying to develop fighter aircraft and ships and tanks on it's own. Yes, India may be slow.But we cannot just assume, that they cannot develop anything.

 

[Tolaha]

Further posts from Defense Talk:

And the reply to the question of wear and tear of the barrel

Quote:
Ok wear and tear: Here is what you are saying

Q: “rifling does increase range and accuracy but actually decreases muzzle velocity. As the grooves on the inside of the barrel "grip" the projectile to spin it, they also slow it down. Not only that it actually wears the barrel down

Ans: This FS-AP you are pointing out is the one with exposed cone. The AP fired from this barrel is a dual stage projectile. The cone is sealed in a condom type rubber around it with 3 burnable line seals. During travel through the barrel it heats up and burns out exposing the main cone on exit â€" and then separates the sabot jacket. So during travel it is as smooth as a smoothbore with a HIGHER velocity and hence a flatter trajectory, better accuracy and greater penetration. The griping by rifling is thus removed from the concept of FS-AP shots…long rod and otherwise. Also note that the “Greenhill's Rule” is pushed to its limits through research. This is a significant contribution of Arjun 120mm to the MBT’s of the world…if ever the tech is declassified.

and a few more questions and answers based on the range and propellants

Quote:
Q a) How have you managed to do an assessment against CHARM?
Ans: The americans did it...we were there for the assessment.

Q b) I’m curious about the HESH of almost 7.5KM. That’s way beyond LOS and makes engagement necessary through prisms or other targeting devices. At 7.5km, I’m assuming that this is an assisted projectile?

Ans: Can not go there
i will address this part first: 8Km is the entire trajectory of the HeSh round. this is nothing more than a capability demo. In actually situation a gunner wont let off the HeSh round at atleast 5.6Km. But this is a phenominal achv. by itself...even now i agree with you..given the terrain where arjun is to be used (Sand Dunes) engagement will be mostly at 2200m to 3Km max. But then again if we change the terrain this excess range of HeSh effective range of 6+Km is a major Advantage. Mind you this HeSh is not our standard TNT/RDX chemical mix...its the new stuff

and to the question of the barrel wear and tear and also the barrel life ...

Quote:
Q) One of the significant issues with bore liners is wear and tear at higher velocities, and there are significant metallurgical issues between the liner and the core barrel. Are you indicating that bore liners are now less of a mating issue with these barrels?

You are 100% correct: this will reamain a issue with Arjun. aFTER ALL THE INNOVATIONS AND BREAKTHROUGS THE BARREL DOES wearout...but it is not a major cause of worry as the wear and tear is better than anything riffled out there-sorry can not reveal exact detail. But take my work...it is not a issue the cmdr will be too worried about.

And that will tell u guys that the Arjun’s rifled gun is something really really different and the best out there and so do the cmdr need not have to worry abt the barrel life coz as said earlier, the Arjun has got a barrel life counter integrated into its BMS

and abt the engine issue, its said that the 1,500hp engine maybe on its way and that summer mean in the post was this summer that passed , but then i hope it don get into Arjun and rather an indigenious one gets in as that wud help reduce costs greatly
Quote:
Q g) If you are still using Russian or Ukrainian engines then I would have a high degree of doubt as to longevity and MTBF issues.

Its a German 1400 engine...almost got the 1500 one ready for trials...will do that this summer. Its looking good.


and abt the new propellant and the time taken for 'solving the problem' of the Arjun
Quote:
One last thing: the propelant was so powerful that it has during the early days poped the barrel out of the tank and broken the FCS with its vibrations...it took 4 yrs just fixing that issue... gives you some idea is HeSh is assisted.

and some more question and answers... hope u guys wud be intrested in reading this ...

Quote:
Q) Sorry for stepping in, but i'm quite annoyed by people here keep saying a rifled tank gun is better while the fact is a smooth bore is obviously superior

Ans)…and that is why I keep saying that this Arjun rifled gun is a accidental find by Indian Engineer’s.
Lets take this point by point and in the process look at the deeper secret of rifled guns, development/advances in chromium lining […gives increased velocity and therefore penetration power to the round, greater precision and reduced wear on the barrel.which is reduced to negligible amount in the Arjun…will explain below] and a Russian high charge shell specially designed for the 120 of Arjun.{sorry can’t say much on this due to classification of technology.}

Q1). The gas seal on a rifled round has to be metal-on-metal contact between the round and the barrel this has a high friction co-efficient -limiting acceleration (see chromium lining as mentioned above) of the rifled round.

