Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

methos

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there are reports that this turret redesign is done and it's weight is reduced by 4 tons according to statements by V.K.Saraswat. But there is nothing reliable on it.However it's FCS troubles are fixed and it is accurate it seems.
Redesigning the turret is a good idea, but wether the results are good or bad depends on the final design.


1.However this same ammunation storage and blow off panels are there in T-90 or not? please answer.
The T-90 does not have an isolated ammunition compartment and also does not have blow-out panels; although it is theoretical possible to use different autoloaders like that of the "Black Eagle" or the Ukranian autoloader used on the T-72-120 and T-84 Oplot, which are mounted at the turret rear and feature blow-out panels.
But the T-90 is not that bad in terms of ammunition storage, because all ammunition is stored in the hull floor. A German tanker once caluclated that with mid-1980s ammunition (in terms of accuarcy, firing from a standing tank at a standing tank) the probability to hit the ammunition directly is less than 20% from 1,500 - 2,000 m distance.
The performance of the T-72s during the Gulf War with exactly the same ammunition storage was very poor, but there might be other reasons for this (like exaggerated numbers of cases where the ammunition cooked off, lack of spall-liner, etc.).

2.What will be the prudent options for FMBT? should we go for an entirely new design within 50+ ton specs?
I don't think that a tank below 50 tonnes is a real option. In the end the requirement "max. 50 tonnes" would likely lead to another T-90-like tank. For reducing the weight you need to reduce the volume, which makes ammunition compartimensation impossible and also will lead to the adoption of an autoloader. If you want to have thicker side armour than the T-90, the only possibility would be to reduce the front armour.
If you ask me, the tank should weigh above 50 tonnes, but less than 65. However my view of the "perfect" modern MBT would require adopting advanced technology which often hasn't been fielded until know. One nice example are unmanned and low-profile turrets, which have been projected since the 1950s. Take a Arjun hull, put a Falcon II low profile turret on it and the resulting tank will weigh less than 50 tonnes. Further weight reduction can be achieved by using the EuroPowerpack, which reduced hull length by 1 to 1.5 meters - the resulting tank would not be perfect, but it would weigh as much as a T-90, while offering better performance than the Arjun (depending on turret front armour).


3.Will it be possible to give same level of protection of the western latest leopard and abrams and their advanced tech within the 50+ ton limit set by indian army?
No, that's not really possible. I don't know how effective the Kanchan armour is, but with Kontakt-5 or Relikt at the turret front an Arjun should have similar frontal protection. But the Arjun weighs too much.
The "top notch" Western tanks have increased side-protection (more than 2 tonnes weight), roof armour (more than 1 tonne weight), mine protection (~2 tonnes weight) compared to the basic Leopard 2A5/M1A2 SEP/Challenger 2 - these weigh already more than 60 tonnes.
A 40 - 50 tonnes tank like the T-90 can have similar frontal armour, but has less mine protection, less side armour and no ammunition compartimensation. Add ERA to the sides (depending on coverage and type of ERA 2 to 4 tonnes), then the side armour should be similar against shaped charges (HEAT, RPGs, ATGMs). But other problems cannot be solved on the T-90 with the given weight limit.


4.Since western countries haven't mastered it how come the indian army expect's CVRDE to deliver it?
The question is what they want to deliever. Do they really want thick frontal armour resistant to 120 - 125 mm APFSDS? Do they really want protection against large tandem charge ATGMs?
One nice example should be the Puma IFV - it weighs 42 tonnes with full armour (against RPGs and small ATGMs), so putting a tank gun in overhead mount or in an unmanned turret on it without exceeding 50 tonnes weight shouldn't be a problem. But the frontal sector is less armoured than a tank. Alternatively they could want a tank with less frontal armour than the Arjun/T-90/Leopard 2 - the Lince (a scaled down Leopard 2 tank made for Spain) has a combat weight of around 50 tonnes - but it had less armour than a modern Leopard 2 and far less side armour than the M1A2 TUSK, Challenger 1/2 TES and Leopard 2A7/PSO. The Western requirement leading to 65 - 75 tonnes tank is (and was) "frontal armour against modern ammunition, mine protection and side armour against RPGs/ATGMs" in some cases also increased roof armour. If the Indian army has different requirements then they could make a 50 tonnes tank - but this would probably look like a T-90 with Indian armour and Indian gun.
One other way how the Indian tank designers could achieve the goal is to gamble, i.e. saying "this is the current Pakistani ammunition, we only focus on this" - as the current ammunition used by Pakistan is on a performance level of ~1985, it could be possible to create a tank weighing somewhere around 50 tonnes protected against this ammunition. When Pakistan would upgrade their ammo or India would fight against China (which has pretty good ammo), then the new 50 tonnes tank would be obsolete.


