Another Cheap Chinese Copy

Vladimir79

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Accepted, but India is not an US which have a superior weapons to counter those Chinese arms.
Accepted, but India has access to all of Russia's latest technology which can also use Amerikan technology from Israel.

Any other scenario which can suit your sensitivity?
Anything regarding Navy. IN wins thanks to advanced weapons from Russia, France, Israel and their own hard work. China is on their own and falling behind every day.

Please enough of this cattle class comments. You are simply backing every other generics of yours with some which doesn't even makes sense.
I haven't seen you offer anything better. I have lived under communist rule as well as Russian, British, and Iranian systems seeing how the media reflects defence reality. I only offer you a wider perspective than most. Communist regimes hide their realities to promote false reality. China is little different. They are paying for cutting off human rights.
 

p2prada

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I am not agreed with you. Just because you need a funding, it doesn't mean that you can speak whatever you want. Every defence deal that India is inking with foriegn nation is either mired by the technical delays or Corruption in the form of Bribe, unfortunetly this particuler glitches is completely offsetting the advantage of having a funding. Fact of the matter is that, China is more prominent enough to deploy its weapon system on the frontline. Heck we don't even have a proper infrastructure to do the same.
But, they always do.

True, but even if we manage to bring in enough funding, then only we are highly lacking in technical expertise. Do you know China had launched its first Nucler submarine many decades ago, so it speaks volume about the comperative aspect of both IN and PLAN.
So what? We had different priorities. Don't forget that China is a part of the UNSC. India is not. Don't forget that China has signed NPT and military nuclear technology is available for export to all P-5 members without objections.

Are you talking about Neutral waters, they are much in the process of hunting our naval assets in our own ocean.
And viceversa. We always send ships to the South China sea regularly.
 

Rage

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Honestly,Chinese J-7 is copied from MIG-21, and China has developed and refined the J-7 fighter now which is the best version in MIG-21 family

The J-7 is NOT the most advanced version of the Mig-21 family.


Our Mig-21's have been upgraded to the very potent (as acknolwedged by USAF pilots at the Nellis AFB) Mig 21-Bisons, extending their life by a good 15 years. They will however need to be replaced before they are fully phased out by 2017 (ergo the MRCA). The Bisons are armed with the phased-array, 8 target simultaneous tracking, X-band pulse-Doppler Phazotron Kopyo radar, integrated BVR capabilities and the active homing air-to-air missiles such as the R-77 / AA-12 Adder.


The other specs of the Mig-21 Bi’s are the Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, the very nice El-Op HUD, Infrared search and track system from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant, HOTAS controls, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. The DRDO has also developed an RWR code-named the ‘Tarang’, fitted on the Mig-21’s and an advanced version of which will be fitted on the Su-30MKI's.


In addition, The Indian Air Force (IAF) is now adding stealth modifications to an existing $340m programme to upgrade 125 of its MiG-21bis fighters to MiG-21-93 standard.


Further developments on the Mig-21 'Bisons' include:

-Helmet-mounted target designator
-A new stores management system
-An inertial navigation system
-A digital air data computer system
-New onboard radio command receiving equipment
-New flare dispensers (26 mm 120 rounds)
-New electric power supply systems, controlling and recording systems
-Two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays; and
-A new liquid air cooling system


No variant of the J-7: including the J-7MP returned to the China after barely two years of use with recommendations for 24 upgrades, including replacing the original GEC-Marconi Type 226 Skyranger radar with the Italian FIAR Grifo-7 radar, the J-7IIK that resulted from the conversion program to upgrade Chinese J-7's to the J-7MP/F-7MP/F-7P standard, the J-7III reverse-engineered copies of MiG-21MF "Fishbed-J," reportedly obtained from Egypt and fitted with the 'new' (very heavy, very low range and low MTBF) JL-7 fire-control radar, the J7E with its helmet mounted sight incompatible with its British GEC-Marconi radars, the F-7PG with its single-piece windshiled or the abandoned J-7FS and the abandoned J-7MF fully adhere to those standards.


But so far, the India can't even make or COPY the MIG-21 fighter all by themselves .

ROFl, you evidently know nothing of the DRDO or the HAL.

