Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Godless-Kafir

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This is the actual size of the Arjun crew compartment, unlike on the ztz-99 which has no Ammo storage the Arjun has ammo storage and blow of panel. The size inside the turret is more of less the same and not sure what is the scene with the side. The armor is a secret but i will have to get close and find out next time.

 

Godless-Kafir

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No, are You blind? Can't You even properly interpret what You see? You completely messed up everything... Christ now to explain You something that simple I will need to use tons of photos and made correct drawings...
No i am not blind i see the armor on the M1A1 is thick on the side, no dispute over that. It was your drawing that looked like an over estimation.
 
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Damian

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No i am not blind i see the armor on the M1A1 is thick on the side, no dispute over that. It was your drawing that looked like an over estimation.
My drawing is proper, only You have problems to properly interpret photos. I based my estimation on these actuall interior and exterior photos. I spend years on making research on M1 tanks, so I know what I am talking about.



These photos and drawing clearly shows that You are wrong GK.

Note! It was too big to be placed on Imageshack, I needed to resize it, and to see smaller details, enlargement is needed.
 

Godless-Kafir

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My drawing is proper, only You have problems to properly interpret photos. I based my estimation on these actuall interior and exterior photos. I spend years on making research on M1 tanks, so I know what I am talking about.



These photos and drawing clearly shows that You are wrong GK.

Note! It was too big to be placed on Imageshack, I needed to resize it, and to see smaller details, enlargement is needed.
You have a point on the thickness on the side, it is robust and is also sloped, the blue line however is marginally off.

The Arjun is 58.5 tons and the M1A1 is 68 tons. The arjun turret can be upgraded without a redesign by adding more armor on the side which may increase the weight to 62 tons including ERA and the new 1500HP engine would be a perfect combo. The Arjun is set on the path of evolution and will be a great tank.
 

Damian

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You have a point on the thickness on the side, it is robust and is also sloped, the blue line however is marginally off.
To make a drawing properly within a weld line I would need to get on a real tank myself, messure everything inside and outside, mark the proper points and then draw everything on photos.

However as I said, more or less correct placement of composite armor can be decuded by using weld line.

The Arjun is 58.5 tons and the M1A1 is 68 tons. The arjun turret can be upgraded without a redesign by adding more armor on the side which may increase the weight to 62 tons including ERA and the new 1500HP engine would be a perfect combo. The Arjun is set on the path of evolution and will be a great tank.
M1A1SA and M1A2SEP weight is something around 63,1 tons (63,100 kg's), 68 tons will be probably short tons, not metric tons.

As for side armor, the best way to improve it there is to throw off these storage boxes, and weld there steel plates to create cavity for Kanchan composite armor inserts.

As for changes in Arjun design, many things need to be changed, gun, turret ammo storage, and things You mentioned + goo idea would be to redesign main sight area.
 

methos

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This is the actual size of the Arjun crew compartment, unlike on the ztz-99 which has no Ammo storage the Arjun has ammo storage and blow of panel. The size inside the turret is more of less the same and not sure what is the scene with the side. The armor is a secret but i will have to get close and find out next time.
The Arjun displayed at the Defexpo did not have an isolated ammunition comparment - if this is different on other vehicles might be possible, but not probable.
 

Kunal Biswas

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but not probable.
Prototype displayed in expo are not same as operational one, that prototype may be from early 2008 or 05, Arjun have blowup panels not just for just show ?
 

Kunal Biswas

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As for side armor, the best way to improve it there is to throw off these storage boxes, and weld there steel plates to create cavity for Kanchan composite armor inserts.

As for changes in Arjun design, many things need to be changed, gun, turret ammo storage, and things You mentioned + goo idea would be to redesign main sight area.
The way i see, most easy and immediate way of upgrading to such standard can only by having something similar to LeoA4 evolution package..



-------------------------



---------------

Newer deign Arjun can be similar to Leo2 a6 turret..

But this is just me..
 

methos

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Prototype displayed in expo are not same as operational one, that prototype may be from early 2008 or 05, Arjun have blowup panels not just for just show ?
This would mean that the earliest Arjun delievered to IA would have no isolated ammunition stowage. Prior 2005 at least 16 Arjuns entered service, prior 2008 even more were already delievered (still less than 45). If this was a prototype from the 2000s, then there are several problems. Arjun was ordered for the first time in 2000, which would mean that at the time they ordered the Arjun did not have an isoldated ammunition comparment. It would also mean that even after 2-3 decades after NATO started introducing sperated ammunition storage in the turret, the Indian tank designers didn't incorporate it up to 200X.
So in my opinion there are only two options:
1. The Arjun tank displayed on the Defexpo is even older, something done in the 90s - to prove or disprove this we would need to take a closer look at when the current features of the Arjun were introduced and which of these can be found in the Arjun displayed.
2. The Arjun (at least the earliest batches) does not have a isolated ammunition comparment.

If the things on the ammunition storage of the Arjun are blow-out panels or just large hatches for reloading is unknown to me. But I would like to point out that all Western tanks do not have handles at their blow-out panels (and I really don't see the sense in putting there handles/clingers). It is something I can't call blow-out panel for sure - it may be, but it also could be something different. At least the tank displayed on Defexpo also had this panels/hatches.
 

