Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[pankaj nema]

@Abhi9 The more soldiers we loose ; The Govt will come under MORE Pressure from the peacenik Lobby to make peace with pakistan

Peace talks with pakistan are Unacceptable to most Indians

And MOST Indians care for " Success " against Pakistan
How so ever small it may be

Because all that we got before 2014 was meek surrender before those pigs

Therefore we are happy when even Four Pakis die

One URI happens and the country wants war

So the Most important thing is BALANCE

Where we can wait for DRDO to get it right ; we should
Otherwise NOT

DRDO has done very well in many things

Even LCA ; BMD ; Nag ; Akash ; Dhanush Gun ie
all the stuck up projects are doing well

We cannot Loose an Opportunity to Smash the pakis just because DRDO could not make the Assault rifle or the Arjun tank in time

 

[tsunami]

Everyone keep on saying that a tank is not acceptable because it has to move inside PAK on Pakistani bridges. Will Pakistan leave those bridges intact if they have to fall back and can not hold on to their first line of defense??

 

[pankaj nema]

Everyone keep on saying that a tank is not acceptable because it has to move inside PAK on Pakistani bridges. Will Pakistan leave those bridges intact if they have to fall back and can not hold on to their first line of defense??

That depends on the Time you give to the enemy

The quicker you can out flank the enemy ; or get behind his rear the sooner you can freeze him and kill him

By the way if they demolish their own bridges it means that they have surrendered that much territory to the enemy

Because then neither they can get reinforcements nor their stranded troops can come back ; so the troops at the front line
will stand with IEDs to stop Indian Troops

 

[cyclops]

First sane post from your side, At no point in any of my msgs did i say that the army is Flawless the very onset i had very categorically mentioned THAT "THE ARMY TOO IS RESPONSIBLE THE WHOLE MESS" but what you failed to understand is the fact that the soldier who is standing on the ground will not neither understand nor buy the reason for the delay in giving him a Decent assault rifle because he is the one who putting his life at the LOC in the valley on daily basis, I duly understand the problems faced by our scientist in bypassing the red tapism and the Babudom but at the end of the day it is the soldier who has bear the brunt lay down his life and leave behind a family with a Thankless nation and its shrewd system. At this point why should not the Top brass of the Army act ?? why should they not buys products from outside?? If THEY LOOSE THE WAR THE GENERALS WILL BE RESPONSIBLE AND NOT THE SCIENTIST FROM A DRDO LAB WHO COULD NOT DELIVER THE PRODUCT ON TIME.

Thats the line which you have to understand if you can get through that the point of the entire heated discusssion will end here.

I am sure you have not seen a lad with a lapua round pumped inside his chest and vomiting blood from mouth and his buddy not even in a position to counter engage the in the general direction of fire with a weapon with that range and a optical device to assist, This is not fiction this is the incident which happened just a month back, go and pls tell that soldier what difficulty a scientist is facing and why should the Army not buy a product from a videshi vendor?? ( i will give his no he is currently in rehab centre with signs of depression)

You very confidently quoted when the Pigs bought T-80 UDs we ordered Tin -90s, can you please tell me what was the status of Arjun at that particular time?? Are you aware how much time it takes for tactics to develop around a machine?? What all parameters go into planning where a particular piece of machinery is gonna get fielded??

Any day and anytime LIFE of a soldier has more precedence over any bloody product be it desi or videshi i give a Rats ass to it.

The labs have to either perform or perish in todays fluid situation. You mentioned DOKLAM are you even aware what level was the escalation at?? You want to face the chinese with Sungars( bunkers) made of rocks at DOKLAM??

With all due respect to the science daans of our nation it has to be understood that their is a sense of urgency so pls get you acts together and act accordingly.

I completely agree with your assault rifle point.
Jawans should not be allowed to suffer because we cannot make guns and sighting systems, fast enough with consistent quality.
Guns are being used on a regular basis on the LOC, so without wasting much time lets just buy foreign stuff, no questions asked.
Anything that is being used on a regular basis its procurement should not be delayed.

But lets not conflate the issue of guns with tanks.
After all tanks are not being used on a daily basis and if we are comparing with pakis, we have more than enough quality tanks to punish them and then some.

