Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[bharadwaj]

They only cleared development of Mk2 the same month they ordered the extra 124 tanks. It won't be ready by the time the new tanks start to come which will be soon.

But DRDO said that if IA were to order more Arjun's i.e,a follow on order of another 124 then those will be the mark-2 variant!!The production rate is approximately 50 Arjun's/year so the further 124 tanks will be the mark-2 variant.I have read this in an article in which the DRDO boss(?) is interviewed he said the same!this article was before the comparative trials!!!!
http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=55&page=43 Read the post by rpraveenkum on page 43,post number 641

 

[JBH22]

There's a big problem imo no matter how rich a country is it cannot afford having 3 types of tanks we are in for hell of huge operating costs (T-55,T-72,T-90 and Arjun). I mean are we going to repeat Soviet mistakes of having huge tank armies like the T-72 and T-80 model.

 

[gogbot]

There's a big problem imo no matter how rich a country is it cannot afford having 3 types of tanks we are in for hell of huge operating costs (T-55,T-72,T-90 and Arjun). I mean are we going to repeat Soviet mistakes of having huge tank armies like the T-72 and T-80 model.

T-55 and T-72 will be removed over the next 15 years.
FMBT will replace all other tanks over 15 after that.

Also Arjun is only deployed in one theater and only defensively , so logistics is eased somewhat.
Same way IAF deploying its entire Mig-29 fleet in one airbase.

 

[JBH22]

T-55 and T-72 will be removed over the next 15 years.
FMBT will replace all other tanks over 15 after that.

Also Arjun is only deployed in one theater and only defensively , so logistics is eased somewhat.
Same way IAF deploying its entire Mig-29 fleet in one airbase.

T-72 are being upgraded,T-90 is being inducted same for Arjun. T-55 AFAIk are in storage

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-72 are being upgraded,T-90 is being inducted same for Arjun. T-55 AFAIk are in storage

T-72 updated version will be operational till FMBT is ready, T-90S will remain too and will be operational with FMBT in future..
T-90S will also receive up-gradation through out his life, Arjun MK-1 is operational and serve as a front-line tank with additional 124..

T-55 is operational over mountain terrains like J&K and NE, until new generation of light tanks replace it..

 

[black eagle]

T-72 updated version will be operational till FMBT is ready, T-90S will remain too and will be operational with FMBT in future..
T-90S will also receive up-gradation through out his life, Arjun MK-1 is operational and serve as a front-line tank with additional 124..

T-55 is operational over mountain terrains like J&K and NE, until new generation of light tanks replace it..

Is the army trying to get into a logistical nightmare type situation?? So many types of tanks for one role is not really a smart policy...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Is the army trying to get into a logistical nightmare type situation?? So many types of tanks for one role is not really a smart policy...

Well i disliked on one thing is keeping remaining T-72M1s and further upgrading them..

They are suppose to be replaced by further order of T-90S, And in presently its not happening.. ( Is T-72UPGRADES ARE SUPPOSE TO BE FOR ANOTHER 10 YEARS ? )

As for Arjun its number are 248, More no are unlikely to happen as FMBT is now on drawing board..

 

[p2prada]

Well i disliked on one thing is keeping remaining T-72M1s and further upgrading them..

They are suppose to be replaced by further order of T-90S, And in presently its not happening.. ( Is T-72UPGRADES ARE SUPPOSE TO BE FOR ANOTHER 10 YEARS ? )

As for Arjun its number are 248, More no are unlikely to happen as FMBT is now on drawing board..

The T-72s and T-90s have a lot of common parts including ammunition. The T-72 upgrades will increase that commonality a bit more. The difference between T-72 and T-90 isn't like T-72 and T-80.

Many of the T-72s will be replaced by 2025 with the FMBT.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The T-72s and T-90s have a lot of common parts including ammunition. The T-72 upgrades will increase that commonality a bit more. The difference between T-72 and T-90 isn't like T-72 and T-80.

Many of the T-72s will be replaced by 2025 with the FMBT.

Not so Logistically but technologically is, T-72 ammo is different from T-90S, not the rods but type of propellent..

Yes, FMBT is the future..

 

[p2prada]

Not so Logistically but technologically is, T-72 ammo is different from T-90S, not the rods but type of propellent..

Yes, FMBT is the future..

I was talking in the logistical sense in response to Eagle.

FMBT: I am speculating a base 46 tons on the tank with 2 tons of ERA or NERA as additional armour.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

FMBT: I am speculating a base 46 tons on the tank with 2 tons of ERA or NERA as additional Armour.

