AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[agentperry]

It is fine. What it means is we will have the infrastructure to build these aircraft along with the expertise needed to test it.

HAL will get FGFA experience. ADA already has LCA and will work on the AMCA. ADE will work on Rustom and then AURA. So, there is nothing to lose here.

I agree that you are skeptical about ADA or ADE delivering on AMCA or Aura, but we need to work on something regardless of the earlier failures with Marut and LCA. We can say it is their second chance. What's important is these guys won't be working on aircraft from scratch, so at least the basic technologies will be worked out like fly by wire, composite materials, avionics etc while we get engine tech from both Kaveri programs. There is no point being bogged down with basic technologies in the future if we don't start these programs now.

If AMCA and AURA fail then we can always jump towards US(F-35), Russian (LMFI) and French-UK equivalents.

well we cant be assured of russians giving us critical technology as many international events are taking place which are drifting russia away from india or it can be said otherwise too.
moreover as far as i know through public notification hal is only overlooking 15% of the work in fgfa and this again brings a big boulder in the way of getting hi-tech experience of latest R&D in aerospace.

moreover the development in manned platform is a fruit hanging too high for drdo but unmanned platform can be fast tracked taking israelis help as israel dont have enough hands and we dont have enough to cannon fodder massive arsenal of chinese

 

[asianobserve]

Just buy 200 F-35s and develop pilotless fighters in partnership with US companies and Japan with lessons 10 years later...

 

[p2prada]

well we cant be assured of russians giving us critical technology as many international events are taking place which are drifting russia away from india or it can be said otherwise too.

Huh? Why? They did for the AL-31FP.

Nothing I see is drifting Russia away from India. As a matter of fact we are starting to behave like strategic partners again.

moreover as far as i know through public notification hal is only overlooking 15% of the work in fgfa and this again brings a big boulder in the way of getting hi-tech experience of latest R&D in aerospace.

25% actually. Apart from that testing will happen in India and that's a big boost to our industry than just designing stuff we cannot yet design on our own.

moreover the development in manned platform is a fruit hanging too high for drdo but unmanned platform can be fast tracked taking israelis help as israel dont have enough hands and we dont have enough to cannon fodder massive arsenal of chinese

We have more experience than the Israelis in the aerospace industry. They have more experience in electronics. We can continue doing what we are as of today and buy their technology through JVs like we are doing in the Arjun program.

 

[p2prada]

Just buy 200 F-35s and develop pilotless fighters in partnership with US companies and Japan with lessons 10 years later...

No thanks. There is no benefit to simply buying the F-35. A pilotless aircraft, we have one program of our own. If you are talking about a full fledged fighter UCAV, then nobody will have such a program for quite some time. We won't be a part of it even if some one did.

 

[asianobserve]

Oh well, don't blame me later. I already gave my unsolicited advice... :cool2:

 

[agentperry]

Huh? Why? They did for the AL-31FP.

Nothing I see is drifting Russia away from India. As a matter of fact we are starting to behave like strategic partners again.



25% actually. Apart from that testing will happen in India and that's a big boost to our industry than just designing stuff we cannot yet design on our own.



We have more experience than the Israelis in the aerospace industry. They have more experience in electronics. We can continue doing what we are as of today and buy their technology through JVs like we are doing in the Arjun program.

sir with due respect i would like to contradict you on your first point. there is no sign India and russia are behaving as strategic partners there are disputes in almost all sectors be it economics or international backing. it seems like russia is just looking for apt time to set free itself from India centric soviet approach. Its activities in pakistan and afghanistan is not having interest of india protected in any manner possible. apart from occasional lip service there are no signs of good relationship. moreover there are more instances where russian diplomats are quoting india's fault in not taking russia route in weapon upgrade and modernization.
India broke the tradition of taking spares from russia for its russian fleet of warplanes- upsetting russia for the first time and since then be it nuclear powerplant or sistema shyam telecom case(russia threatened india by saying they will drag GoI to international court of arbitration) its only free fall. though there are still few big ticket russian arm purchase and approximately 200 joint projects going on between india and russia but the soviet flavor and the original strategic partnership is not there. its only money prowess of indian govt that is holding back russia in its stable.

secondly 15%is what is publicly announced and i will stick to it.

thirdly give me proof of Indian advancement in unmanned platform being more than that of israeli. we are yet to induct some heavy duty reconn drones and stop our reliance on israeli drones. moreover we are even seeking israeli help in converting cheetak helicopter into unmanned helicopter

 

[p2prada]

sir with due respect i would like to contradict you on your first point. there is no sign India and russia are behaving as strategic partners there are disputes in almost all sectors be it economics or international backing. it seems like russia is just looking for apt time to set free itself from India centric soviet approach. Its activities in pakistan and afghanistan is not having interest of india protected in any manner possible. apart from occasional lip service there are no signs of good relationship. moreover there are more instances where russian diplomats are quoting india's fault in not taking russia route in weapon upgrade and modernization.