5.Is army's expectation realistic?

or iterate arjun design as suggested by Israelis?
I don't think that it is a realistic goal. All tank design programmes I know ended up with a higher weight than originally expected, like the Leopard 1, Leopard 2, MBT-70, M1, Leclerc etc.
The Isreali suggestion however is also not optimal in my opinion. I am not a big fan of the current Arjun tanks and personally would prefer the T-90 over the Arjun Mk.1 at least, because the Arjun has quite a few design problems (too wide turret, too large gun mantlet, weakened zone in the side protection, not ideal hull armour layout, gunner's sight is misplaced etc.). Improving the Arjun is not a bad idea, but not like the Arjun Mk.2 - current photos of the prototypes didn't show any fixed flaws. They should improve the design per se, and not use the old design with new ERA and sights. I hope you are right about the turret redesign.


Some Corrections to methos above :

1. Regarding Armour Module, ArjunMK1 and T-90S use different Armour Concepts, When you measure the thickness of both its a useless effort as both works differently and structural wise not the same..
Different concepts? You know that for sure? We believe that Burlington ("Chobham") is also a type of reactive/semi-reactive armour, like the Russian armour used on T-72B/T-90. Yes, there are design differences, but the concept and the working mechanism should be similar. I didn't argue with thickness, but with volume.



2. Regarding Tot of Armour which was resolved but Kanchan was chosen coz it was cost effective and in the specs implemented for T-90S gives more or less same protection..
When it gives "more or less same protection" while being more or less as thick as the other armour, I don't see any reason for your point 1. I also did not mention that the T-90S uses the same armour as the Arjun.


3. Check this thread so does other blogs where my work is show on advance Panoramic Sight for Arjun MK2, Safe ammo storage is mentioned in MK2 should have noted before commenting so..
I was talking about the currently fielded Arjun tanks. What future brings you might be different from what currently is being tests. In Austria there was a report that new upgrades would be developed for the Leopard 2, which was the reason for some discussions in the internet. The result was that one tank was armoured gun shields for the turret MGs and one tank equipped with a anti-riot fence... noone expected this in the internet, but some deeper improvments. One other nice example is the Swiss upgrade for their Panzer 87, which was one of the most advanced at it's time - but it costed too much and most parts (like the improved turret front and side armour, the RWS and the anti-bomblet protection) weren't fielded. The main differences between normal Pz 87 and upgraded one are the commander's sight and the exhaust smoke/thermal signature reduction kit.


4. What kind of Advance round projected ? There many under-projected and already developed..
I was writing about the current situation. Saying "the Arjun is better because it has advanced rounds", while the current ammunition used is HESH and a "not-so-good"-APFSDS, is simply wrong. I didn't mention any advanced rounds per se, because there are currently none in the Indian arsenal.

5. You dont understand the knowledge of metallurgy to this extend that is why your comment is ****** ..
I do think that I know quite a view things about metallurgy. But what I wrote is that there seems to be a misunderstanging in the semantic of the word. "Metallurgy" means "composition of an alloy and treatment during manufacture", this has nothing to do directly with armour protection and weight. Secondarily the steel alloy used will influence armour protection, but the major protection is a result of what armour design is used.
 

sayareakd

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i think it is more like from Russia with love at present for many, i am sure those who are in love with Russia, would change side and will sing "from US with love" once M1A1 start coming. May be we should have MRCA type of competition for MBT purchase. Let all the manufacturers participate in the competition and let the best tank win for the Indian condition. BTW one competition for IFV is already on.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Different concepts? You know that for sure? We believe that Burlington ("Chobham") is also a type of reactive/semi-reactive armour, like the Russian armour used on T-72B/T-90. Yes, there are design differences, but the concept and the working mechanism should be similar. I didn't argue with thickness, but with volume.
You have doubts ? Russian modules are sandwich Armour ?

