Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

can you stop saying "so-called" storage boxes? please? it's extremely annoying, and it's blindingly obvious that they are storage boxes. they have latches, and they have hinges, and they sometimes have padlocks:

storage boxes are 25-28cm wide.


nothing. except mobility is armour by itself. without extra armour, the Arjun has a power to weight ratio of 24hp/ton. which is almost as good as uparmoured leopard 2A6, and better than T-90A (21hp/ton) however, at 9 tons heavier, that drops down to 21hp/ton.
Al khalid has a power to weight ratio of 25hp/ton, and has the gearbox from leclerc, so it is capable of high reverse speeds and pivot turn.

storage boxes start after the crew hatch in arjun and in the tank ex model you used in the first drawing they start before the crew hatch.
And composite armor occupies more space and gives better protection with lesser weight compared to equivalent thickness of RHA which occupies lesser space but imposes more weight.

People are confusing short tons with metric tons , so no massive weight increase like 9 tons is going to be there.And the ones parading in the name of mk-2 are mk-1 testbeds with mk-2 improvements.

And the redesigned arjun mk-2 is going to weigh around 55 to 58 tons with a completely redesigned turret as per DRDO chief V.K.Saraswath's statement so it will retain it's mobility advantage while having the same power to weight ratio.

 

[ersakthivel]

it's simple, use your eyes, look and compare, and construct an image of the turret in your head.
but i'd rather be looking at the blue lines, those are the ones that matter.
and if you still can't see it, let me spell it out for you:

Instead of using useless theories like this you can use the picture of arjun and leo I posted and start with the distance between crew holes and the distance from crew hole edge to turret sides and crew hatch as a much better datum .Because from the looks of it the arjun and leo seems to have the same length of space between turret sides and crew hatch as the leo.

storage boxes start after the crew hatch in arjun so you can add them in the turret pictures above.If this is factored in arjun has same protection levels till crew hatch as leo.Until the end of red line through out the sides of crew compartment there are side armor modules in the arjun production models as can be seen from the picture below.It should be factored in any drawing to denote the side armor thickness

And afer crew hatch we don't know whether the armor goes straight on or has some extra thickness as we can't see it ourselves.
You can use the picture below for fixing the inner limits of the armor wall

 

[ersakthivel]

In the above picture the hole before the crew hatch (marked with red arrow )is placed farther to the left of crew hatch than it's actual position

If you see the photo below this hole seems to be contained within the crew hatch edges if we consider the red line drawn on it.

But in production arjun models there is an armored block besides the hole.Only in the discarded tank ex model there is a side storage box beside the hole marked with arrow.

Until the end of red line through out the sides of crew compartment there are side armor modules in the arjun production models as can be seen from the picture below.It should be factored in any drawing to denote the side armor thickness.

The pad locks and ammo panels all come on the turret side wall besides the ammo storage and after the crew compartment

So there is no problem here.

 

[ersakthivel]

did some more curmudgeoning around. i took the front turret outer armour plate on the Arjun, and the leopard 2A4 and compared them, making them both about 50mm thick. volume of the Arjun plate came to about 59200 ccm, and leopard front turret to about 45500ccm.
multiplying with iron density, that came to 465kg for the Arjun, and 356kg for the leopard.
note, that this is with turret width of 2.8m for arjun. if the turret is 3.2m wide, the front armour will be even heavier. you want your turret to be as narrow as possible ,while still making it comfortable for your crew, that way you'll reduce the volume of the front turret armour, which makes it possible to increase side turret armour, and maintain the same weight.
also, Arjun turret is about 20cm longer than leopard 2A4 turret. this might not seem like much at all, but lets assume side turret is 90mm thick, and roof is 20mm thick and made of iron. those 20cm will account for a weight increase of 0.3 tons compared to the leo 2A4.
can compare weight of Arjun and leopard turrets.
Arjun is about 18 tonnes, leopard 2A4 is about 16 tonnes.

Once again a bit off the mark.The leo is narrower and taller.
Arjun is shorter and wider.You must factor it before going in for some calculation.