Ans] Wrong - overcome by advances in chromium lining and here is what’s new- rounds fired through this 120 are specially designed to reduce friction. This is true for FS-AP and the high power round they developed with the Russians. So rounds fired are a) HesH, b) FS-AP and c) special ammo for high range high impact tank busting (more like a SPIN stabilized round)

Q) On a fin-stabilized round the gas seal can be plastic etc (any suitable low friction material). There are no edges inside the barrel to inhibit acceleration (rifling). So more energy is expended accelerating the round.

Ans] Ok 100% correct (you are saying: “rifling does increase range and accuracy but actually decreases muzzle velocity. As the grooves on the inside of the barrel "grip" the projectile to spin it, they also slow it down) - not valid though. This FS-AP you are pointing out is the one with exposed cone. The AP fired from this barrel is a dual stage projectile. The cone is sealed in a condom type rubber around it with 3 burnable line seals. During travel through the barrel it heats up and burns out exposing the main cone on exit â€" and then separates the sabot jacket. So during travel it is as smooth as a smoothbore with a HIGHER velocity and hence a flatter trajectory, better accuracy and greater penetration. The griping by rifling is thus removed from the concept of FS-AP shots…long rod and otherwise. Also note that the “Greenhill's Rule” is pushed to its limits through research. This is a significant contribution of Arjun 120mm to the MBT’s of the world…if ever the tech is declassified. Our Israli council is working on tech transfer for the same.

… and that’s the reason I had said in my earlier post the British and even the American’s would be interested in this barrel and tech. Apparently these chaps seem to be better in not just software. Believe me I had my opinions about rifling before I saw what I saw.
The reason I didn’t post was because I did’nt have people with your knowledge to share it with.

Q2). The ability to fire a differnt types of ammunitions. This includes missiles and long rod penetrators. (long rod penetrators are long rod like ammunition designed to punch through armour like a "dart". This type of ammunition cannot be spin stablised because the spinning will break the long projectile)

Ans) Missiles are not required by long range powerful guns. Are you saying rifled barrels don’t fire long rods??? Because the do, what do you think the CHARM ammo is! The AP for Arjun is long-rod type. Yes correct spin will break the long rod projectile….again chromium lining and condom’sing the cone was the answer. The spin is actually reduced to extremely slow spin to a point of being negligible …not like a bullet. But note that the Arjun 120mm barrel is one of the most expensive parts of the tank.

Q3). While a rifled helps to stabilise the shell by spinning, it does subject the round to precession. This means the point tends to wander in a small circle. This is less than desirable when you want to punch a hole through armour by brute force.

Ans) same as point 2. Though you are conventionally correct.

Q4). Less wear and tear for smooth bores

While a shell from a rifled gun is marginally more stable over long ranges, this is nothing when compared to the importance of the Fire Control System. With a good FCS, the effect of wind speed and such can be compensated so a fin stablised round can be just as accurate as a spin stablised round.
When we talk about range for tank gun, we talk about the maximum range that the shell can still penetrate enemy armour. In this aspect, a smooth bore gun has better effective range.

Ans) I think these are answered by reading above. Also the “EFFECTIVE” range is of Smooth bore is challenged by rifled hyper velocity long rods which don’t compromise on muzzle velocity and thereby give long effective range.

Q5)Just look at the most modern MBTs in the world, everyone of them saves our own challenger is using a smooth bore gun. Plus our army is talking about switching to smooth bore guns for the challenger 2'sreplacement.

Ans) Correct. The reason why this is a so is due to R&D into various forms of ammo and the diversity achieved in ammo’s and standardization to NATO and cheaper production costs of conventional shells. This is not possible via Rifled guns. The Arjun is designed for this continent with specific objectives and the 3 type ammunition variety more than meet the required demand of the Indian Army. The ground displacement is good, mobility, sensors, crew comfort and ease of driving Superior firepower - to destroy targets (tank/bunker’s) and very good Armour protection.

I would also like to add that Arjun had its 120mm barrel pop out during trials of the Russian high charge ammo about 2 years ago â€" as told to me.

