Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[pmaitra]

Radar for what? Offense or defense?

Are we looking at 'radar guided' shells? Technically, possible, but do they really exists?

 

[p2prada]

Let me rephrase again, will it help Arjun in achieving first shot over the enemy? If I were to suppose the usage of radar in armoured warfare is similar as it is in air warfare, then an air craft with a longer ranged radar has a better chance of first shot. And in this particular case, a platform with radar against the one without it.

As for the cost, it costs about USD 100,000. So, do still think that it is costly considering Arjun is poised to be an expensive platform, i.e. well over $ 7million.

A radar comes with it's own problems and requires a maintenance crew ready at all times. Not possible to have one on a frontline tank.

 

[blueblood]

Radar for what? Offense or defense?
Are we looking at 'radar guided' shells? Technically, possible, but do they really exists?

For detection of enemy armour. AFAIK, the primary way to detect an enemy tank is IR signature. What exactly is the range of such systems?

A radar comes with it's own problems and requires a maintenance crew ready at all times. Not possible to have one on a frontline tank.

Off course, but if we were to consider the particular case of Arjun, it'll be facing Paki tanks and will have numerical superiority on it's side. With the advantage of shooting first, face of battle can be changed pretty quickly.

Early detection will also help the LAHAT, which again out ranges any ATGM and GLATGM in Pak inventory.

 

[pmaitra]

For detection of enemy armour. AFAIK, the primary way to detect an enemy tank is IR signature. What exactly is the range of such systems?

I was thinking of the Arena APS, which is a defensive system. This one has I think 50 m of effective range. Range is not really an issue if there is enough power.

Off course, but if we were to consider the particular case of Arjun, it'll be facing Paki tanks and will have numerical superiority on it's side. With the advantage of shooting first, face of battle can be changed pretty quickly.

True.

Early detection will also help the LAHAT, which again out ranges any ATGM and GLATGM in Pak inventory.

Yes, but I am yet to get news of production starting. It will be a sabot-style canisterized projectile, that will discard the canister and the missile will ignite once outside the barrel. Rather complicated, IMHO.

 

[pmaitra]

Also check this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-armour-technology-post463207.html#post463207

I hope we learn more about Relikt.

 

[blueblood]

I was thinking of the Arena APS, which is a defensive system. This one has I think 50 m of effective range. Range is not really an issue if there is enough power.



True.



Yes, but I am yet to get news of production starting. It will be a sabot-style canisterized projectile, that will discard the canister and the missile will ignite once outside the barrel. Rather complicated, IMHO.

Not the APS but for the detection of enemy armour. IR imaging systems are responsible, right? If yes, do you think they can see (detect) beyond the horizon? Average standing man's horizon is 5km, add a couple more for the tank's sight. OTOH, a radar like BFSR is providing you a range of 10 km minimum.

Please count the Indo-Pak scenario when judging.

 

[pmaitra]

Not the APS but for the detection of enemy armour. IR imaging systems are responsible, right? If yes, do you think they can see (detect) beyond the horizon? Average standing man's horizon is 5km, add a couple more for the tank's sight. OTOH, a radar like BFSR is providing you a range of 10 km minimum.

Please count the Indo-Pak scenario when judging.

Yeah, they have to have that kind of range. LAHAT is believed to have 8 km range, but I don't know what range the Arjun-fired version will have, but it is optics based (laser), not radar.

I don't know if radar is relevant when it comes to shells.

 

[blueblood]

Yeah, they have to have that kind of range. LAHAT is believed to have 8 km range, but I don't know what range the Arjun-fired version will have, but it is optics based (laser), not radar.

I don't know if radar is relevant when it comes to shells.

Again, my point is just detection. The earlier you detect the sooner you fire a shot, especially if you have a better missile.

I have no reason to believe that Arjun fired version should have any less range than the original version.

 

[pmaitra]

Again, my point is just detection. The earlier you detect the sooner you fire a shot, especially if you have a better missile.

Yes, indeed, but then, you won't have a radar sitting atop the turret. It will be tucket away inside somewhere in the front shroud or within the dimensions of the tank someplace else. That can be challenging. This is an open question for those that know to answer.

I have no reason to believe that Arjun fired version should have any less range than the original version.

Lahat is 105mm in diameter. Arjun's bore is 120mm in diameter. Canisterization should not be a problem. Length might be an issue, and perhaps will entail auto loading. So, the rifle will fire the canister, so imagine the canister as a shell, which will require its own charge. Then, once the canister is out of the barrel, the canister will fire the LAHAT, just like a sabot.

 

[blueblood]

Yes, indeed, but then, you won't have a radar sitting atop the turret. It will be tucket away inside somewhere in the front shroud or within the dimensions of the tank someplace else. That can be challenging. This is an open question for those that know to answer.

A bit more elaboration will help.

Lahat is 105mm in diameter. Arjun's bore is 120mm in diameter. Canisterization should not be a problem. Length might be an issue, and perhaps will entail auto loading. So, the rifle will fire the canister, soimagine the canister as a shell, which will require its own charge. Then, once the canister is out of the barrel, the canister will fire the LAHAT, just like a sabot.

