Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Damian]

Than how come his, words are around only elevation and depression ? , We have not solved the mantled issue here ..

He was not obligated to say you a truth. His answer might have been based around "I need to say everything, but realistic, so the guy just leave me around", or he didn't understood the question, believe me this is how it works, I know guys which anticipated in all types of military exhibitions and many times, people who you think, should have the best knowledge, have no knowledge at all, or only pretend to know something, this is a nature of military exhibitions.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Ok, Sure that must be ..

He was not obligated to say you a truth. His answer might have been based around "I need to say everything, but realistic, so the guy just leave me around", or he didn't understood the question, believe me this is how it works.

 

[Damian]

However to sort of problem of gun elevation, it is more an issue with turret internal space, you just need enough space for gun recoil around the turret roof and near the bottom of turret crew compartment basket.

 

[Dejawolf]

He was not obligated to say you a truth. His answer might have been based around "I need to say everything, but realistic, so the guy just leave me around", or he didn't understood the question, believe me this is how it works, I know guys which anticipated in all types of military exhibitions and many times, people who you think, should have the best knowledge, have no knowledge at all, or only pretend to know something, this is a nature of military exhibitions.

he could also have misunderstood the question. the arjun mantlet is taller than the T-72 mantlet, since the turret is taller to accomodate the increased depression angle.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Size of mantled have nothing to do with gun elevation angles.

Look at M1 series, they have small mantled and still are capable to depress gun up to -9 od -10 degrees. Look at Challenger 1, it have no mantlet at all and is also capable to depress gun to similiar angles.



You see. But the plates there can't be very thick, because in such situation you have unnececary weight increase. Harder plates can give you increase in protection why they are still relatively thin.

AFAIK THS steel plates have TE factor of 1.3, which means if THS plate is 50mm thick it is equivalent to 65mm RHA plate.

In Arjuns case larger mantel has allowed them to add more armour behind it. Which is another way of solving the week zone issue. Offcourse you wont agree but thats not left to you.

 

[Damian]

In Arjuns case larger mantel has allowed them to add more armour behind it. Which is another way of solving the week zone issue. Offcourse you wont agree but thats not left to you.

There is no more armor behind gun mantlet, avaiable photographs do not show such design solution, and such design solution should not be encouraged because it's adds weight to the gun mantlet and creates problems with gun stabilization.

If gun mantled would be overarmored, it would be overweighted and accuracy of vehicle, especially during movement, would suffer.

 

[ersakthivel]

There is no more armor behind gun mantlet, avaiable photographs do not show such design solution, and such design solution should not be encouraged because it's adds weight to the gun mantlet and creates problems with gun stabilization.

If gun mantled would be overarmored, it would be overweighted and accuracy of vehicle, especially during movement, would suffer.

Gun stabilization in 60 ton tank is way different than the gun stabilization in 40 ton tanks.And no details are available on the latest gun stabilization techs developed for Arjun which makes it the best tank in IA in accuracy, range and on the move firing accuracy as far back as 2009 MOD report to a parliamentary standing committee after through trials.

Assembly line Photos posted here alone would indicate close to 500 mm LOS thickness (composite or not)on gun mantlet plate assembly on Turret by using the position of mantlet plate pivot on the turret .It has already been discussed once back in this thread

And no one knows which tech is used to stabilize the gun.

Coupled with much better firing accuracy on the move thanks to hydro pneumatic suspension proven in trails ,

along with rifled gun which fires longer range with better accuracy,

Arjun gun can hit the opponent's weak spot with more accuracy and at a higher range before getting a hit on it's weak spot .

 

[ersakthivel]

i would be happy to use your schematics. just send them over.

Once again. No one uses schemas for taking measurement. Only production drawing with dimensions and scale written on it are used to take measurement. certainly not the 1990s museum schemas..

It is as genuine as trying to measure dimensions on one of your dimensionless, scale less ,proportion less 3D models. No good is ever going to come out of that other than firefights leading to pages.

 

[Damian]

Let's put it straight because it seems you do not understand.

I do not talk with people that have obsession and are insane, this is why you are on my ignore list, I do not speak with you, do not reply to my posts.

Is this simple comunicate comprehendable to you?