When it gives "more or less same protection" while being more or less as thick as the other armour, I don't see any reason for your point 1. I also did not mention that the T-90S uses the same armour as the Arjun.
You might check your post again, I wont be saying this if you dont..

I was talking about the currently fielded Arjun tanks.
In that case you are correct, My reply was about MK2..

I was writing about the current situation. Saying "the Arjun is better because it has advanced rounds", while the current ammunition used is HESH and a "not-so-good"-APFSDS, is simply wrong. I didn't mention any advanced rounds per se, because there are currently none in the Indian arsenal.
You are saying about MK1 again is that is the case, It fine..

Metallurgy" means "composition of an alloy and treatment during manufacture", this has nothing to do directly with armour protection and weight.
Its about RHA plates..
 

Kunal Biswas

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I also wanted to know, If a round is effective as 500mm of RHA penetration from 2000menters, What will be its penetration from 100meters ?
 

methos

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You have doubts ? Russian modules are sandwich Armour ?
The Russian armour is "sandwich armour". On the T-72B the armour consisted of a 815 mm thick cast steel turret with a 435 mm cavity, which was filled with sandwich plates made of steel, rubber and "hard metal" (steel or hard aluminium alloy according to the internet) and a high-hardness steel (HHS) plate. If a sandwich layer is hit, the rubber will bulge the "hard metal" layer and thus increase the contact area between projectile and armour. The T-72B from 1989 (T-72 obr.1989g), which has been wrongly described as "T-72BM" in many sources is said to have an improved version - some people believe with titanium instead of the hard metal/aluminium - and it has been claimed that the T-90, originally known as T-72BU and based on the T-72B from 1990 (T-72 obr.1990g), which itself is based on the T-72B from 1989, uses the same armour.
There are plenty of reasons to believe that Western composite armour (like Chobham aka Burlington) is also based on sandwich plates made of metals and elastic materials (i.e. steel/rubber/steel); this reasons include images from damaged vehicles, research papers, declassified documents and also normal literature. Zaloga for example described the T-72B armour as Soviet version of Chobham.

"Known" examples of Western composite armour show that the armour is more complex in the sense of more layers and more different types of layers. Still the main defeat mechanism seems to be similar. The T-90S and T-90A with welded turrets could easily have been fitted with more different steel layers, which would lead to a significant increase in performance - layering steel plates with different characteristics like ductility and hardness are known to offer better performance than normal armour steel (RHA), which itself is better than cast armour (CHA) by a considerable amount (5 to 15% according to Soviet writers).

How Kanchan armour looks is quite unknown, but Western composite armour and Soviet/Russian composite armour both seem to rely mainly on one mechanism, even though the Soviet version is less sophisticated.

You might check your post again, I wont be saying this if you dont..
I said the following (at least I thing you are refering to this statement): " As you said, the Russians didn't send you "critical tech for armour panels", that's the reason why the T-90 is now assembled with "[t]he metallurgy used for the Arjun"."; I did not say "the T-90 uses Kanchan", but I was under the impression based on the comment from ersakthivel (which I quoted there), that the metallurgy means in this context that the T-90 is outfitted with steel alloys produced following the same procedures as the steel on Arjun.


Its about RHA plates..
Not really. RHA is refering only to a very small part of all possible metal alloys. Now public available U.S. documents show that the U.S. had defined "RHA" pretty strict by defining how much of an alloy component had to be in RHA and how much of it could be there (minimum and maximum for most alloy ingredients). The U.S. split RHA itself into three types, which should be used for different components (i.e. hull floor armour had to be more ductile, roof armour had to be harder to resist splinter better and normal armour at front and sides had to be ductile and a moderate hardnes) and which hardness this armour should have in dependence of it's thickness.