Huh? What spares are we getting from others. There are consumables that we can get from anywhere, but if we want the right spares we will always look to Russia. Apart from that we are creating an industry capable of building all spares in India itself.

Russia has a lot of interest in India interfering in Afghanistan.

Economics, there are very few policies where Russian and Indian interests diverge.

Why should India take Russian route in modernization? That doesn't make sense anyway. India never followed the Soviet model let alone the current non-existent Russian model. Heck India never followed any model, instead made our own by combining the western models.

I would really like examples of what you have stated here.

India broke the tradition of taking spares from russia for its russian fleet of warplanes- upsetting russia for the first time and since then be it nuclear powerplant or sistema shyam telecom case(russia threatened india by saying they will drag GoI to international court of arbitration) its only free fall. though there are still few big ticket russian arm purchase and approximately 200 joint projects going on between india and russia but the soviet flavor and the original strategic partnership is not there. its only money prowess of indian govt that is holding back russia in its stable.

The Soviet flavour never existed, we never had any proper join ventures with the Union. An Indo-Soviet relation was that of a master and a servant. That's why it was good at those times. India was poor and SU provided nearly free weapons.

Today's Russia-India relations are far more strategic than before. We are working on projects like Nuclear Submarines and Fifth gen aircraft. This kind of a partnership does not exist anywhere else. Even the US-UK relation in defence projects is one sided unlike Indo-Russian. Apart from that we have little we can provide for political support, unlike the Russian support to India through the UNSC. You don't hand over GLONASS military signals, or help develop Arihant and then say our strategic relationship is slipping.

I will repeat that, India did not break any kind of spares support from Russia, we still need spares from Russia. What you must be talking about is small items like connecting wires, transformers and rectifiers that can be sourced from anywhere and is not aircraft specific.

secondly 15%is what is publicly announced and i will stick to it.

Sorry, but I suppose you don't know that the current workshare for HAL is 25% and they may be looking to increase it further.

India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter

thirdly give me proof of Indian advancement in unmanned platform being more than that of israeli. we are yet to induct some heavy duty reconn drones and stop our reliance on israeli drones. moreover we are even seeking israeli help in converting cheetak helicopter into unmanned helicopter

You are mistaken with where I said we are ahead. I said we are ahead with respect to the aerospace industry. We have far more projects happening here compared to what the Israelis are doing. We have one fourth gen project, two fifth gen projects and have already started a fifth gen UCAV project. Israel has nothing in comparison apart from .

Where they are indeed ahead is in the electronics that go in the aircraft. Therefore the advantage in converting the Cheetah into an unmanned bird. If we attempt it on our own we will take much longer in comparison. We can work on these together with the Israelis instead of going it alone and help further our own major projects in the process. That's what's happening anyway, across all three services.

Just because we are taking help from EADS for the LCA does not mean we cannot work on AMCA. This is my point.

 

[ersakthivel]

that 5th gen program is not our own. its a cake we are having in a birthday party. we gave them money and they are giving us tech. there is no parity between russian R&D and HAL R&D. moreover AURA is being undertaken by drdo and not hal so when drdo dont even have co-ordination between its lab i think co-ordination between hal and drdo is like fooling ourselves. moreover the example of fraternity of drdo hal is very well showcased by tejas program

then how did the chinese have their cake and eat it? in the form of 3 5th gen prototypes?
Enough funding and infra backing,without moving of goal posts in midway, will produce results.

If country can have nuclear weapon,cryogenic engine,nuclear sub,super computer,satelites,moon missions ,then a mundane jet fighter is no big thing.

The only problem was we started late,released funding even later,did not provide enough infra,and changed requirements midway,in the LCA.