P.S: With developments like the german L55 and DM 53 developments maybe Rifling will have to be droped and smooth bore re-adopted. I guess when R&D started with the Indian's the rifled looked more promising....lets see, time will tell


And this post talks abt the Arjun’s BMS and also of a future version (Mk2 or Mk3?) of Arjun with semi-automatic magazine …..
Quote:
Hi bro's,
I had mentioned the CONDOMISING of rounds on page 1 of this topic...actually i was discussing AP rounds specifically...similar system for LAHAT was adopted here in India and all went fine after 2 tests, the 3rd being made public . This tech of condomizing is 100% Indian. I think you guys are heavily into sex..like writing kamasutra and implementing sexual idea's into tank guns Anyway yes we can say its a Indian-LAHAT. the trix was already there and implemented on this ATGM. Did you know that once lahat is fired from tank A...it can still be guided by Tank B to its target. It is a lang range ATGM. As part of the Arjun BMS system between the tank and other elements on the battlefield - data such as enemy location, target designation can be exchanged with other tanks, or helicopters, artillery, etc., allowing better situation awareness. Moreover, for example a guided LAHAT missile fired by one tank can be guided to its target by another.
Now the idea is to have a MERKAVA type electrical semi-automatic revolving magazine for 10 rounds on standby and the loader coming into action after depletion of these 10. It also increases its ammo capacity.

Yes Arjun fires Long rod TYPE ammo. not a photocopy of CHARM DU type but slightly smaller with a heavy charge...it used to break the targeting sights of Arjun due to the vibration...it was solved though. Isreal is studing the 10 round issue.


The spinoff from 30 yrs of Arjun 'problem solving' also has got itself into the infantry too with the A-7 rifle aka the AK-47 clone to have a good rifled barrel, and so definetely this too wud be the case with the INSAS Rifle and which cud in short mean that India will/has the best rifle ... what do u guys think?

Quote:
Although this may be off topic but i just wanted to tell you that India has a very advanced form of chromium lining tech. this is now being put in all forms of rifling....EVEN THE NEW A-7 ak 47 look alike, result is the penetration power and accuracy of this little toy is astounding... spin off of ARJUN MG to small arms.

-----------------

e] BMS of Arjun is a photocopy of M1A2 BMS + has some stuff from MERKAVA 4 spin off's. If you looked inside - the gadgetry would look better than a Leclerc. Sophisticated touch screen's and all with Gen 2 TI and NOW MRI devices same as MERKAVA Mk4. It will also house the ACTIVE AREA DEFENCE SYSTEM developed by Israel. Has been tested for the same.

 

[Decklander]

@Damian, I had asked you very pointed questions regarding need for accuracy at longer ranges and what was the range at which tanks during gulf war fought? You never replied to them. I also asked you how the accuracy of Arjun at longer range than T-90 effect a dual between these two tanks? I also asked you how will it effect the outcome of a battle? I had asked you the types of modern day tactics used in tank warfare and how low ground pressure of Arjun will effect the outcome in deserts of India which have sand dunes and also Punjab which has a large network of canals which we can breach to our advantage to flood the plains whr the tanks battles are taking place like we did in Khemkaran in 1965 war and wiped out Pattons?
You have never replied to any of these questions but you hijacked this thread to 60* protection angle. We are no fools here and we know what we are talking.
Regarding Indian brain, every man has same kind of brain but there has been only One Eienstien till date. How you use it makes the difference. India is a new comer to designing tanks but we found a very simple and effective solution to one of the most complicated problems to tank guns which actually determine the type of battle that you can fight and at what ranges. The rifled gun with use of rubber coated round has made Arjun far superior to any other tank irrespective of what type of ammo is used and at what range. It will simply outgun every tank.
I had given you a hint when I told you that new gun of Arjun has better life than T-90 due to various additions. What Arjun has achieved with this use of rubber is that it now has two different kind of guns in one single tank. It is like the multibarrel assault rifles which the armies all over the world are trying to induct.
FYI, This rubber coating is not applicable to T-90 rounds as that has smoothbore. So Arjun will outdo any tank in classic tank battles and also urban warfare. Lastly we Indians taught russians the need of crew protection, they never had it as a requirement ever.

 

[Tolaha]

The Israelis seem to have been involved in this project very early on and seem to be having a very high opinion about it, if these posts are to be believed! Along with the German and French contribution in this project, these posts also talk about the Russian involvement that I wasn't aware of earlier. Maybe experts here on DFI can let know their thoughts on these info!

 

[Damian]

- RPG-7 OG7v hits just bounce off the Armour even from rear.

Oh this is just brilliant, OG-7V granades bouncing even from the rear armor... incredible that ammunition designed to defeat humans not vehicles is ineffective against tanks armor.

Yes. it's true.No country gives away all it's secrets.It's true even in the case of T-90 tanks from our Russian brothers if I am not wrong.

It is truth for anyone, even for India. The countries that are most interested in the full share of technology are the smaller ones, that don't have other option.

But when we ask for Israeli help, I believe it's in spite of knowing what information can be shared and what cannot.And I do agree if Arjun ever gets exported it will not be be at the same level as Indian Arjun for the Indian Army.We know Abrams when it's gets exported is not at the same level as the export models.