Lets first acknowledge the fact that having tanks is not just simply buying tanks or even buying guns.
Tanks is spare parts, tanks is maintenance, tanks is overhaul, tanks is manpower other than the operators and tanks is a steady stabilized manufacturing line.

And you can't "have" tanks in the Indian context without any of the above, and the above factors aren't possible if you keep changing the goal posts and then not even order enough units of Arjun.
You can't really expect DRDO to open multiple facilities, employ a large number of engineers and other skilled workforce to just build a few 100 Arjuns. That is just not fair.

Arjun keeps getting dragged through the most unfair playing field and then without ordering a sufficient number of Arjuns how do you expect to have spare parts or speedy manufacturing?
This is exactly why a large number of Arjuns were grounded some time ago.

Its not like there is something extra being asked, the Russians wanted the same thing, wrt Russian military products being bought by us.
Then why is it that we are so ready to accommodate for the Russians but when DRDO asks the same we break out in hives?

I really want to empathize with the army I really do but c'mon it is bright as day that army hasn't really been aiding Arjun's development either.

When things like this appear; I am sorry but it becomes far too much to ignore.

Why is it so hard to follow the Merkava model?
Induct Arjun and keep ordering it enough so that we can make facilities for spare parts, overhaul and production.
And then slowly modernize it through Mk1s. 2s, 3s and so on.
But if you are unwilling to order even the minimum necessary amount then I think its rather disingenuous when you say Arjun is overweight or isn't good enough or its not being made fast enough.
Everything on the Arjun has been made as per the requirements of the Army from the 4 man crew to the mine plough.

Again, taali ek haat se nahi bajti.

DRDO has a shit ton of problems but lets also recognise that army too is not exactly complying with open arms.

As I have said before Arjun tank gets treated too much like a step child to have been named Arjun, it should have been named Karna tank instead.

 

[pankaj nema]

I completely agree with your assault rifle point.
Jawans should not be allowed to suffer because we cannot make guns and sighting systems, fast enough with consistent quality.
Guns are being used on a regular basis on the LOC, so without wasting much time lets just buy foreign stuff, no questions asked.
Anything that is being used on a regular basis its procurement should not be delayed.

But lets not conflate the issue of guns with tanks.
After all tanks are not being used on a daily basis and if we are comparing with pakis, we have more than enough quality tanks to punish them and then some.

Lets first acknowledge the fact that having tanks is not just simply buying tanks or even buying guns.
Tanks is spare parts, tanks is maintenance, tanks is overhaul, tanks is manpower other than the operators and tanks is a steady stabilized manufacturing line.

And you can't "have" tanks in the Indian context without any of the above, and the above factors aren't possible if you keep changing the goal posts and then not even order enough units of Arjun.

Arjun keeps getting dragged through the most unfair playing field and then without ordering a sufficient number of Arjuns how do you expect to have spare parts or speedy manufacturing?
This is exactly why a large number of Arjuns were grounded some time ago.

Its not like there is something extra being asked, the Russians wanted the same thing, wrt Russian military products being bought from India.
Then why is it that we are so ready to accommodate for the Russians but when DRDO asks the same we break out in hives?

I really want to empathize with the army I really do but c'mon it is bright as day that army hasn't really been aiding Arjun's development.

When things like this appear; I am sorry but it becomes far too much to ignore.

Why is it so hard to follow the Merkava model?
Induct Arjun and keep ordering it enough so that we can make facilities for spare parts, overhaul and production.
And then slowly modernize it through Mk1s. 2s, 3s and so on.
But if you are unwilling to order even the minimum necessary amount then I think its rather disingenuous when you say Arjun is overweight or isn't good enough.
Everything on the Arjun has been made as per the requirements of the Army from the 4 man crew to the mine plough.

Again, taali ek haat se nahi bajti.

DRDO has a shit ton of problems but lets also recognise that army too is not exactly complying with open arms.

As I have said before Arjun tank gets treated too much like a step child to have been named Arjun, it should have been named Karna tank.

There is no need to be sentimental about Arjun tanks

If Arjun Mk 2 is good enough ; we will get 500 of them

But by the time 500 Arjun Mk 2 tanks are ready it will AGAIN be time to move on

T 72s replacement will start after 2030

So it is better to start investment in FMBT

 

[Kchontha]

A weapon system develops when there is a close cooperation, coordination and collaboration between the OEM and the end user. However, the sad part of Arjun's saga seems like that of the three C's missing between the two ends.