46ton as the weight with only RHA steel is not good for tank itself only good if turret is unmanned..

50 ton with pure RHA and extra 4 ton of NERA & ERA..

 

[p2prada]

46ton as the weight with only RHA steel is not good for tank itself only good if turret is unmanned..

50 ton with pure RHA and extra 4 ton of NERA & ERA..

RHA is no longer in use as the main armour. It was stopped in the 70s. It was superseded by the lighter but more effective composite armour and the Army now wants a new "Hybrid" armour.

Hybrid armour is an unknown quantity. I am not talking about ERA hybrid armour though. I am talking about the main armour being hybrid instead of steel composite.

Edit: If you take it as a quantity, RHAe, then what a 900mm RHA would stop, now a 200mm Steel Composite would stop. Perhaps what a 900mm Steel Composite would stop, a 200mm Hybrid would stop. So, the effective RHAe of Hybid would be 1800mm of pure protective force.
I am speculating on the Hybrid figures of course.

Edit 2: You are not taking into account a lot of advances that can be made in the new FMBT. The gun and turret can be reduced by atleast half of what's on the T-90. The 15 tons can be reduced to 8 tons with full automation and redesigning the breech and recoil assembly.

Take a look at the XM360 as an example. The M-246 weighs 3.5 tons and is bulky with a max range of 4000metres. The XM360 weighs only 2.5 tons by connecting it with an autoloader and performs better than the M256. I don't know the muzzle velocity but it's effective range is 12km and 8km on the move without much difference between M256 and XM360 target velocities. All that with half the recoil energy.

Then we haven't even talked about reduced armour weight by using new techniques in manufacturing including a new hybrid armour or an advanced composite armour. Also replacing all the wires with optics systems.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

RHA is no longer in use as the main armour. It was stopped in the 70s. It was superseded by the lighter but more effective composite armour and the Army now wants a new "Hybrid" armour.

Hybrid armour is an unknown quantity. I am not talking about ERA hybrid armour though. I am talking about the main armour being hybrid instead of steel composite.

I am speculating on the Hybrid figures of course.

Edit 2: You are not taking into account a lot of advances that can be made in the new FMBT. The gun and turret can be reduced by atleast half of what's on the T-90. The 15 tons can be reduced to 8 tons with full automation and redesigning the breech and recoil assembly.

Take a look at the XM360 as an example. The M-246 weighs 3.5 tons and is bulky with a max range of 4000metres. The XM360 weighs only 2.5 tons by connecting it with an autoloader and performs better than the M256. I don't know the muzzle velocity but it's effective range is 12km and 8km on the move without much difference between M256 and XM360 target velocities. All that with half the recoil energy.

Then we haven't even talked about reduced armour weight by using new techniques in manufacturing including a new hybrid armour or an advanced composite armour. Also replacing all the wires with optics systems.

Composite Armour, Army made the right decision and DRDO is ready with one..
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20101205/main3.htm

Hybrid Armour is nothing but of composite with laminated layers of NERA and under Armour ERA..

80s kanchan Armour:
500-570mm RHAe vs. KE, 650-830mm RHAe vs. HEAT,

Hybrid Armour:
900-1200 RHAe vs KE, 1200-1500 RHAe vs. HEAT

^^Of same amount as previous Kanchan..


T-90S welded turret weight less than 10 tons coz their is no APU also no turret basket with ammunition also no addition blowup panels, Arjun turret weight 20 tons, If FMBT turret is a manned i can assume the weight of turret is around 12 tons..

I wont mind to see FMBT with licensed Ruag 120MM cannon, Its light and operational with different countries, It can sustain high chamber pressure and capable of using all kind of Nato rounds..

They wont speak anything, why would they do that?
Wait for 2012 defexpo to see first model of FMBT..

 

[p2prada]

80s kanchan Armour:
500-570mm RHAe vs. KE, 650-830mm RHAe vs. HEAT,

Hybrid Armour:
900-1200 RHAe vs KE, 1200-1500 RHAe vs. HEAT

^^Of same amount as previous Kanchan..

That's pretty neat. Wonder if there is weight reduction?

T-90S welded turret weight less than 10 tons coz their is no APU also no turret basket with ammunition also no addition blowup panels, Arjun turret weight 20 tons, If FMBT turret is a manned i can assume the weight of turret is around 12 tons..

I don't think new tank development will keep crew on top. More sensors and crew placing in the hull would be a better bet, IMHO.

I wont mind to see FMBT with licensed Ruag 120MM cannon, Its light and operational with different countries, It can sustain high chamber pressure and capable of using all kind of Nato rounds..