I see the same thing happening again with AMCA,from 2005 to 2011 ,all that is being done are 3 differrent ASRs,just 100 cr funding,and requirement for 130 kn engine,for which we don't have the tech ,and just 100 cr funding released so far.

With endless haggling between IAF and GTRE over SNECMA JV,resulting in A.K.Antony setting up a joint committee to clear the deal.The objection of the IAF to the deal is wierdest of all.The country should develop indigenous tech on it's own.Is it the mandate of IAF to oversee the tech development in GTRE.The deal was stuck on this point and negotiations are going on for 3 years.

IF the PLAF had done it all and the chinese government have done the same,do you think they will have 3 5th gen models flying now?

 

[agentperry]

Huh? What spares are we getting from others. There are consumables that we can get from anywhere, but if we want the right spares we will always look to Russia. Apart from that we are creating an industry capable of building all spares in India itself.

Russia has a lot of interest in India interfering in Afghanistan.

Economics, there are very few policies where Russian and Indian interests diverge.

Why should India take Russian route in modernization? That doesn't make sense anyway. India never followed the Soviet model let alone the current non-existent Russian model. Heck India never followed any model, instead made our own by combining the western models.

I would really like examples of what you have stated here.



The Soviet flavour never existed, we never had any proper join ventures with the Union. An Indo-Soviet relation was that of a master and a servant. That's why it was good at those times. India was poor and SU provided nearly free weapons.

Today's Russia-India relations are far more strategic than before. We are working on projects like Nuclear Submarines and Fifth gen aircraft. This kind of a partnership does not exist anywhere else. Even the US-UK relation in defence projects is one sided unlike Indo-Russian. Apart from that we have little we can provide for political support, unlike the Russian support to India through the UNSC. You don't hand over GLONASS military signals, or help develop Arihant and then say our strategic relationship is slipping.

I will repeat that, India did not break any kind of spares support from Russia, we still need spares from Russia. What you must be talking about is small items like connecting wires, transformers and rectifiers that can be sourced from anywhere and is not aircraft specific.



Sorry, but I suppose you don't know that the current workshare for HAL is 25% and they may be looking to increase it further.

India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter



You are mistaken with where I said we are ahead. I said we are ahead with respect to the aerospace industry. We have far more projects happening here compared to what the Israelis are doing. We have one fourth gen project, two fifth gen projects and have already started a fifth gen UCAV project. Israel has nothing in comparison apart from .

Where they are indeed ahead is in the electronics that go in the aircraft. Therefore the advantage in converting the Cheetah into an unmanned bird. If we attempt it on our own we will take much longer in comparison. We can work on these together with the Israelis instead of going it alone and help further our own major projects in the process. That's what's happening anyway, across all three services.

Just because we are taking help from EADS for the LCA does not mean we cannot work on AMCA. This is my point.

there was big tremors when india issued tender for spares of russian fleet of IAF. there was a big story that went on and even know if you follow russian news then not a single foreign services person of russia criticized india for moving away from russia.
though we are consumer and free to buy from anywhere but since coldwar era we are buying spares from original equipment manufacturer that is russia. russia openly going into funding many projects in pakistan is a open sign of departing- soviet russia and even russia never went to pakistan for any type of dealing but since india is exploring more of its option so are russians. they are trying to get indulged into af-pak as much as possible, one can say its anti-usa stance but then why they are not including india in it while western powers are including India in the settlement. why the russians are coming up with statements that af-pak-russia summit should not feature anything about india as india doesnt share a border- this is clear acceptance of pok as paki territory- you can search the articles and news on your own.

regarding projects many were launched atleast 5 years ago and few are as old as indira or rajiv regime in india- so they are just forwarding it. nuclear submarine prog is very old and russian participation is very well known i reactors and designing.

russian are not reliable when it comes to spares and their quality. this is also known and also the main reason why india went past russia to usa.

what you are saying is what i would have said 5 years ago but since then many things have changed. from ussr based fleet india is moving to western based fleet type .if you are bringing in su-30 then i would like to remind you that its a thing of 1990s and early 2000.

today russia is as close to india as usa is to india that is both are close but not intimate, together but not trusting.