 

[su35]

There is no need to be sentimental about Arjun tanks

If Arjun Mk 2 is good enough ; we will get 500 of them

But by the time 500 Arjun Mk 2 tanks are ready it will AGAIN be time to move on

T 72s replacement will start after 2030

So it is better to start investment in FMBT

What make you think FMBT will not meet that same fate as Arjun??
The weight requirement is not given by IA, then change it ant moment to halt the progress, or buy T 14 Armata in name emergency purchase just like T 90

 

[Vinod DX9]

If we buy T-14 it will be a disaster...
Will Russia give us
1) 44S-sv-Sh armour code?
2) 2A82 main gun?
3) Vaccum rounds?
4) 2000 hp engine?
5) Afghanit APS?

Rest electronics and sights..I am letting them go as we can develop

But these 5 I mentioned? Will we get them?
What is the advantage of getting a substandard tank?

 

[sayareakd]

@Abhi9 Please understand that in some weapon systems we Cannot wait for ever for DRDO to get it right

Operational preparedness is any day More important

The Army is answerable to the people and the Govt that
WHY it cannot retaliate against the enemy

For example after 26/11 ; Army had said that it was not prepared

DRDO has had many successes too

But we could not have waited for the Arjun tank endlessly

By the way Arjun Tanks weight is an issue

The Logistics trail and Cost goes up 2.5 Times In case of Arjun as compared to T 90

Plus The Tanks have to Move inside Pakistan

Will Pakistani Bridges Be able to withstand Arjun' s weight

The Pakistani Bridges are meant for taking the weight of AL Khalid and T 80

Our Sniper Gun weakness has been exposed

do you also want more soldiers to die for want of a Good Assault rifle

New Army tank concept is of same weight as Arjun tank, can you explain the logic???

Also why GSQR is same as Arjun tank, but not same for T90s/T72BU.

I asked same to army they didnt reply. Hope you will explain.

 

[sayareakd]

Mind your language gentlemen. Stick to topic.

 

[tsunami]

New Army tank concept is of same weight as Arjun tank, can you explain the logic???

Also why GSQR is same as Arjun tank, but not same for T90s/T72BU.

I asked same to army they didnt reply. Hope you will explain.

Can you please share details of GSQR submitted by army for new Tank??

 

[Steven Rogers]

Can you please share details of GSQR submitted by army for new Tank??

Max weight for future tank can be 57.5 tons.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Actually we have developed light weight steel which can be used in Arjun but OFB guys say that if Arjun is made using it then it will take 6 to 7 years.

 

[sayareakd]

Can you please share details of GSQR submitted by army for new Tank??

Check my twitter i posted everything.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Actually we have developed light weight steel which can be used in Arjun but OFB guys say that if Arjun is made using it then it will take 6 to 7 years.

Maybey they are gonna use it in FMBT

 

[tsunami]

Actually we have developed light weight steel which can be used in Arjun but OFB guys say that if Arjun is made using it then it will take 6 to 7 years.

Nitrogen steel?? How much weight will it reduce??

 

[WolfPack86]

Even a 60 tonne Arjun mk 2 tank is enough for Indian Army which can be easily transported by C-17 Globe master transport aircraft as well as new tank transporter can carry Arjun mk 2 tank.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Nitrogen steel?? How much weight will it reduce??

8 to 9% They say that they can reduce the weight of Arjun by 6 tons using the same.

 

[Blood Rain]

Qn- only arjun has the capability to take multiple hits and survive.
Ans- True, But whats the point if your tank is unable to cross over a bridge close to Lahore or in chambh jauria sector??? So you need a Tank which is mid weight with all the jing bang of the FMBT.

Meanwhile, as per the latest reports, the upcoming M1A2SEPV3 is gonna hit 72 tons, even the Russians have discarded this nonsense under 50 ton bull crap and has moved on with their T 14 and such is the trend world over, I don't see why you are making it look like Indian Army has to do it differently!!You say you are worried about the tanks being able to cross the Pakistani bridges, I say I'm worrying about our tankies getting reduced to poodles of mangled biomass, because that's exactly what will happen when the tank's armor get perforated and the spals/ shaped charge jet hit the munitions stored into the unarmored racks and the carousel inside the tin cans our Army had to buy !!Now do take not that I said 'had to' and not did, because I'm perfectly aware of the prevailing situation when the decision was made.
You say you are worried about mobility, I say I'm more worried about the survivability of the tanks, heck I'm more concerned about the tankies than the bloody tanks simply because you can replace a damaged tank on relatively short order by drawing one out of your war wastage reserve but crack crews are simply irreplaceable, as you can not make good crews in a short while, as you already know.