I would prefer an indigenous gun. We have plans with the Polish Obrum, so we may see something there.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That's pretty neat. Wonder if there is weight reduction?

Amount is same, but weight is not....

I don't think new tank development will keep crew on top. More sensors and crew placing in the hull would be a better bet, IMHO.

Yes, that is a better Idea, But Unmanned technology in India is not matured enough..
Btw, U should give a look at Abrams MK3, for some reason Unmanned turret is rejected..

I would prefer an indigenous gun. We have plans with the Polish Obrum, so we may see something there.

Sound better, But Obrum is not producing gun, guns are from slovaks..
It will take time to get Tot for Ruag as we have Tot of 52cal gun from Slovaks..

 

[p2prada]

Amount is same, but weight is not....

Is it heavier or lighter?

Yes, that is a better Idea, But Unmanned technology in India is not matured enough..
Btw, U should give a look at Abrams MK3, for some reason Unmanned turret is rejected..

They want a crew of 4. They cannot fill up the hull with 4 people and hence no unmanned turret. If they plan on using XM-360 then they will have an autoloader.

They need a new tank development in case they want an unmanned turret.

Sound better, But Obrum is not producing gun, guns are from slovaks..
It will take time to get Tot for Ruag as we have Tot of 52cal gun from Slovaks..

Isn't Ruag Swiss? And which gun ToT do we already have?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Is it heavier or lighter?

Indeed, lighter..

They want a crew of 4. They cannot fill up the hull with 4 people and hence no unmanned turret. If they plan on using XM-360 then they will have an autoloader.

Who said because of Crew of 4?, problem with TTB was, GDLS wanted to incorporate in to tank design some solutions used on warships, and this was not cheap and probably time consuming, while the CATTB was easier to go, Btw now a new prototype is developed and previous are dropped, the new turret represent L55 the origianl plan was to mount XM291 was dropped due to shortage of funding and same to happed with XM-360..

They already have auto-loaders, and guess what, they actually designed auto-loader for currently used turret, only that US.Army never installed that autoloader in tanks, but the know-how is there, and that new autoloader had 34 ready to load rounds (more than any other currently used autoloading system)





The new prototype is called thumper, This also features the Benet Laboratory designed automatic loader, modified M1A1 fire-control electronics, Rockwell Multisensor Target Acquisition Sensor, standard M1 gunner's primary sight and a new fire-control computer. In this vehicle the gunner is on the right, as in the M1, while the tank commander is on the left in the space normally occupied by the loader."

Isn't Ruag Swiss? And which gun ToT do we already have?

I think i have given link and translation on the first page of Indo/polish light tank..

 

[p2prada]

Who said because of Crew of 4?, problem with TTB was, GDLS wanted to incorporate in to tank design some solutions used on warships, and this was not cheap and probably time consuming, while the CATTB was easier to go, Btw now a new prototype is developed and previous are dropped, the new turret represent L55 the origianl plan was to mount XM291 was dropped due to shortage of funding and same to happed with XM-360..

They already have auto-loaders, and guess what, they actually designed auto-loader for currently used turret, only that US.Army never installed that autoloader in tanks, but the know-how is there, and that new autoloader had 34 ready to load rounds (more than any other currently used autoloading system)

View attachment 2850

View attachment 2851

The new prototype is called thumper, This also features the Benet Laboratory designed automatic loader, modified M1A1 fire-control electronics, Rockwell Multisensor Target Acquisition Sensor, standard M1 gunner's primary sight and a new fire-control computer. In this vehicle the gunner is on the right, as in the M1, while the tank commander is on the left in the space normally occupied by the loader."

It is not the question of autoloaders or the 3 man TD. The last I heard the Army wants to continue using the fourth man in M1A3. Also 3 of the crew members in M1A2 are in the turret rather than the hull where the driver is located. Replacing the main turret with an unmanned turret would mean changing the interiors of the hull and turret, including the armoured ammo compartment. If they think only getting the XM-291 or XM-360 is too expensive, then replacing the turret with an unmanned turret would be beyond their budget.

Even if they want a 3 man crew with unmanned turret, then the gunner and commander will still have to be relocated. If they don't plan on redesigning the hull then obviously there would be a manned turret.

They are just modifying or changing some parts and adding a new gun, perhaps with an autoloader. It is not a future tank development, rather they just want to continue using the ole reliable.

It would be interesting to see what the Russians and Japanese come out with their own FMBT requirements. Maybe the Chinese and South Koreans could add to it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Is there any artistic impression or any pic of the prototype of Arjun Mk-2, available till now?