Generally, metallurgy affects all types of metal, like WHA and DU for penetrators, titanium and aluminium alloys for light vehicles, HHS and SHS, etc,

I also wanted to know, If a round is effective as 500mm of RHA penetration from 2000menters, What will be its penetration from 100meters ?
This is depending on the exact characteristics of the round. Generally we can say that the deacceleration of modern ammunition is in the area of 50 to 70 m/s per kilometer (APFSDS with low diameter and thin fins deaccelerate less than APFSDS with greater diameter and larger fins). Some known figures:
120 mm DM 53 - 55 m/s/km
M829A1 - 65 m/s/km
Modern Polish APFSDS from Brumar - 50 m/s
British 105 mm L64A4 APFSDS - 55 m/s

Generally there is no simple answer, because the relation between penetration and velocity is not linear and depending on the accelerated mass:
 

p2prada

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Methos,

The tanks supplied by Russia have their own armour. The tanks being manufactured in India have Kanchan. I had posted links a year ago on the other armour thread. It had reports quoting officials saying the same.
 

Kunal Biswas

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The Russian armour is "sandwich armour". On the T-72B the armour consisted of a 815 mm thick cast steel turret with a 435 mm cavity, which was filled with sandwich plates made of steel, rubber and "hard metal" (steel or hard aluminium alloy according to the internet) and a high-hardness steel (HHS) plate. declassified documents and also normal literature. Zaloga for example described the T-72B armour as Soviet version of Chobham.

"Known" examples of Western composite armour show that the armour is more complex in the sense of more layers and more different types of layers. Still the main defeat mechanism seems to be similar.
That is why i said they are different structurally and work differently when there is an impact, It depend on there design how an round behave when penetrated...



Rough idea on Kanchan..

that the metallurgy means in this context that the T-90 is outfitted with steel alloys produced following the same procedures as the steel on Arjun. Not really. RHA is refering only to a very small part of all possible metal alloys.
I never heard these terminologies in Indian Context..

What told, The Plates ( RHA ) have more volume and thicker but due to its composition its weight is lesser, yet effective...

Modern Polish APFSDS from Brumar - 50 m/s
But when given that Polish Round penetrate 500mm RHA from 2000meters means ( As per above data ) at 2000ms its velocity is 1550m/s not its initial velocity 1650m/s,Having higher velocity at closer range have much higher penetration capability, 50-100 meters is quite a point blank from tank guns, In that sense at this close range the penetration is not 500mm of RHA but much higher..
 

ersakthivel

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It seems the discussion is between facts and hopes.
Prada, I have already sent a personal message to you to not drag things on.

Either you ask serious questions to professionals so that members can know better about tanks or simply don't pass one liners and two liners as comments to provoke others.It is not a film review.

Only hopes like arjun evolve into wetern MBT standards.

Old 50 Odd ton T-90 like Facts will be obsolete once pakis will procure advanced rounds.They will never offer the western style crew protection.

ERA will be blown off in cassete they are one hit protection armour.

SO saying ERa will make up for the lesser armour is going to a war with few bullets in hand.Only bulky multi hit resistant armour can protect tank and crew .

And rounds atored on the tT-90s ground can explode the moment there is any fire inside the tank.
Even ARJUN MK-I has separate ammo compartments that will save ammo,
from fire inside the tank produced because of hits on others places of the tank.
Even this elementary protection is not available it T-90.
But ARJUN MK-II is supposed to go a step above with more safe ammo storage with blow off panels to protect tank and crew.
Same as M1A1 ABRAMS or any other western tanks.
And if there is no internal volume where will be the space for new weapon systems and rounds in future?

SO bring something to the discussion.Everyone here knows both you and me are no tank professionals.
 
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Damian

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About the ERA, I'am not a big "fan" of this type of protection, but of course designers solved some problems with it's "one hit" nature.

This solution is to reduce size of cassettes, so if cassette is hit, the non protected surface will be smaller, more difficult to be hit again. On the other hand however, cassettes seems to be designed in such way that they are not too small in case of universal ERA, because it probably means reduced effectiveness against APFSDS ammunition, due to shorter time of interaction between ERA and penetrator.