If India were to adopt China's example, it would merely copy and produce and wouldnt give a rat's behind. That would also lock it out of future license production. If India floods the market with Milan ripoffs, then there would be no Milan-ER in Indian service, not to mention a court case directed against the GOI. These are strategic decisions to take.


Maybe you want to say sth about the LCA. Well,tell me how can you guys develop some highly advanced aircraft without the ablity to produce some less advanced one. BTW, the China J-10 are already in service now, where is the LCA??

Maybe you want to say "sth" about the LCA? Let's hear you try, what do you know of the LCA development and program. And then let's hear you spout your knowledge about the J-10/FC-20 program, that remained in development for well over 20 years: "officially" since 1979, and unofficially since well before that, had its first testflight nineteen years later in 1998, and entered active duty 26 years later in 2005, none of which would have been possible were it not for Lavi's very generous design and canard configuration transfer .

And you talk about our "30-year program"?



High-tek can not be bought or borrowed. Because nobudy would give you the high-tek. You are on your own. R&D step by step,that is the only way.

But we are getting "high tek". And our "R&D step by step" is also well "on its way".
 

badguy2000

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The J-7 is NOT the most advanced version of the Mig-21 family.


Our Mig-21's have been upgraded to the very potent (as acknolwedged by USAF pilots at the Nellis AFB) Mig 21-Bisons, extending their life by a good 15 years. They will however need to be replaced before they are fully phased out by 2017 (ergo the MRCA). The Bisons are armed with the phased-array, 8 target simultaneous tracking, X-band pulse-Doppler Phazotron Kopyo radar, integrated BVR capabilities and the active homing air-to-air missiles such as the R-77 / AA-12 Adder.


The other specs of the Mig-21 Bi’s are the Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, the very nice El-Op HUD, Infrared search and track system from Russia's URALs optical-mechanical plant, HOTAS controls, new HF/VHF/UHF radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new electric power supply system. The DRDO has also developed an RWR code-named the ‘Tarang’, fitted on the Mig-21’s and an advanced version of which will be fitted on the Su-30MKI's.


In addition, The Indian Air Force (IAF) is now adding stealth modifications to an existing $340m programme to upgrade 125 of its MiG-21bis fighters to MiG-21-93 standard.


Further developments on the Mig-21 'Bisons' include:

-Helmet-mounted target designator
-A new stores management system
-An inertial navigation system
-A digital air data computer system
-New onboard radio command receiving equipment
-New flare dispensers (26 mm 120 rounds)
-New electric power supply systems, controlling and recording systems
-Two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays; and
-A new liquid air cooling system


No variant of the J-7: including the J-7MP returned to the China after barely two years of use with recommendations for 24 upgrades, including replacing the original GEC-Marconi Type 226 Skyranger radar with the Italian FIAR Grifo-7 radar, the J-7IIK that resulted from the conversion program to upgrade Chinese J-7's to the J-7MP/F-7MP/F-7P standard, the J-7III reverse-engineered copies of MiG-21MF "Fishbed-J," reportedly obtained from Egypt and fitted with the 'new' (very heavy, very low range and low MTBF) JL-7 fire-control radar, the J7E with its helmet mounted sight incompatible with its British GEC-Marconi radars, the F-7PG with its single-piece windshiled or the abandoned J-7FS and the abandoned J-7MF fully adhere to those standards.
hi,guy ,don't pretend to know much about new version of J7,when you don't know much about it.

1.
when CHina has mastered the tech of 4th G bird, there is no barrier of tech at all if chinese want to transplant last tech to J7...
once the leaders of PLA make the decison. PLA can fix mature tech your refered to J7 easily.....


2. the last version of J7 and Mig21 bis were upgraded according to different concept of disign...
J7 was upgraded to get better WVR at the expense of BVR.
Mig21 was upgraded to get BVR at the expense of WVR.

3.J7 gives up BVR because PLA has enough new birds with BVR capacity.so J7 needn't have BVR capacity.
Contary, IAF are short of bird and has to use outdated birds like Mig21 bis as BVR birds.
 

Rage

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hi,guy ,don't pretend to know much about new version of J7,when you don't know much about it.

Listen "bhains", don't pretend to know anything about our 'Mig-21 Bisons' when infact you really don't know DIDDLY SQUAT. And can only spout generalized tripe at me.