Now, is the Arjun a perfect tank in its current state - by no means!!Heck, I would dare say it's one of the more mediocre designs by compared to its contemporaries but it's crew safety features are still a lot better than the earlier generation Russian tanks which our army has got in abundance.

Oh and before I forget, why are you even so much worried about the bridges??I mean you really think the Pakistanis would be fool enough to keep them intact for you people to capture them and then just roll over into Lahore or whatever city/town it may be??!!So I fail to see the reason why you are so obsessed with those damn fuckingg bridges!!What do you think the mobile assault bridges are there for, or the engineering units for that matter??!!

PS - I'm indeed that prick Blood+ in case someone finds the similarities in writing pattern.

 

[hammer head]

Meanwhile, as per the latest reports, the upcoming M1A2SEPV3 is gonna hit 72 tons, even the Russians have discarded this nonsense under 50 ton bull crap and has moved on with their T 14 and such is the trend world over, I don't see why you are making it look like Indian Army has to do it differently!!You say you are worried about the tanks being able to cross the Pakistani bridges, I say I'm worrying about our tankies getting reduced to poodles of mangled biomass, because that's exactly what will happen when the tank's armor get perforated and the spals/ shaped charge jet hit the munitions stored into the unarmored racks and the carousel inside the tin cans our Army had to buy !!Now do take not that I said 'had to' and not did, because I'm perfectly aware of the prevailing situation when the decision was made.
You say you are worried about mobility, I say I'm more worried about the survivability of the tanks, heck I'm more concerned about the tankies than the bloody tanks simply because you can replace a damaged tank on relatively short order by drawing one out of your war wastage reserve but crack crews are simply irreplaceable, as you can not make good crews in a short while, as you already know.

Now, is the Arjun a perfect tank in its current state - by no means!!Heck, I would dare say it's one of the more mediocre designs by compared to its contemporaries but it's crew safety features are still a lot better than the earlier generation Russian tanks which our army has got in abundance.

Oh and before I forget, why are you even so much worried about the bridges??I mean you really think the Pakistanis would be fool enough to keep them intact for you people to capture them and then just roll over into Lahore or whatever city/town it may be??!!So I fail to see the reason why you are so obsessed with those damn fuckingg bridges!!What do you think the mobile assault bridges are there for, or the engineering units for that matter??!!

PS - I'm indeed that prick Blood+ in case someone finds the similarities in writing pattern.

My dear Brother first of all RELAX, I share mutual feelings if we speak about your afore mentioned post. Arjun any day and any time is BETTER then the TIN-90. But despite all the factors the bitter reality is that the entire ecosystem related to Armoured ops by Armoured Divs or RAPIDS which includes your Assalut Engineer Regiments their BLTS (current inventory) is tailored arount the Tin-90s.


"So I fail to see the reason why you are so obsessed with those damn fuckingg bridges!!What do you think the mobile assault bridges are there for, or the engineering units for that matter??!!"

your understanding on Mil matter is zero specially in respect to the Tactics involved in Desert warfare
NOTE : I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL CAPABILITY OF A TANK!

If you wish to discuss tactics and what is required for which all phase of attack which involves
1. crossing over your own DCBs
2. Contacting BOPS
3. Elimination of any ,LAT HAT element in enemy security and the
4. Approaching the Enemy DCB carrying out LEAN ON ops, BREAK IN OPS, BRIDGING AND THEN FINALLY BREAKING OUT

The armour requirement type and kind, The authority with which you threw the gyan owing to pakis iam wondering if you aware about thier Pattern nof ops and complete equipment profile beacuse your message simply shows you are not.

I am all for Arjuns !! I am a myself a Arjun fan Specially MK2. But iam also aware about the resources which are required to be pumped in for supporting an operation of a RAPID with all Arjuns. Do we have the money at this stage NO!! But yes a new version with better design to replace T-72s in future is required before the Army falls for Armata. And DRDO has to provide the Tank on Time.