Now you get the point. Also Israelis will not share every aspect of their solutions, simply because nobody wish to make another country another possible competition on the market.

I guess you will agree that India has some experience in tank warfare.Let's not dismiss it by saying,"India has never developed a tank so it cannot develop one now." Isn't China trying to develop fighter aircraft and ships and tanks on it's own. Yes, India may be slow.But we cannot just assume, that they cannot develop anything.

You do not understand.

There is experience from battlefield, that is important yes, but there is also experience from the designers perspective.

So you have battle use experiences comparable to others, the requirements are known, however completely different thing is to design vehicle per requirements, and even then, not every required point might be achieved.

Look how long it took more experienced nations to move from WWI designs to this day.

 

[tharikiran]

@Damian I think you are wrong at assuming that it will take a long long time just because you don't have previous experience. I agree to some extent, it takes time if you don't collaborate.As some technology is clearly a state secret.Example-- single crystal blades metallurgy. Look at China. What previous experience did it have to make stealth fighters.It is producing stealth aircraft's like toys.

 

[Damian]

I had asked you very pointed questions regarding need for accuracy at longer ranges and what was the range at which tanks during gulf war fought?

Max 3,000m, sometimes more if weather was good enough, but generally firing conventional ammunitions at more than 4,000m is a waste of ammunition. So if range is more than 4,000m it is recommended to use guided munitions or use artillery or other fire support means.

I also asked you how the accuracy of Arjun at longer range than T-90 effect a dual between these two tanks?

T-90 can use guided munition which are allways more accurate at longer ranges, than conventional munitions fired from any gun. Same is prepared for Arjun, so then again, why the hell you need a rifled gun? When at ranges where conventional ammunition, it does not provide any better accuracy than a modern smoothbore gun?

It just have no sence.

I had asked you the types of modern day tactics used in tank warfare and how low ground pressure of Arjun will effect the outcome in deserts of India which have sand dunes and also Punjab which has a large network of canals which we can breach to our advantage to flood the plains whr the tanks battles are taking place like we did in Khemkaran in 1965 war and wiped out Pattons?

And what this have to technical aspects of vehicles?

We are no fools here and we know what we are talking.

I have a different opinion.

Regarding Indian brain, every man has same kind of brain but there has been only One Eienstien till date. How you use it makes the difference.

Which does not mean Einstein was right in everything, Hawking can be better.

India is a new comer to designing tanks but we found a very simple and effective solution to one of the most complicated problems to tank guns which actually determine the type of battle that you can fight and at what ranges.

Ok, so now without slogans, what, how, data, data data! Oh wait, you have no data, only slogans good for poorly educated.

The rifled gun with use of rubber coated round has made Arjun far superior to any other tank irrespective of what type of ammo is used and at what range. It will simply outgun every tank.

In which? How rubber coating a round help in penetration? As I understand you think that rubber is some sort of special material that is densier or harder than steel, WHA or DUA? How actually placing a material that do not improve penetration by anyway, can help by adding unnececary weight?

I had given you a hint when I told you that new gun of Arjun has better life than T-90 due to various additions. What Arjun has achieved with this use of rubber is that it now has two different kind of guns in one single tank. It is like the multibarrel assault rifles which the armies all over the world are trying to induct.

OMFG, it is like listening bollocks said by some muslim clericks!

FYI, This rubber coating is not applicable to T-90 rounds as that has smoothbore. So Arjun will outdo any tank in classic tank battles and also urban warfare.

How?

Lastly we Indians taught russians the need of crew protection, they never had it as a requirement ever.

Oh seriously, as far as I remember in 1970's there was no Arjun program, when Russians were designing this:

Andrei-bt - Объект 450

You see, isolated crew compartment from ammunition compartment.

But you probably never knew about Object 450, which is normal for people who don't know anything about tanks history, and things that rubber is some magical material which "outguns" something else.

@Damian I think you are wrong at assuming that it will take a long long time just because you don't have previous experience. I agree to some extent, it takes time if you don't collaborate.As some technology is clearly a state secret.Example--crystal blades metallurgy. Look at China. What previous experience did it have to make stealth fighters.It is producing stealth aircraft's like toys.

And how many Stealth fighters China have inducted in to the Air Forces? Besides some prototypes or technology demonstrators presented for propaganda purposes?

It is obvious that you have absolutely no idea about research and development cycle, and a way from a concept, through technology demonstrator and prototype to the final product is allways long, painfull and not allways end with success.