regarding fgfa- as your own link specify india is developing its electronics but nowhere its allowed to interfere in designing of its airframe and engine and other important things, though hal couldnt design it as of now but the experience sharing is also not allowed by the russians. the interference by hal will be to modify the design to accommodate 2 seats in the cockpit instead of original 1 seat that is still a far cry seeing that till now hal dont have any thing comparable to sukhoi design bureau.

moreover i suggest you reading your own link to understand what russian are thinking of hal ( which when seen by americans was badly criticized and called a rusty workshop than an aircraft manufacturing unit with no sign of modern equipments)

Russia is sceptical about India's design ability in such a cutting edge project. In June 2008, Business Standard interviewed Vyacheslav Trubnikov, then Russia's ambassador to India, and an expert on Russia's defence industry. Contrasting the Su-30MKI with the Tejas LCA, Trubnikov pointed out snidely, "I know perfectly well the Russian ability. But I don't know what contribution the Indian side might make. So, one must ask the question to the Indian designers, to HAL"¦what is their claim for building a fighter of the fifth generation type? Either avionics, or engine? What might be India's contribution? To be absolutely frank, I don't know."

For long, the UAC argued that HAL could not expect a major role in the FGFA because Sukhoi had finished much of the work while New Delhi dithered about joining the project. UAC asserts that 5,000 Sukhoi engineers have worked for five years to design the FGFA. Such claims are hard to verify, but it is known that the Sukhoi Design Bureau has about 8,000 engineers, distributed between many different programmes.

^this is an extract from your link only.

moreover israelis have similar tech skills. this is indicated through the successful induction of israeli drones and radars and missiles in indian armed forces' arsenal.

and just like india is contributing in fgfa israel also partnered in f-35 with turkey britain and other nations

 

[agentperry]

then how did the chinese have their cake and eat it? in the form of 3 5th gen prototypes?
Enough funding and infra backing,without moving of goal posts in midway, will produce results.

If country can have nuclear weapon,cryogenic engine,nuclear sub,super computer,satelites,moon missions ,then a mundane jet fighter is no big thing.

The only problem was we started late,released funding even later,did not provide enough infra,and changed requirements midway,in the LCA.

I see the same thing happening again with AMCA,from 2005 to 2011 ,all that is being done are 3 differrent ASRs,just 100 cr funding,and requirement for 130 kn engine,for which we don't have the tech ,and just 100 cr funding released so far.

With endless haggling between IAF and GTRE over SNECMA JV,resulting in A.K.Antony setting up a joint committee to clear the deal.The objection of the IAF to the deal is wierdest of all.The country should develop indigenous tech on it's own.Is it the mandate of IAF to oversee the tech development in GTRE.The deal was stuck on this point and negotiations are going on for 3 years.

IF the PLAF had done it all and the chinese government have done the same,do you think they will have 3 5th gen models flying now?

see i fully agree with you that not drdo or iaf or mod but whole structure of india failed on lca and the same way we are going on with amca.
kaveri is there but not that powerful, funding is less, govt is not supportive. so what? in the end if we dont have a 5th gen fighter with us and enemy attacks us, then we might lose. then it wont be like see we have a bad red tape culture so give us our land back or start late or give us some reservation in battle zone.
in war they will be coming humiliating and then going back home laughing giving us scars like that in 1962.

 

[p2prada]

there was big tremors when india issued tender for spares of russian fleet of IAF. there was a big story that went on and even know if you follow russian news then not a single foreign services person of russia criticized india for moving away from russia.
though we are consumer and free to buy from anywhere but since coldwar era we are buying spares from original equipment manufacturer that is russia. russia openly going into funding many projects in pakistan is a open sign of departing- soviet russia and even russia never went to pakistan for any type of dealing but since india is exploring more of its option so are russians. they are trying to get indulged into af-pak as much as possible, one can say its anti-usa stance but then why they are not including india in it while western powers are including India in the settlement. why the russians are coming up with statements that af-pak-russia summit should not feature anything about india as india doesnt share a border- this is clear acceptance of pok as paki territory- you can search the articles and news on your own.

I know about that article and I am aware of what you are referring to. It is only specific to the MKI program. According to HAL's directors, in interviews, India is allowed to make or source spares from anywhere. It has nothing to do with moving away from Russian spares. The fact is the Russians are busy making parts for the MKI for another 8 years. This program is not like other smaller programs. So, there is no need for the Russians to supply the spares.

regarding projects many were launched atleast 5 years ago and few are as old as indira or rajiv regime in india- so they are just forwarding it. nuclear submarine prog is very old and russian participation is very well known i reactors and designing.