However IMHO everyone should give a chance for Ukrainian ERA Knife and it's layered version Dublet, it would be good if this ERA could be tested. Americans obtained Knife, but they keep quiet about any tests on it... wonder why.
 

methos

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Methos,

The tanks supplied by Russia have their own armour. The tanks being manufactured in India have Kanchan. I had posted links a year ago on the other armour thread. It had reports quoting officials saying the same.
I have read here different claims about this. Kunal Biswas for example said that the Arjun and the T-90S would use different armour.

That is why i said they are different structurally and work differently when there is an impact, It depend on there design how an round behave when penetrated...



Rough idea on Kanchan..
Well, I don't think that this is enough to say how Kanchan looks and that this is based on a proper source. Please think about the following: Modern NATO and modern Russian/Ukranian tanks both use armour mainly making use of the bulging effect of elastomeres under (high) strain - is it very probable that Kanchan looks much different?
Many sources including tons of books described Chobham in a similar manner than your image depicts Kanchan - i.e. ceramic tiles in a special matrix of kevlar or plastic sandwiched between aluminium/steel plates. But many evidence has surfaced that Chobhm is in fact a type of NERA... which somehow makes sense because the first sources describing Chobham like this came from the late-1970s (e.g. a book from 1978).
Maybe Kanchan looks differently, but then it would be different than any other "known" tank armour...
Armour making use of ceramics, fiber glass and aluminium was used in the early 1970s on Soviet tanks already, but abandoned later.

But when given that Polish Round penetrate 500mm RHA from 2000meters means ( As per above data ) at 2000ms its velocity is 1550m/s not its initial velocity 1650m/s,Having higher velocity at closer range have much higher penetration capability, 50-100 meters is quite a point blank from tank guns, In that sense at this close range the penetration is not 500mm of RHA but much higher..
The difference isn't much. The kinetic energy is depending on two factors - velocity and also mass. The Polish penetrator has only a small weight (3.5 kg), which means that the difference in energy with reduced velocity is only very small compared to other modern ammunition (liek DM33/43/53, M829/A1/2/3, Lekalo/Svinets etc.) - the energy difference between 1,650 m/s and 1,550 m/s is only 0.56 MJ for the Polish penetrator, while the difference between 0 and 2,000 m is ~0.9 MJ on modern Western APFSDS.
 

p2prada

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I have read here different claims about this. Kunal Biswas for example said that the Arjun and the T-90S would use different armour.
Yeah. The official was talking about 130mm plates.

The information is sketchy though.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Well, I don't think that this is enough to say how Kanchan looks and that this is based on a proper source.
What i showed is from what i learned for article & inside people that i know, and we have photo of Kanchan module exterior, there are no links from Inside about its full details..

The difference isn't much. The kinetic energy is depending on two factors - velocity and also mass..
Exactly, When we use Rifles ( 5.56mm ) it behave similar to tank rounds fired from tank guns, Its initial velocity is much higher cause greater penetration,Longer it goes it lose energy and start dropping, The energy difference is not greater in that too, But decisive in Armour and material penetration, I hear about the energy difference but what is asked is not answered..
 

ersakthivel

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Broadsword: Search results for arjun
Also how we can reduce the arjun cost by ordring larger quantities rather than the piece meal 124 plus 124 nos.
If tne army orders higher numbers the price will drop by 30 percent according to SIVAKUMAR ,CVRDE director
.
So the price of 37 crores per piece of arjun is largely due to the higher import conent.
indigenisation can be carried out,only if a higher number of orders are given . This will result in price dropping by more than 30 percent.
But since army orders lesser numbers of well proven arjun only in 100s,
The price is higher at 37 crores as stated by A.K.Antony in parliament,making it look like prohibitively expensive.
But lesser price quoted for T-90 excludes
1.protection systems like SHOTRA,
2.life cycle costs due to import of spares at higher prices latter.
3.Ballooning mid life upgradation costs in future exchange rate for dollar.
4.Masking the defeciencies in electronics for hotter desert climate that need to upgraded spending more.
5.Lesser firing range and lesser night fighting capability than arjun.

6.And for it's effectiveness the T-90 depends upon the DRDO made ammo not russian ammo.So if you say the T-90 fires deadly ammo then the cost of T-90 shoots up further , because you should add the developmental cost ofthis german imported DRDO modified ammo in T-90 price.