 

[Dejawolf]

Assembly line Photos posted here alone would indicate close to 500 mm LOS thickness (composite or not)on gun mantlet plate assembly on Turret by using the position of mantlet plate pivot on the turret .It has already been discussed once back in this thread

assembly line pictures are dimensionless scale less and proportionless, and no good is ever going to come out of claiming otherwise., other than firefights leading to pages. you cannot possibly make any estimates of gun mantlet thickness based on some pictures.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@ersakthivel, Guns are stabilized with gyros, The whole system consist of >>

The Traverse system consists of

Traverse Gyro assembled in gyro Unit
Amplidyne
Electric Motor

The Elevation system consists of

Elevation Gyro assembled in Gyro Unit
Angle Limiter
Gun Setting Device
Feeder Unit
Actuating Cylinder

===============

In a tank's FCS (Fire Control System) there is a low power telescope so when you look at the target through the Gunner's sight this is what you are looking into. the sights are stabilized independent of the gun and the gun is moved hydraulically by the computer driven system according to inputs from the sight. Two gyroscopes one that resists movement right and left. The other resists up/down movement. The FSC also adds the thermal image and the retical (crosshairs)

During the movement of the Tank , if the gun under the influence of external disturbance is shifted from the earlier set value , then the power stabilization drives brings the gun to the initial position.

Any external disturbance acting on the Gun is sensed by the gyros and the error voltage is processed in control unit . The out put of control unit is fed to the electromagnet windings of the actuating cylinder, wherein a differential current flows. This is converted into a suitable movement of the gun through the Hydraulic drive system consisting of Feeder Unit and actuating cylinder.

===============

Though as you said there is little on Arjun ..

And no details are available on the latest gun stabilization techs developed for Arjun which makes it the best tank in IA in accuracy, range and on the move firing accuracy as far back as 2009 MOD report to a parliamentary standing committee after through trials.

Coupled with much better firing accuracy on the move thanks to hydro pneumatic suspension proven in trails ,Arjun gun can hit the opponent's weak spot with more accuracy and at a higher range before getting a hit on it's weak spot .

 

[Damian]

@ersakthivel, Guns are stabilized with gyros, The whole system consist of >>

The Traverse system consists of

Traverse Gyro assembled in gyro Unit
Amplidyne
Electric Motor

The Elevation system consists of

Elevation Gyro assembled in Gyro Unit
Angle Limiter
Gun Setting Device
Feeder Unit
Actuating Cylinder

===============

In a tank's FCS (Fire Control System) there is a low power telescope so when you look at the target through the Gunner's sight this is what you are looking into. the sights are stabilized independent of the gun and the gun is moved hydraulically by the computer driven system according to inputs from the sight. Two gyroscopes one that resists movement right and left. The other resists up/down movement. The FSC also adds the thermal image and the retical (crosshairs)

During the movement of the Tank , if the gun under the influence of external disturbance is shifted from the earlier set value , then the power stabilization drives brings the gun to the initial position.

Any external disturbance acting on the Gun is sensed by the gyros and the error voltage is processed in control unit . The out put of control unit is fed to the electromagnet windings of the actuating cylinder, wherein a differential current flows. This is converted into a suitable movement of the gun through the Hydraulic drive system consisting of Feeder Unit and actuating cylinder.

===============

Though as you said there is little on Arjun ..

You should know that even with top line stabilization and FCS, increased weight og gun, gun mount and gun mantled can create serious problems with stabilization precision and affect accuracy.

This is why the best solution is to minimize size of gun mantled and reduce weight as much as possible.

 

[Dejawolf]

@ersakthivel, Guns are stabilized with gyros, The whole system consist of >>

The Traverse system consists of

Traverse Gyro assembled in gyro Unit
Amplidyne
Electric Motor

The Elevation system consists of

Elevation Gyro assembled in Gyro Unit
Angle Limiter
Gun Setting Device
Feeder Unit
Actuating Cylinder

===============

In a tank's FCS (Fire Control System) there is a low power telescope so when you look at the target through the Gunner's sight this is what you are looking into. the sights are stabilized independent of the gun and the gun is moved hydraulically by the computer driven system according to inputs from the sight. Two gyroscopes one that resists movement right and left. The other resists up/down movement. The FSC also adds the thermal image and the retical (crosshairs)

During the movement of the Tank , if the gun under the influence of external disturbance is shifted from the earlier set value , then the power stabilization drives brings the gun to the initial position.

Any external disturbance acting on the Gun is sensed by the gyros and the error voltage is processed in control unit . The out put of control unit is fed to the electromagnet windings of the actuating cylinder, wherein a differential current flows. This is converted into a suitable movement of the gun through the Hydraulic drive system consisting of Feeder Unit and actuating cylinder.

===============

Though as you said there is little on Arjun ..

another thing that will seriously affect stabilization quality is having an imbalanced gun, which is probably the main reason that the gunshield hasn't been uparmoured on the mk.2.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indeed & That is why Arjun is design accordingly ..