From what we can tell, the Arihant program began well after the fall of the Soviet Union. The construction of Arihant took 11 years, so you can estimate when they actually started development.

russian are not reliable when it comes to spares and their quality. this is also known and also the main reason why india went past russia to usa.

Doesn't make sense. The finished products of Americans systems is currently superior due to lack of Russian projects. The Su-30MKM beat the Super Hornet in the Malaysian tender because it was a superior platform and at the same time the lifecycle cost was 3 times lesser.

what you are saying is what i would have said 5 years ago but since then many things have changed. from ussr based fleet india is moving to western based fleet type .

I don't know what you are referring to. Fleet? Ships? We have always followed the western model.

if you are bringing in su-30 then i would like to remind you that its a thing of 1990s and early 2000.

So is the C-17, C-130, Apache, Chinook. All stuff from the 70s.

today russia is as close to india as usa is to india that is both are close but not intimate, together but not trusting.

Sorry but that is far from the truth. We own many oil blocks in Russia's east coast. We are planning oil and gas pipelines form CAR to India. We are planning on establishing a permanent military presence in Russian territory or Russian sphere of influence for our own gains.

Our relationship with Russia is on a different scale compared to the US.

regarding fgfa- as your own link specify india is developing its electronics but nowhere its allowed to interfere in designing of its airframe and engine and other important things, though hal couldnt design it as of now but the experience sharing is also not allowed by the russians. the interference by hal will be to modify the design to accommodate 2 seats in the cockpit instead of original 1 seat that is still a far cry seeing that till now hal dont have any thing comparable to sukhoi design bureau.

The problem is airframe is already developed. A twin seater would have seen Indian involvement, but even making the electronics is a big deal as compared to simply buying it from them.

moreover i suggest you reading your own link to understand what russian are thinking of hal ( which when seen by americans was badly criticized and called a rusty workshop than an aircraft manufacturing unit with no sign of modern equipments)

Not true. The Russians seemed to have decided HAL can even partner in the radar development.

Russia is sceptical about India's design ability in such a cutting edge project. In June 2008, Business Standard interviewed Vyacheslav Trubnikov, then Russia's ambassador to India, and an expert on Russia's defence industry. Contrasting the Su-30MKI with the Tejas LCA, Trubnikov pointed out snidely, "I know perfectly well the Russian ability. But I don't know what contribution the Indian side might make. So, one must ask the question to the Indian designers, to HAL"¦what is their claim for building a fighter of the fifth generation type? Either avionics, or engine? What might be India's contribution? To be absolutely frank, I don't know."

It was true in 2008. But this is 4 years hence.

For long, the UAC argued that HAL could not expect a major role in the FGFA because Sukhoi had finished much of the work while New Delhi dithered about joining the project. UAC asserts that 5,000 Sukhoi engineers have worked for five years to design the FGFA. Such claims are hard to verify, but it is known that the Sukhoi Design Bureau has about 8,000 engineers, distributed between many different programmes.

^this is an extract from your link only.

If this was the opposite then HAL's part would have been greater than 25%.

moreover israelis have similar tech skills. this is indicated through the successful induction of israeli drones and radars and missiles in indian armed forces' arsenal.

and just like india is contributing in fgfa israel also partnered in f-35 with turkey britain and other nations

Not even close. They can partner with who they want. We are walking the 5th gen path, they are not.

Israel is merely a security cooperation partner, they will install their own electronics on the F-35. UK, F-35's 2nd biggest partner has less than 20% work share and they are making a big deal out of it in the international aerospace scene.

 

[agentperry]

I know about that article and I am aware of what you are referring to. It is only specific to the MKI program. According to HAL's directors, in interviews, India is allowed to make or source spares from anywhere. It has nothing to do with moving away from Russian spares. The fact is the Russians are busy making parts for the MKI for another 8 years. This program is not like other smaller programs. So, there is no need for the Russians to supply the spares.



From what we can tell, the Arihant program began well after the fall of the Soviet Union. The construction of Arihant took 11 years, so you can estimate when they actually started development.



Doesn't make sense. The finished products of Americans systems is currently superior due to lack of Russian projects. The Su-30MKM beat the Super Hornet in the Malaysian tender because it was a superior platform and at the same time the lifecycle cost was 3 times lesser.