Your calculations will be very inaccurate if you simply add the weight for the extra 20 cm width while conveniently omitting to ignore the shorter height of arjun turret.

That's why experienced guys wont jump off to conclusions without getting full info on details.Because one can end up looking very awkward if found out.

Consistently believing the tank designers have made mistakes that are even against common sense is a self deluding enterprise.

 

[pmaitra]

I think this should put all this debate to rest. That picture of the turret was taken in a factory, people. It is not a finished product.

 

[ersakthivel]

I think this should put all this debate to rest. That picture of the turret was taken in a factory, people. It is not a finished product.

Pretty much accurate.The shaded greeen is not a storage box in arjun production models.It looks like an armor block with no hatches handles, locks and indentations typical of sheet metal surface.

At the end of shaded green portion the crew compartment ends and we cannot see what kind of armor arrangement is there or not .
After this green shaded block turret ammo compartment begins.

But there is some distance between the turret ammo storage's border and inner side wall of turret in the inside crew compartment picture,occupied by a block.I will try to post a picture that is already in this thread for that.

there are host of other issues to a tank besides this.There is no point in being stuck here for the past 30 pages.

So people should stop peddling faulty drawings like the one below all over the net,parroting their own discovery like
while arjun followed the LEO model in turret design philosophy ,the people at CVRDE were so naive
and
followed russian model at armor placement and ended up with having a worst of the both world solution of having a tank with lesser protoection in the crucial frontal 60 degree arc all the while having a heavier weight tank.

 

[ersakthivel]

We can notice the enormous amount of space between the crew hatch holes and the extreme side wall of arjun in this picture.We can have any type of armor placements to take it to the level of ABARMS in the future.

this picture shows that the ammo storage arrangement on the turret.Ammo storage begins at the end of the crew compartment ,near the end of green shaded ractangle drawn by PMAITRA.

Notice the right side edge of ammo storage is not abutting the turret side walls as mistakenly shown in the above drawing by DAMIAN.

There is a huge gap between the right side edge of ammo storage and inner crew compartment side wall,We don't know whether there are any armor protection between the ammo storage and side turret wall in this space.

So we have to clarify this point before saying the ammo storage is very vulnerable from hits on the side.

 

[Dejawolf]

factory photo of leopard 2A4:

 

[Dejawolf]

In the above picture the hole before the crew hatch (marked with red arrow )is placed farther to the left of crew hatch than it's actual position

If you see the photo below this hole seems to be contained within the crew hatch edges if we consider the red line drawn on it.

But in production arjun models there is an armored block besides the hole.Only in the discarded tank ex model there is a side storage box beside the hole marked with arrow.

tank-ex? it says ARJUN on the side of the turret. you talk a lot, but obviously don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Dejawolf]

Instead of using useless theories like this you can use the picture of arjun and leo I posted and start with the distance between crew holes and the distance from crew hole edge to turret sides and crew hatch as a much better datum .Because from the looks of it the arjun and leo seems to have the same length of space between turret sides and crew hatch as the leo.

no. hatches on leopard are 190cm from ledge to ledge, hatches on arjun are 200cm apart from ledge to ledge.

storage boxes start after the crew hatch in arjun so you can add them in the turret pictures above.If this is factored in arjun has same protection levels till crew hatch as leo.Until the end of red line through out the sides of crew compartment there are side armor modules in the arjun production models as can be seen from the picture below.It should be factored in any drawing to denote the side armor thickness

No. use your eyes.

And afer crew hatch we don't know whether the armor goes straight on or has some extra thickness as we can't see it ourselves.
You can use the picture below for fixing the inner limits of the armor wall

lies. just look at any of the hundreds of pictures already posted in this thread. i'm getting tired of your constant inability to make sense.

 

[Dejawolf]

Once again a bit off the mark.The leo is narrower and taller.
Arjun is shorter and wider.You must factor it before going in for some calculation.

Your calculations will be very inaccurate if you simply add the weight for the extra 20 cm width while conveniently omitting to ignore the shorter height of arjun turret.

i did. i created a 3d model of the front surfaces of the arjun and leopard, and then let 3ds max calculate the volume automatically.
Arjun's HULL is shorter than leopard, turret is about the same height as leopard. also front turret glacis is shorter on arjun than on the leopard, making the front turret faces TALLER than on the leopard.

one can end up looking very awkward if found out.