1.
when CHina has mastered the tech of 4th G bird, there is no barrier of tech at all if chinese want to transplant last tech to J7...
once the leaders of PLA make the decison. PLA can fix mature tech your refered to J7 easily.....

"If" and "when" the "leaders of the PLA" make that decision, we will come to it. Nor is our defence industry static or our upgrade programs stagnant. For now, your J-7's are NO MATCH for the Mig-21 Bi's.


2. the last version of J7 and Mig21 bis were upgraded according to different concept of disign...
J7 was upgraded to get better WVR at the expense of BVR.
Mig21 was upgraded to get BVR at the expense of WVR.

Again, learn some English before you dare respond to me.

I said:

"No variant of the J-7....fully adhere to those standards."

You telling me commonly known simplified generalities about the J7 vis-a-vis the Mig-21 and the Mig-21 vis-a-vis the J-7 doesn't mean JACK SQUAT. I am giving you cumulative specifics for why they are not.


3.J7 gives up BVR because PLA has enough new birds with BVR capacity.so J7 needn't have BVR capacity.
Contary, IAF are short of bird and has to use outdated birds like Mig21 bis as BVR birds.

The "Mig21-Bison" is by no stretch of the imagination an outdated bird. Only a fool would say something like that. At both the Cope India 2005 and the Red Flag 2008 exercises, U.S.A.F. pilots were stunned by the capabilities of the Mig-21 Bi, so much so that they rated it better than anything they faced, including the BVR-capable Sukhoi Su-30MKI, of which we have no shortage in the 230 of, and are planning to procure 50 more.
 

badguy2000

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Listen "bhains", don't pretend to know anything about our 'Mig-21 Bisons' when infact you really don't know DIDDLY SQUAT. And can only spout generalized tripe at me.





"If" and "when" the "leaders of the PLA" make that decision, we will come to it. Nor is our defence industry static or our upgrade programs stagnant. For now, your J-7's are NO MATCH for the Mig-21 Bi's.





Again, learn some English before you dare respond to me.

I said:

"No variant of the J-7....fully adhere to those standards."

You telling me commonly known simplified generalities about the J7 vis-a-vis the Mig-21 and the Mig-21 vis-a-vis the J-7 doesn't mean JACK SQUAT. I am giving you cumulative specifics for why they are not.





The "Mig21-Bison" is by no stretch of the imagination an outdated bird. Only a fool would say something like that. At both the Cope India 2005 and the Red Flag 2008 exercises, U.S.A.F. pilots were stunned by the capabilities of the Mig-21 Bi, so much so that they rated it better than anything they faced, including the BVR-capable Sukhoi Su-30MKI, of which we have no shortage in the 230 of, and are planning to procure 50 more.
here is a analysis of the upgrade plans of Mig21 . it was written in Chinese.

°Ù¶È_Õ½¶·»ú°É_ÖжíÒÔ¶ÔÃ׸ñ21µÄ¸Ä½ø¶Ô±È Ë*¸üÇ¿£¿[ͼ]

Russia, Israel and Chinese raised 3 upgrade plans of mig21/J7...
the 3 are Russia's Mig21-93( the upgrade version of Mig21bis),Israel's Mig21-2000 and CHinese J7E/G.


you have better use google tranlator to read it..:icon_salut:

I translated some key points of the article:

1. any upgrade of Mig21 can not overcome 3 shortcomings: "shortlegged,short airborne period and poor performance in low-mid altitude"

2. any promotion of one performance of Mig21 have to be at expense of other kinds of performance,because the armframe of Mig21 decides that mig21 can not have much upgrade potential.

3. Russia's upgrade plan of mig21-93 does't balance all performance as well as the upgrade plans of Israel's Mig21-2000 and CHinese J7E/G.
 

Rage

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here is a analysis of the upgrade plans of Mig21 . it was written in Chinese.