I don't know what you are referring to. Fleet? Ships? We have always followed the western model.



So is the C-17, C-130, Apache, Chinook. All stuff from the 70s.



Sorry but that is far from the truth. We own many oil blocks in Russia's east coast. We are planning oil and gas pipelines form CAR to India. We are planning on establishing a permanent military presence in Russian territory or Russian sphere of influence for our own gains.

Our relationship with Russia is on a different scale compared to the US.



The problem is airframe is already developed. A twin seater would have seen Indian involvement, but even making the electronics is a big deal as compared to simply buying it from them.



Not true. The Russians seemed to have decided HAL can even partner in the radar development.



It was true in 2008. But this is 4 years hence.



If this was the opposite then HAL's part would have been greater than 25%.



Not even close. They can partner with who they want. We are walking the 5th gen path, they are not.

Israel is merely a security cooperation partner, they will install their own electronics on the F-35. UK, F-35's 2nd biggest partner has less than 20% work share and they are making a big deal out of it in the international aerospace scene.

india now source entire russian products' spares from non russian companies be it migs or mils.
arihant prog started in 80s
airforce fleet i was talking about
i wasnt talking about the tech but the time of signing of deal- c17 chinook and all are coming to us NOW while sukhoi and migs came to us then
our plan of setting up of military base near russian territory is tajikstan base which is owned by russians and shared with india.
yes india partly owns few oil fields in russia but so does british shell ( cold war best buddies-sarcasm)
heck radar development- every indian radar is having foreign root- some are polish some are israeli. how can india help in radar. there wont be equal partnership where india can actually contribute though learning possiblity is immense.

since past 4 years lca deadline increased once again and it got new foreign engine. thats the development.

 

[ersakthivel]

the problem is by setting a much stiffer goal for ADA for AMCA ,we will continue to rely on foriegn countries for spares and complete systems forever.
Because the project will be delayed and product won't be contemproary.
WE have only fught short wars up untill now.China never had the force projection abilities across himalays then,neither had they world's cutting edge 5th gen planes produced in their country.
They have built rail link to himalayas,so that they can mobilize troops at short notice.
It is futile to expect the russian counterweight against CHINA as we stood exposed in 1962,when chinese used the cuban missile crisis between USSr and USA and attacked us.
USSR feigned neutrality, then we lost.
SO the order of the day is to reach 5th gen stealth production model by 2020,come what may.
5th gen's first priority is stealth not superlative specs as evidenced by 5th gen chinese planes, which don't have world beating engine tech on them as yet.

I do wish IAF have some idea about that,well and good if indian AMCA COMES BETTER THAN j-20.But we should always have a reasonable back up.
IF there is another long drawn out war between china and india ,I don't want Indian army chief and IAF chief standing at the ports,looking for the next ship from russia with spares for T-90s and PAKFA.
As the wartime wear and tear will be more pronounced,and chinese navy will be strong.So it will be an uphill possibility for RUSSIA to confront CHINA in future war with india.
That's why ARJUN and LCA and ,much more doable AMCA is very important for the defence of the country.

I do hope some saner sense prevails in army and IAF.It will be vitally important for india to produce at least 50 percent of india's warfighting machines totally here.
Ofcourse they can satisfy their fancy by importin the rest from the world.
Atleast ensure half the warfighting capability is totally indigenous.

The muddle on AMCA ASR is a sad indicator that it is not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[p2prada]

india now source entire russian products' spares from non russian companies be it migs or mils.

I would like proof of it. But I know this isn't the case. Nobody can provide spares for Russian aircraft apart from Russia, except for the MKI because of the ToT on the deal.

arihant prog started in 80s

Only on paper. Actual construction happened after Soviet Union fell. Nobody takes 30 years to just build a submarine, even by Indian standards. A lot of the previous research was for the reactor. But BARC designed their own reactor.

We can say the decision was made during the same time as Chakra was leased.

i wasnt talking about the tech but the time of signing of deal- c17 chinook and all are coming to us NOW while sukhoi and migs came to us then

Let's not forget FGFA, IL-78, Phalcon and IL-214. All big ticket deals, bigger than C-17, Chinook etc.

our plan of setting up of military base near russian territory is tajikstan base which is owned by russians and shared with india.