8.During operation parakram the T-90 was not battle ready as a complete imported proven system because it's thermal vision malfunctioned at dessert temperature.The DRDO ammo was not fired acccurately thereby by forcing the army to import russian ammo and further work orders for DRDO to make it compatiable with indian AMMO.



7.No transfer tech for turret and gun barrels,which was solved using tech devoloped for arjun,So ideally the T-90 costs more because you should add the developmental cost of ARJUn GUN metaullargy in T-90 price.

8.Also after refusal from the russians kanchan armour was used on armour plates of T-90,So ideally the T-90 costs more because you should add the developmental cost of KANCHAN y in T-90 price.

9.Also army os looking for airconditioner to cool theT-90 whose electronics are not hardened for desert conditions,there by extra cost. For this same reason army oncedisparaged ARJUN when once it's electronics didn't worn in desert. The DRDO solved it and the russians are not going to solve it, SO only the army has to bear the extra cost of solving it.

10. So we should add all of them when we make it's cost comparision with arjun,leave alone the capability comparision.




Army's criticism that the Arjun's 60-ton weight --- run counter to the army's own GSQR.

What is clear is that the MoD is happy with the Arjun. According to the Parliamentary Standing Committee for Defence's last annual report for 2007-08, the MoD testified before the Committee that the Arjun tank was:

"¢ "A product unique in its class", and "an improved system over the T-72."
"¢ "Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West".
"¢ "Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)".
"¢ "Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem."

So you judge: if that's what the MoD is saying... but the critics convey an entirely false impression?

Did the ARMY conducted ACCRUT TRIALS WITH T-90 before ordering in deserts and various conditions in INDIA before ordering them in thousands,which the russian army has not done?

Where any results published like the MMRCA results saying only RAFALE and EUROFIGHTER cleared the IAF specs.?

Whether all the systems and electronics tested in desert heat condition and evaluation made?

 
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ersakthivel

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Thi is the post by forum memeber SAN ------post no-126 in
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-9.html
Kuldip Nayar

TO WRITE anything about the T-90 is like flogging a dead horse. Right from its inception the deal has generated more controversy than any other Defence contract. Several questions remain unanswered, such as the replacement of the aging Vijayanta tanks.

Pakistan's acquisition of T-84 from Ukraine has made India's modernisation of its fleet of tanks all the more necessary. Thus, the Government's decision to acquire the T-90s from Russia is welcome. But the deal, for some reason, has, it is felt, been str uck without proper field trials in India. One cannot make out what compelled New Delhi to do so. Some T-90 tanks were flown in from Russia and tried but found wanting. I shall come to that later but more baffling is the appointment of a one-man committee , headed by Lt Gen S. S. Mehta. The Deputy Chief of Army Staff was made solely responsible for selecting the tanks and giving his assessment report on field trials. Now he has been appointed chairman.

Despite 90-odd meetings between Moscow and New Delhi, the deal continued to stay at relatively lower level. It never went to the top echelons of the government, where the disputes that arose could have been sorted out. It is evident that there is more to it than meets the eye. Perhaps, some technical issues have been overlooked to serve vested interests. Accusing fingers are pointed at some politicians as well. This charge cannot easily be brushed aside as the tanks are vital to the country's defence an d security.

The Russians have claimed that the T-90 engine generates 1,000 horse power (HP), which fits the requirements of the Indian Army. During field trials in India, it was found that the engine was getting overheated and the tanks lacked the power to negotiate the desert terrain.

The technical people, especially from the EME and DGQA, were surprised to find the horse power rating of the engine not conforming to the specifications. The Russians, it is said, tried to mislead the trial team, persisting with their claim that the engi ne was generating 1,000 HP.

When the technicians tested the engine more than once it was found to generate only 840 HP. The Russians, however, assured the trial team that the engine brought for trials would not be the one fitted on to the tanks meant for India. Instead, they would put in the engine with 1,000 HP. This was just a verbal assurance.

On this mere undertaking, India finalised the contract. When the technicians protested against such a procedure they were apparently informed that before the despatch of the engine, the technical team could visit Russia and do a pre-despatch inspection a t the factory to satisfy themselves.