Yeah, i bet you do feel pretty awkward.

 

[ersakthivel]

tank-ex? it says ARJUN on the side of the turret. you talk a lot, but obviously don't know what you're talking about.

there are many many many prototype versions of arjun in many colors.But the ones in operational service are in the picture posted bu KUNAL in my post.You can see the picture below

What is an operational tank in a regiment the one below in camo paintings or the prototype you posted above that is paraded in old defense expos?

Why are you not trying to see this point?

 

[ersakthivel]

tank-ex? it says ARJUN on the side of the turret. you talk a lot, but obviously don't know what you're talking about.

In olden days the early prototype turret of arjun was mounted on T-72 chasis and paraded as tan-ex.So there is no rocket science in finding out few prototype arjuns with those older less armored turrets.The painting's color alone denotes it doesn't it?

 

[ersakthivel]

i did. i created a 3d model of the front surfaces of the arjun and leopard, and then let 3ds max calculate the volume automatically.
Arjun's HULL is shorter than leopard, turret is about the same height as leopard. also front turret glacis is shorter on arjun than on the leopard, making the front turret faces TALLER than on the leopard.


Yeah, i bet you do feel pretty awkward.

So what is arjun turret height and LEO turret height according your 3ds max calculation?

it is a real waste of time to drag this on and on as there are so many other points to discuss.By clinging to entrenched positions we are obstructing other members from conducting any useful debate here.

So I will stop here on this subject and let the MODs and other members make their own judgement.

 

[sasi]

Defence Expo 2012. Arjun and T-90, pictures from insides. | Mornie alantië, memento mori

 

[Dejawolf]

there are many many many prototype versions of arjun in many colors.But the ones in operational service are in the picture posted bu KUNAL in my post.You can see the picture below

What is an operational tank in a regiment the one below in camo paintings or the prototype you posted above that is paraded in old defense expos?

Why are you not trying to see this point?

looks the same to me. stowage boxes on the side.

 

[kshkumsin]

looks the same to me. stowage boxes on the side.

well arjun is an excellent design what do u say

 

[ersakthivel]

well arjun is an excellent design what do u say

It has the potential to mature into a FMBT.

 

[ersakthivel]

looks the same to me. stowage boxes on the side.

No one says there are storage boxes there.
The tanks above are protection models.
The storage boxes are not situated besides the crew compartment as the prototypes in your posts
But they are all well behind the crew compartment.Like the one in the picture below.
Those storage boxes start after the green shaded area in the photo below.
More than half of arjun's side turret has armor protection if you take into account green shaded area.

Not where you put on your drawing to arrive at side turret wall thickness.
Storage boxes start at the sides of the ammo storage given in the picture behind the crew hatch.

This picture shows that the ammo storage arrangement on the turret.
Ammo storage begins at the end of the crew compartment ,near the end of green shaded ractangle drawn by PMAITRA.

Notice the right side edge of ammo storage is not abutting the turret side walls as mistakenly shown in drawing by DAMIAN.

There is a huge gap between the right side edge of ammo storage and inner crew compartment side wall,We don't know whether there are any armor protection between the ammo storage and side turret wall in this space.

So we have to clarify this point before saying the ammo storage is very vulnerable from hits on the side.
you can also see the overall lower profile of arjun with respect to leo.So while you take into account the ecxess width for higher weight calculations you cannot deny the impact of this overall lower height in your weight calculations.

 

[ersakthivel]

[/IMG]
Well you can see where are the hatches for storage boxes , and where are the armor panels in the picture above.
It has only two storage boxes.This has no weakness in to 60 degree frontal arc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The one below is the older prototype of arjun you are referring to posted in the military recognition website which has similar turret arrangements to the discarded tank-EX.This picture is from defexpo-2004.
This older prototype has three storage boxes.
This has weakness in 60 degree frontal arc.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/imag...un_main_battle_tank_India_Indian_army_002.jpg

So finally we can lay this matter to rest I suppose.