Yes, just like strategic partners would.

yes india partly owns few oil fields in russia but so does british shell ( cold war best buddies-sarcasm)

Yes and let's not forget their nuclear deal with India well before the Indo-US deal took off.

heck radar development- every indian radar is having foreign root- some are polish some are israeli. how can india help in radar. there wont be equal partnership where india can actually contribute though learning possiblity is immense.

Why not? Software development is possible too, apart from hardware development. Anyway it is too early for us to simply speculate. As time goes by we will know exactly what HAL is doing. The cockpit design is already ours.

since past 4 years lca deadline increased once again and it got new foreign engine. thats the development.

LCA is a joke now. Do you see me disputing that?

 

[asianobserve]

India should focus on integrating these key technologies:

1. AESA

2. HMDS

3. EOTS

4. BVR missiles

5. All aspect, lock after lunch short range missiles

6. Systems integration

If all these systems are implemented and integrated the aircraft design can take second fiddle as long as you plug in a reliable jet engine.

 

[p2prada]

AESA - not easy.

HMDS - Topsight I (Indo-French derivative of Topsight E) is a 2.5th gen HMDS. A 3rd gen HMDS could be a reality in the future. They want to remove a HUD.

EOTS - Don't know where it stands as of today.

BVR Missiles - We have 2 programs as of today, Astra Mk1 and Astra Mk2.

Astra Mk1,

Astra Mk2,

WVR Missile - I don't think we have such plans as of today. It is a much more complex system. Better to opt for Russian weapons in this case, the ones from PAKFA.

System Integration and Sensor fusion - Our DRDO-CABS AEWC is our first project with sensor fusion in mind. Obviously it will be present on AMCA.

The Kaveri K-10 would be the engine of choice. It is a Indo-French JV for a 5th gen engine.

Overall, the plan is to build the most advanced fighter of the time.

Livefist: EXCLUSIVE: Official Wishlist of Evolutionary Technologies for India's 5thGen AMCA

 

[asianobserve]

Of course those technologies that cannot be develop as of now should be sourced somewhere. The more important thing is the ability to integrate them into a cohesive and robust platform. Note that SAAB or the Europfighter Consortium did not develop all the key technologies in the Gripen and Eurofighter. The South Koreans are also taking this approach and getting mature technologies from US and elsewhere to fit in T-50 and I think the same effort is going to the development of their stealthy version. And I have no doubt in mind that in the future South Koreans can develop most if not all the key technologies that will go into their future aircrafts.

 

[ersakthivel]

Of course those technologies that cannot be develop as of now should be sourced somewhere. The more important thing is the ability to integrate them into a cohesive and robust platform. Note that SAAB or the Europfighter Consortium did not develop all the key technologies in the Gripen and Eurofighter. The South Koreans are also taking this approach and getting mature technologies from US and elsewhere to fit in T-50 and I think the same effort is going to the development of their stealthy version. And I have no doubt in mind that in the future South Koreans can develop most if not all the key technologies that will go into their future aircrafts.

That's what I said by implying that we should have a decent 5th gen stealth airframe with enough engine thrust as first priority
The wish list of technologies looks like laundry list.

Everyone knows the avionics and aerospace industry of india's present state..Instead of following the chinese model of 5th gen airframes with enough engine thrust first,

Iaf is once again sabotaging the emergence of indian aviation industry by putting demands like 130 kn engine,for which there is no scope of frutition in the comming 10 years.So if the amca is built with the requirement of 2x130 kn engine from the outset,it will be doomed and delayed from the inception.

Everyone concerned knows this.But strangely IAF doesn't.The only engine tech possible now is 2x90kn k-10 if at all the jv with snecma materializes.

So it will be prudent to go for a empty weight class of 9 tons with 3 ton internal fuel,2 ton BVR, (+1 ton of external wepon load if possible,at the maximum) weapon load, at the most .It should be tailored for air t air role specifically, and for strike with external weapons if possible.

Then only the amca will meet the stringent maneuvering specs that will be in vogue in future,as 5th gen x band stealth won't last forever.
It would sit below the weight class of F-35 to make it meaningful.

The IAF has PAKFA ,so why there is an insistence on another medium weight fighter?
If the AMCA is designed as the light weight twin engined LCA tejas aerodynamic design , with two canted tailfins in the empty weight class of around 9 tons will have no compromise in agility also.AS there is loads of flight test data available for the model,through the 2000 hours of flight tests.