Damian

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Hmmm, photos from factory also shows handles on that panels. Well as we know servicing this turret magazine in field might be difficult, for example replacing it in case of emergency or some damage. Perhaps indeed it is not blow off panel but service hatch? On the other hand blow off panel can be also service hatch in the same time, both will be just blowe up in case of ammunition deflagration.

But there is something else, on photos from DEFEXPO and from some magazine with interior photos of Arjun turret, it seems that turret magazine is not izolated.

I have request, do anyone have a photo of Arjun interior, and photographed tanks is used in some unit? The best thing would be a series of photos of different tanks from different units.

But there is something else, if I remember correctly it was reported that Arjun Mk2 will have some redesigns and upgrade when it comes to ammunition magazine.

I have theory that Arjun Mk1 as initial variant didn't had turret ammunition magazine isolated due to some reasons (maybe mechanism was not ready?) and decision was made to build Arjun Mk1's without isolated turret magazine while the Mk2 will introduce isolated turret magazine?
 

Kunal Biswas

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it may be, but it also could be something different. At least the tank displayed on Defexpo also had this panels/hatches.

There is no way such flaw can be in operational tanks, You can see photos of Arjun blow up panels..
 

sayareakd

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no more pic of arjun is available, due to officials secrets act, possession and posting of the same is offence and person can face jail term.
 

Damian

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There is no way such flaw can be in operational tanks, You can see photos of Arjun blow up panels..
Well hopefully You can prove it somehow? ;)

no more pic of arjun is available, due to officials secrets act, possession and posting of the same is offence and person can face jail term.
It is strange to make secrecy from such trivial things like vehicle interior... but it is only question of time, British were also claiming that they will never show Challenger 2 interior, and what happend? Not only we have prototype turret interior but also British MoD finally released photos of vehicle. ;P
 

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Well hopefully You can prove it somehow? ;)
The Arjun MK1 ammo storage consists of individual ballistic steel cases with individual containerization of each ammunition piece. The turret block holding ammo, is actually given new locking handles to keep the caps (plus rounds within) in place. Each round has to be individually opened up with the lock released, and then removed. Though in trials, I was told, since only a few rounds are carried in the turret, and nobody's shooting back, they don't use the caps and just take the rounds in the empty turret rack, with the locking handle effective even against the steel obturator base cap, to keep the round in place.

The turret ammunition box extends further into the bustle which has blow off panels emplaced above it. The designers when asked about how this works did not reply in depth because of the presence of army personnel who were not keen on the Arjun features being described to the public. This was in 2007, when things were still a bit restrictive when it came to the Arjun as it had not then finished development, and aced the T-90. Things are better now. I would never have imagined a day when the public would be allowed to crawl all over the tank.

However, the concept as mentioned is the same as in the Merkava, which actually uses boxes in earlier variants, composite ones to prevent flame effects. The Arjun designers preferred ballistic steel + IFDSS. The cases have been designed to protect against slag/shrapnel and penetration after effects, and have been tested. The designers also looked into various other methods, including wet stowage, box storage etc - and finally chose this one, as a good cost effective method. Apparently, the automated bin system on the Abrams could have been both expensive, and mechanically complex (an additional point of failure). I read this more as design conservatism as at the time, the Arjun was already being accused by T-series supporters in the Army of being too western (read complex, and hence liable to fail without finicky maintenance).

The Arjun, like most other tanks do nowadays, also has an IFDSS (fire suppression system as well).

The basic aim of the armoured protection for each round (each of which is separated from the other) is to prevent a quick sympathetic detonation. If one round cooks off, then the others don't, not in such a fast period of time, that they take the crew with them.

Anyways, the MK1 is regarded as significantly safer than the T-72 storage by army personnel at a public event. They have had instances in the T-72 where shell tears meant burning fragments down the hoist into the carousel and the tank brewed up. Plus the open, exposed rounds all around the tank. I hope the T-90 is better, but I have read nothing to indicate the Indian ones are any different.

In MK2, the entire turret ammo, because apparently the Army is now ok with the concept and is not averse to the Arjun getting more and more fancy "western style stuff", is walled off, Abrams style behind an armoured bulkhead or at least that is the plan. How they implement it - eg Merk style rotating storage behind the bustle - we don't know yet. This should be even safer than the current bin system.

Production quality has also improved by leaps and bounds in the MK1 over the initial OFB prototypes, they were very sloppily finished within, and DRDO engineers with the tank were noticeably dismayed at the lack of effort/care.

The big issue is cooling. The DRDO had developed its own cool suits for the Arjun crew but were even evaluating a supposedly more compact system developed by an Indian entrepreneur. It is this aspect, which would really be worth its weight in gold to the Indian armour. The temperature inside the tanks at summer, in the Thar is horrible. And the Russian tanks, cramped - even more so. Its a very bad situation. Especially as in unlike previous conflicts, with the nuclear angle in mind, troops may have to operate buttoned up. If so...very hard.
 

drkrn

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there is some thing i really like about Drdo
enthusiasm of kids and highest management is not giving up a fight to make their product world class.

with this attitude they will be winning the battle for sure.
 

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