I have a video of Leo2A4 firing Lahat on my system. The canister is ejected from the barrel and it does not works the way you mentioned. Canister is however required to negotiate the bore difference.

Israel Aerospace Industries Unveil Multi-Purpose Lahat

Unlike most ATGMs around, Lahat does not need a canister or tube to be fired.

 

[pmaitra]

A bit more elaboration will help.

Think of the Rajendra radar. See how big it is. Obviously you cannot have something like that on a tank. How will they fit a radar in Arjun? That is my question. I don't know, which is why I said it is an open question.

I have a video of Leo2A4 firing Lahat on my system. The canister is ejected from the barrel and it does not works the way you mentioned. Canister is however required to negotiate the bore difference.

Israel Aerospace Industries Unveil Multi-Purpose Lahat

Unlike most ATGMs around, Lahat does not need a canister or tube to be fired.

LAHAT does not need a tank gun, but with Arjun, are they going to have bays for housing systems like this below?

Or are they going to canisterize the LAHAT? My bet would be on canisterized LAHAT. See the Leopard firing a LAHAT; which I believe is the same thing with Arjun.

Just as I described. Note, I did not describe how it works with Arjun. It was a general description.

I said it was a Sabot-style projectile, i.e. a projectile within another projectile.

 

[blueblood]

Think of the Rajendra radar. See how big it is. Obviously you cannot have something like that on a tank. How will they fit a radar in Arjun? That is my question. I don't know, which is why I said it is an open question.

LAHAT does not need a tank gun, but with Arjun, are they going to have bays for housing systems like this below?

Or are they going to canisterize the LAHAT? My bet would be on canisterized LAHAT. See the Leopard firing a LAHAT; which I believe is the same thing with Arjun.

Just as I described. Note, I did not describe how it works with Arjun. It was a general description.

I said it was a Sabot-style projectile, i.e. a projectile within another projectile.

Go through my posts again. I was talking about the BFSR mounted on the right hand side of the turret. It weighs 30 kgs

Off course it will be canisterized. But no soft launch or propellant will be used. That's my guess.

The screenshot you posted is of the same video, if you have it, you will see that it it was a hard launch.

 

[pmaitra]

^^

Well, I'd rather speculate based on a tank that has similarities with the Arjun, and Leopard is the one. So look at the picture I posted. I don't know why you want to look into alternative examples. I don't want to, because I think those examples are irrelevant.

 

[blueblood]

^^

Well, I'd rather speculate based on a tank that has similarities with the Arjun, and Leopard is the one. So look at the picture I posted. I don't know why you want to look into alternative examples. I don't want to, because I think those examples are irrelevant.

That's what I said mate. I think we are having a communication gap.
Let me clear some air.

1) CGI as well as the pic of Arjun Mk2 has a square shaped "something" on the right hand side of it's turret. Saya predicted that it could be BFSR. I asked Damian and Methos that if it is, then what are it's merits and demerits, keeping in mind the Indo-Pak scenario.

2) From the video it seems that the Lahat fired from the Leo2A4 was a hard launch not the soft launch so no propellant is needed.

 

[pmaitra]

That's what I said mate. I think we are having a communication gap.
Let me clear some air.

1) CGI as well as the pic of Arjun Mk2 has a square shaped "something" on the right hand side of it's turret. Saya predicted that it could be BFSR. I asked Damian and Methos that if it is, then what are it's merits and demerits, keeping in mind the Indo-Pak scenario.

In that case, we'll have to wait for more details. Everyone is speculating right now.

2) From the video it seems that the Lahat fired from the Leo2A4 was a hard launch not the soft launch so no propellant is needed.

In the Leopard case, there is propellant. See the fire at the muzzle. There has to be propellant.

 

[blueblood]

In that case, we'll have to wait for more details. Everyone is speculating right now.

True, but what are the speculations?

In the Leopard case, there is propellant. See the fire at the muzzle. There has to be propellant.

Maybe or could be the flame from LAHAT. I repeat, it does not look like a soft launch.

 

[redragon]

how many Arjun does IA have?

 

[pmaitra]

True, but what are the speculations?

Everything you mentioned in post #2787, and what I think about LAHAT, given Leopard's picture.

Maybe or could be the flame from LAHAT. I repeat, it does not look like a soft launch.

The flames have different colours, so they cannot be from the same source or propellant. Anyway, it is not a big deal, as long as the missile does its job.

 

[sayareakd]

Lahat is 105mm in diameter. Arjun's bore is 120mm in diameter. Canisterization should not be a problem. Length might be an issue, and perhaps will entail auto loading. So, the rifle will fire the canister, so imagine the canister as a shell, which will require its own charge. Then, once the canister is out of the barrel, the canister will fire the LAHAT, just like a sabot.

LAHAT is fired from Arjun tank

here is how they solve the problem of firing from Arjun rifle gun they used rubber on side to match 120mm.

this is modified JV version of LAHAT

 

[pmaitra]

LAHAT is fired from Arjun tank

here is how they solve the problem of firing from Arjun rifle gun they used rubber on side to match 120mm.

Interesting. Looks like they used the same canister system like in the Leopard. Did they have that round at Defexpo 2012? Was it rubber or something else?

this is modified JV version of LAHAT

Here, it looks like metal, but one cannot tell.