This shoul be our realistic acievable goal and can be done by a decade.
But if you go for 2x130 kn engines and 16 to 18 ton empty weight ,no one can guarentee success at the outset.
It olud be developed as another separate program later.


And another caution-the website LIVEFIST has just said it as wishlist, nothing official about amca.The most important thing about AMCA is not MFDs and milbus standards,it is the the suitable thrust with suitable empty weights and weapon loads,which will make it a reality within a decade,not another pipedream and naval gazing project that can be kicked around like foot ball.

 

[ersakthivel]

this evolutionary approach foe AMCA has 100 percent chance of succeeding within a decade.Instead IAF ASR is suggesting a revolutionary approach with a quantum leap in the tech level of the country.I do wish all the best for the ASR ,but is it needed?

If you design AMCA as tejas evolution,
The shortfall in weapon load can be made up by additional number of fighters and a capable defence against J-20 and J-31 can be mounted.
We should make a smaller fighter with more power to spare for avionics,

If we design it s a 16 to 18 ton medium weight fighter and end up with lesser thrust engines and less than desired performance ,what is the use of having heavy weapon load and heavy fuel level for longer range and loitering time? When it comes to battle if it ends up with lower performance ,then what is the use?
The chinese J-20 and ,J-31 are bigger ,because their J-10 is also a heavier 9 ton empty weight fighter,SO if they succeed with their WS-10 engine development they can safely pot it to their J-20 and J-31,if their new engines don't achieve the thrust level,as they hav decades of experience in WS engine.

But our kaveri effort is focussed on a smaller engine for a lighter craft,so going for a 16 to 18 ton empty weight craft in amca with an aim of 130 kn engine can have unpleasant experience.

A lighter twin engine tejas variant in higher numbers will be a deternce enough for china.Since we are going to have PAKFA in combination,which is a heavy weight fighter.

Asea,ETOS,BVR,WVr can all be added later as and when they mature,

And less riskier option that can be finished in a decade.

 

[agentperry]

I would like proof of it. But I know this isn't the case. Nobody can provide spares for Russian aircraft apart from Russia, except for the MKI because of the ToT on the deal.



Only on paper. Actual construction happened after Soviet Union fell. Nobody takes 30 years to just build a submarine, even by Indian standards. A lot of the previous research was for the reactor. But BARC designed their own reactor.

We can say the decision was made during the same time as Chakra was leased.



Let's not forget FGFA, IL-78, Phalcon and IL-214. All big ticket deals, bigger than C-17, Chinook etc.



Yes, just like strategic partners would.



Yes and let's not forget their nuclear deal with India well before the Indo-US deal took off.



Why not? Software development is possible too, apart from hardware development. Anyway it is too early for us to simply speculate. As time goes by we will know exactly what HAL is doing. The cockpit design is already ours.



LCA is a joke now. Do you see me disputing that?

my point is that since india drifted away from russian sphere of influence to somewhat independent status or pro-western influence, India was offered many new things like better quality and on time delivery of defence products from france, usa etc. since ussr is now russia and 13 other countries many of the factories are scattered allover them and in any case one needs to go to them,
regarding proof IAF launched global tender for spares which broke half century old tradition of shouting to russia across himalayas for help.

i talked about lca because that joke indicate how big jokers its developer and manufacturer ie hal and drdo are.
regarding fgfa what is apparent is that hal is only fiddling with the indian version of fgfa and not the overall pak fa project. thats why there are different names because purely russian bred version will be designed by sukhoi but the indian version will be having 25% indian input just what you like what you said about work sharing.

right now india dont have an electronic industry. the govts plan to launch national electronics policy which aims to make indian electronic manufacturing industry a 400 billion $ electronic industry by 2015 might help but first let it roll out, then only we can see anything like software growth in india.

moreover india actually took that many years to develop nuclear submarine because beyond hull there is a nuclear reactor that actually makes a conventional submarine a nuclear submarine. i know how a nuclear reactor was made in disguise and what help russians provided but wont divulge here.( through personal contacts). so ok for public consumption one can say the actual production time was this much only and that much only but it actually took hell lot of time. if you were a mechanical engineer or a production engg then you would have known what difficult thing is welding submarine hull.