In other words, the Russians would mount the 1,000 HP engine on the tanks meant for India. If the engine does not produce 1,000 HP, and if there is a doubt about its performance, why should India go for such contracts? The Army would like to test the tan ks in Indian conditions, and it has strict norms for that.

Traditionally, demonstration of equipment is done only in the selling country. But the field trial takes place in the buying country. This means the final trial of the tanks or its components should have been done in India. New Delhi should not have acce pted the assurances by Moscow because the contract has serious financial ramifications.

Never before has such a deal been struck. A case in point is the signing of the fire control system contract SUV-72 and SUV-55 with Yugoslavia in 1987. After the contract was signed and the advance paid, the political situation in Yugoslavia deteriorated so much that the contract had to be abandoned.

This meant the loss of the advance paid. When this example is applied to the T-90 tanks, it means that the advance has been paid to Moscow on the understanding that the engine would generate 1,000 HP -- that too, after the trials in the country of origin .

What happens if the pre-despatch inspection fails? In any case, the true test of engine capability will be known only after it is mounted on a tank and tested in Indian conditions. It is, therefore, the Government's responsibility to avoid being lured in to a contract that is not foolproof. Equally, it would be more prudent to have the 1,000 HP tank trials in India in summer, before the contract is implemented.

The story about spares for the T-72 tanks is no less dubious. This battle-tank has been with us for 20 years. But the countries from which we acquire spares for them do not produce the tank.

Then there is the case of transfer of technology. All the drawings are lying in New Delhi, with the Russian text untranslated. The Government depends on some vague part numbers, which keep changing. It does not get anything it really requires. The excheq uer is put to great loss. Allegedly, wrong or spurious parts are supplied, and paid for at an inflated price.

There are charges that we are upgrading our 130mm guns to 150mm, and giving the order to Solton. The ordnance factory in Kanpur has developed prototypes that have been tested at Balasore. Why is the contract not given to the Kanpur factory? Are all these factories going to be converted into another NTC, where we pay the wages, maintain the establishment at great cost and get no work done? That, I think, is another area affecting our security because, if we have a war lasting 15-20 days or more, and if w e do not get the spares, how are we going to fight?

Looking back, it seems that most of our Defence deals have question marks against them. Either there are compromises on specifications or wrong purchases have been made. The T-90 tank deal evokes such fears.


http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessli...s/040255ku.htm
Has T-90s gone through the same of trial of fire gone through by the ARJUN , And met the contractual obligations like arjun
We can say arjun is a costly tank,otherwise saying ARJUN is costly is an ill informed judgement at the most.
 
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ersakthivel

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With these kind of contract negotiations during war time can we get crucial help in time.The USSR times are different.We had a strategic treaty with USSR which resulted in india winning the war of 1972. But during YELSTIN's time as Russian president it was waterdowned to mere friendship treaty. Now Russia India relationship is more akin to buyer seller relationship.So the same level of evaluation is neccassary for T-90, like in the same way for MMRCA,ARJUN and LCA.


Arjun's cost does not include programme cost. that is why DRDO was asking 500 tank buy from IA for them to break even.
THE ammo life cycle cost etc.. it is the same as as T-90 ,because it is DRDO which has developed ammo for both of them..


There are many peolple who say arjun should have proved itself to this standard in 2000. But T-90 hasn't exceeded the ARJUN standards upto now,did the army considerit?
The T-90 is still looking for APU,cooling needs for electronics and engine power output reduction during summer.
It is ordered in thousands.
ARJUN has already cleared these troubles and goes further by having more protection and separate storage and blow off panels for ammunition safeguarding the crew and made strictly according to army GSQR and tested for 60000 km and 10000 firings and still gets order in 100s.

When it comes to MMRCA the evaluation is done for the best aircraft fulfilling IAF needs.
But when it comes to ARJUn vs T-90,it is never about finding what suits the army's needs,but to find an OPERATIONAL ROLE FOR ARMY TO FIND WHERE IT FITS.
Does that mean the army gave a GSQR to drdo WITHOUT KNOWING WHERE "arjun fits in its operational need".So they are going to find out now ,without "COMPARING THEM"
WHY?
 
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