And If there are plan to up-Armoured the mantal from outside, they will do the needed modification to rest of the sub systems also..

Though presently the mantal of Arjun is enough against most common threads..

You should know that even with top line stabilization and FCS, increased weight og gun, gun mount and gun mantled can create serious problems with stabilization precision and affect accuracy.

This is why the best solution is to minimize size of gun mantled and reduce weight as much as possible.

another thing that will seriously affect stabilization quality is having an imbalanced gun, which is probably the main reason that the gunshield hasn't been uparmoured on the mk.2.

 

[ersakthivel]

So anyone who is going to post an objective analysis to question the claims of these guys are going to be shouted down and mired in a fire fight.

These guys have no authentic source quotes to back any of their baseless claims, In the above post look at the comment,

"production drawings are are also scale less dimension less schema like drawings"--Any pro would laugh at such intellectual comment.

And even fantastic claims like all the weight of Arjun is put on the wrong places and not in armor.

it is time for the Mods to do something about this. Otherwise thread is going to be littered with assertion upon spewing bile on Arjun MBT

 

[ersakthivel]

Every one knows that gyros and hydraulics can stabilize a system with any weight if the parts are engineered according to the load they need to stabilize, massive telescopic lenses weighing tons are stabilized accurately to point at a precise constellation of the universe and take shots of distant stars.

So it is not impossible to engineer a gyro system to give accurate stabilization to a gun with few Kgs more bigger mantlet plate weight.

precise stabilization systems also evolve to support to bigger loads. SO there is no use in comparing their level of tech to the 70s vintage Soviet tank tech which was cramped for space and power requirements , and claiming a few more Kg extra mantlet plate will give serious problems in stabilization, since the arjun stabilization system is also the latest in tech.

Even with a bigger mantlet plate weighing substantially more Arjun gun FCS has proven it's accuracy , higher range , and on the move firing accuracy over all smaller mantlet plate guns. So I see no issues here. it will also have a higher ERA or NERA cover .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It matters, How gud and modern gyros are with respect to other sub systems as mention in last post..

Afaik, DRDO makes its own laser gyros, But i am not saying the same in Arjun as its not said anywhere..

Arjun accuracy is better than all other tanks, The capability boost more by the Suspension system of Arjun, Giving it better first shot hit capability on move than rest of the tanks in IA ..

since the arjun stabilization system is also the latest in tech.

 

[ersakthivel]

It matters, How gud and modern gyros are with respect to other sub systems as mention in last post..

Afaik, DRDO makes its own laser gyros, But i am not saying the same in Arjun as its not said anywhere..

Arjun accuracy is better than all other tanks, The capability boost more by the Suspension system of Arjun, Giving it better first shot hit capability on move than rest of the tanks in IA ..

A bit higher ERA or NERA cover will also raise the the protection level. '

So coupled with higher accuracy and range,

AFAIK , the chances of Arjun hitting the weakspot of the opponent tank will be

more or less the same

as that of the opponent's chances of hitting the bigger mantlet protected by ERA and NERA repeatedly to hit through the mantlet plate,

 

[Dejawolf]

Every one knows that gyros and hydraulics can stabilize a system with any weight if the parts are engineered according to the load they need to stabilize, massive telescopic lenses weighing tons are stabilized accurately to point at a precise constellation of the universe and take shots of distant stars.

So it is not impossible to engineer a gyro system to give accurate stabilization to a gun with few Kgs more bigger mantlet plate weight.

precise stabilization systems also evolve to support to bigger loads. SO there is no use in comparing their level of tech to the 70s vintage Soviet tank tech which was cramped for space and power requirements , and claiming a few more Kg extra mantlet plate will give serious problems in stabilization, since the arjun stabilization system is also the latest in tech.

Even with a bigger mantlet plate weighing substantially more Arjun gun FCS has proven it's accuracy , higher range , and on the move firing accuracy over all smaller mantlet plate guns. So I see no issues here. it will also have a higher ERA or NERA cover .

more propaganda. it doesn't matter how accurate your gyro is able to measure the gun angle. with a bigger mantlet you'll need to increase the size and power of the elevation motor and traverse motor, as well as the brakes of those systems. otherwise the heavier mantlet will cause the gun will not be able to stabilize as quickly. and any weight added to the front of the mantlet will have to be added on the back of the gun, to counter-balance it's movement.
best alternative is to make use of a system similar to that of the leopard 2A5, then no counterbalancing will have to be done, no elevation motors will have to be upgraded, etc.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I would say avoid cheap shots by using Cheap words..

more propaganda.