°Ù¶È_Õ½¶·»ú°É_ÖжíÒÔ¶ÔÃ׸ñ21µÄ¸Ä½ø¶Ô±È Ë*¸üÇ¿£¿[ͼ]

Russia, Israel and Chinese raised 3 upgrade plans of mig21/J7...
the 3 are Russia's Mig21-93( the upgrade version of Mig21bis),Israel's Mig21-2000 and CHinese J7E/G.


you have better use google tranlator to read it..:icon_salut:

"Plans" are precisely that- plans. By the time you upgrade your J-7MP/F-7MP/F-7P fishbeds to the Mig-93 standard, we will already have moved ahead with other "plans". The IAF Mig-21 Bisons are already a notch above the template 'Mig-21 Bison standard' because of several indigenous components outfitted on the aircraft. And the IAF is constantly upgrading its aircraft- from its Tupolev Tu-124 bombers to its Dassault Mirages to its Jaguar IM's/IS/Shamsher's - even though you do not hear of or are not aware of it.


In any case, I'd like you to translate that Chinese link for me so I can read it.


PM it to me and I'll put a more 'edible' version of the translation here on the board so it doesn't pollute the board with poor English.


I translated some key points of the article:

1. any upgrade of Mig21 can not overcome 3 shortcomings: "shortlegged,short airborne period and poor performance in low-mid altitude"

2. any promotion of one performance of Mig21 have to be at expense of other kinds of performance,because the armframe of Mig21 decides that mig21 can not have much upgrade potential.

3. Russia's upgrade plan of mig21-93 does't balance all performance as well as the upgrade plans of Israel's Mig21-2000 and CHinese J7E/G.

Send me the entire thing. I don't want your translated snippets that make contradistinct comments on an existing airframe and equally frivolous claims based on "upgrade plans" of the Israeli Mig21-2000 and the Chinese J7E/G.
 

smiling_scorpion

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Could this news have any relation to the Russians dropping or threatening to drop the Su-33 deal with the Chinese??? That is, fear of stolen technology.... Could they be fearing that the Chinese will also copy the Su-33 Aircraft Carrier based version and try to peddle that off???
maybe China is also not interesting in this type of flighter. Do you know the J11B?It is developed from SU-27/30,but a definitly different type compareing to its elders. it has new chinese radar and electrical equipments.and there are also many adjustment in both shape and engine.so it is much better than those two type of flighters. but Su-33 is just the Aircraft Carrier based version. so it is a really old one.and you know the Aircraft Carrier of Russia is not used the technology of cataplane,so part of SU-33 's adjustment must at cost of its flying property.I think China is much more tend to cataplane ,so Su-33 is not so useful for us now.I think.
 

ppgj

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1.any upgrade of Mig21 can not overcome 3 shortcomings: "shortlegged,short airborne period and poor performance in low-mid altitude"
1.both j7 and our mig-21 bisons are shortlegged and can not carry a good payload. sure you would agree with that. now how can a short legged a/c can get into wvr combat? they wont have enough fuel to last long. i am sure you know wvr consumes lot of fuel for evasive manoeuvrs, where do you get that fuel from? so what is smart? to make them BVR aircraft. that would be the smartest thing to do. you decide who is smarter? IAF OR PLAAF?

2.remember all your j7s have to take off from high altitude air bases. what does it mean? it means they won't be able to carry their full payload. if you want carry full payload you have to lose fuel tanks or vice-versa. the range reduces too.
contrastingly indian migs will take off from plains so they will carry full load. so you decide who has the advantage.

3.'cos they are short legged all your j7s have to take off from bases close to our border. considering the high altitudes bases they take off from they would be thirsting for fuel even before they intrude into india. even your air refuellers will have to operate deep inside your territory which means even if you want to refuel your j7s in air(if they have the refuel capacity ie.) all that fuel will be consumed in this to and fro action. and since they are only wvr a/c, as you said, they have to come close to fight our mig 21s. but we have bvr, your j7s will be blown out of the sky before they even engage with each other.
 

Vladimir79

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maybe China is also not interesting in this type of flighter. Do you know the J11B?It is developed from SU-27/30,but a definitly different type compareing to its elders. it has new chinese radar and electrical equipments.and there are also many adjustment in both shape and engine.so it is much better than those two type of flighters. but Su-33 is just the Aircraft Carrier based version. so it is a really old one.and you know the Aircraft Carrier of Russia is not used the technology of cataplane,so part of SU-33 's adjustment must at cost of its flying property.I think China is much more tend to cataplane ,so Su-33 is not so useful for us now.I think.
Considering it was PLAN that approached us about Su-33 it isn't that China doesn't want it. We won't be selling it after having everything we sell you trying to be copied. The whole point for us to sell China equipment is so that you will make follow on orders and we can both profit from a good relationship. What you have been doing is buying enough to try to reverse engineer what we sell and then break the contract and tell us to piss off.