 

[pmaitra]

@Damian, I have debated and demonstrated many times over, smoothbore is always less accurate than rifle. When fins are added, it loses range. Don't keep repeating the false claims.

 

[tharikiran]

@Damian Arjun tank is being developed for the last 30 years. Isn't that a decent development life cycle in your opinion. Isn't it a decent enough number of years to learn.
Decent enough time to know where we are lacking, what technology we need, what gaps we have and how to close it.Some may not be closed simply because we don't have the know how or the Chinese smartness when it comes to propaganda. Or else we would have been flying some stealth planes by now as per your calculations.

 

[Damian]

@Damian, I have debated and demonstrated many times over, smoothbore is always less accurate than rifle. When fins are added, it loses range. Don't keep repeating the false claims.

So why Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 were defeated by tanks armed with smoothbore guns.

Challenger 2 have one of the most modern fire control systems, and L30A1 is the most modern and advanced rifled gun designed for a tank. How it is possible, is it magic?!

Arjun tank is being developed for the last 30 years. Isn't that a decent development life cycle in your opinion. Isn't it a decent enough number of years to learn.

It is shamefully too long and shows that there are huge problems. Avarage development cycle for the Leopard 2 or M1 was something around 5 years.

Decent enough time to know where we are lacking, what technology we need, what gaps we have and how to close it.

IMHO you should or ask other to provide their own solutions as a licence and just put it in to a vehicle designed in India, it would reduce development time and costs, would give experience etc.

In Poland among the people close to military, I'am probably one of thouse who are most talking about nececity to do just the sam to develop our own MBT.

Some may not be closed simply because we don't have the know how or the Chinese smartness when it comes to propaganda.

There are many reasons. Sometimes ambitions may also bring to the dead end.

Or else we would have been flying some stealth planes by now as per your calculations.

Stealth is problematic thing. IMHO Chinese are not on the same level as USA is, they might try, but there is just gap that can't be jump over only because someones desire to do so.

 

[Decklander]

@Damian,
If a tank can shoot a much better round against which you have no defence or needs no illumination or designation at that range, which one is better?
You have limited storage in a tank for rounds and missiles, once you run out of missiles, will you wait for an enemy to come closer to you so that you can accurately target him, he may still have missiles with him? So Arjun bcoz of its better accuracy has bigger advantage.

Lower grnd pressure allows you the use of softer grnd and ability to manouever in that without getting bogged down and becoming a sitting duck. T-90 losses out there also due to its higher grnd pressure.

Hawkins theories regarding Black holes have been completely demolished by the work of an Indian Called Ramanujam way back in 1920s. So much so that Hawkins had to accept that he was wrong.

When the rubber coated round is fired, the burning of rubber coating actually increases the pressure of the gun resulting in much higher velocity.
That Israeli guy qouted in last post has let out many secrets of Arjun and I wud like to knw which forum this guy is on to pass on to relevant authorities to block this spillage of info on a blog site. he is speaking far too much of truth.

Lastly I had also asked you as to how lack of network centric warfare effect a battle between Arjun & T-90? Pls reply. Each Arjun Tank is a command center on its own while a T-90 cant even talk to another T-90 next to it or designate a target for it. T-90 has lower ht compared to Arjun, so it can hide but Arjun due to its ht can target and see far off compared to T-90. The longer engagement range of Arjun allows it to use its taller stance more effectively than a T-90 as in Tank battles you must destroy enemy and not hide.
The earlier posts have revealed far too much abt the real capabilities of Arjun which were not known to anybody outside IA & DRDO. This blogger must be stopped. He is even letting out secrets which only very few in the whole establishment know. IA did its best to kill this tank in favour of T-90 but now they have even agreed to forget FMBT in favour of Arjun MK2. That shud tell you what all Arjun must have done for this change of heart.

 

[tharikiran]

@Damian see, there lies the problem. If Arjun had been developed in 5 or ten years you would have said it's BS. With no prior experience, it cannot be done.
We/ I know that 30 years is too long to develop a tank and I agree with you - is shamefully a long time.Reasons being what you have said, no prior experience in developing a tank. Starting from scratch. Observing other tanks.You observe the best tanks and learn from them.That's exactly what the CVRDE did.
It took its time but it in the process learnt what are the best technologies.As as you rightfully said, tank technology is not easily available.Armour protection technology in particular.India did buy parts and placed it in Arjun wherever it could and because of it a significant portion of it is built on imported products/parts.This is however being reduced.I think it has finally turned out into a matured product which the Indian army is willing to invest in by having next versions of it instead of having a Future Main battle Tank.