China has already been cut off from our leading technology sales which we have instead directed towards India. Unlike China, India doesn't stab us in the back when we are trying to make them a tier 1 military. Now they have access to most of our leading edge systems and are 50:50 partners on some of our most important projects while China is left wallowing in the dust trying to figure out what has gone wrong with the poor copies of Soviet systems they REed.
 

badguy2000

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Considering it was PLAN that approached us about Su-33 it isn't that China doesn't want it. We won't be selling it after having everything we sell you trying to be copied. The whole point for us to sell China equipment is so that you will make follow on orders and we can both profit from a good relationship. What you have been doing is buying enough to try to reverse engineer what we sell and then break the contract and tell us to piss off.

China has already been cut off from our leading technology sales which we have instead directed towards India. Unlike China, India doesn't stab us in the back when we are trying to make them a tier 1 military. Now they have access to most of our leading edge systems and are 50:50 partners on some of our most important projects while China is left wallowing in the dust trying to figure out what has gone wrong with the poor copies of Soviet systems they REed.

even if Russia were not to sell any components to china, China still could "copy" all russian weapons.....

the weapon block you advocate can not have any effection on china ,but to decrease your income...:icon_salut:
 

SATISH

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even if Russia were not to sell any components to china, China still could "copy" all russian weapons.....

the weapon block you advocate can not have any effection on china ,but to decrease your income...:icon_salut:
Russians are Europe's largest oil supplier. They have enough money in form of oil. There are a lot of other countries that can buy from Russia. Russia has more trusted and proven weapon systems compared to China.Chinese weapon systems arent ranked among the best in the world. And you still rely on Russia for a lot of critical systems. So end of the day your weapons industry cannot survive without Russian help.

And if there are no Chinese orders then their production lines will be a bit free to accommodate other countries projects.

Or simple Russians will use Soviet style sales.
 

p2prada

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even if Russia were not to sell any components to china, China still could "copy" all russian weapons.....
China has only been copying technology that has been previously sold by the Soviets or Russia. If Russia stops selling components, then there will be nothing left for China to copy.

Why else do you think China has been asking only for 2 Su-33s. You cannot copy the Su-33 unless you already have one.

the weapon block you advocate can not have any effection on china ,but to decrease your income...:icon_salut:
We have been buying 50 years of Soviet technology in the last decade. We have also purchased a decade or more of American technology(Israeli) with just a little money. We have it easy mate. Not China. You have got nothing in return by copying till date.
 

badguy2000

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China has only been copying technology that has been previously sold by the Soviets or Russia. If Russia stops selling components, then there will be nothing left for China to copy.

Why else do you think China has been asking only for 2 Su-33s. You cannot copy the Su-33 unless you already have one.



We have been buying 50 years of Soviet technology in the last decade. We have also purchased a decade or more of American technology(Israeli) with just a little money. We have it easy mate. Not China. You have got nothing in return by copying till date.

guy, I happen to open a speical thread of chinese navy version of J11.

some guy has suggested that the prototype had rolled out....

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/as...type-navy-version-j11-roll-out.html#post75444
 

badguy2000

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Russians are Europe's largest oil supplier. They have enough money in form of oil. There are a lot of other countries that can buy from Russia. Russia has more trusted and proven weapon systems compared to China.Chinese weapon systems arent ranked among the best in the world. And you still rely on Russia for a lot of critical systems. So end of the day your weapons industry cannot survive without Russian help.

And if there are no Chinese orders then their production lines will be a bit free to accommodate other countries projects.

Or simple Russians will use Soviet style sales.
pls google " pipleline + oil+Russia+China+loan"

you can find how eager Russia in the cirsis are for chinese money...:stinker:

guy, the economy crisis is till there and Russia still has a uneasy time...
 

SATISH

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pls google " pipleline + oil+Russia+China+loan"

you can find how eager Russia in the cirsis are for chinese money...:stinker:

guy, the economy crisis is till there and Russia still has a uneasy time...
And you are paying for the oil there or else ONGC or RPCL will be there pumping out oil.
 

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