AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Gerlat]

Oh no no. Not in post-stall. amount of aerodynamics alow you to achieve 90° AoA & recover to level flight at post stall.



Literally everyone here already knows that^, we're talking about upcoming Mark1 for now.

But what you've shared is all outdated info... That ^above "news" is old bullshit trying to imply AMCA is dependent on FGFA project when we were on the verge of pulling out (that article is on motherfucking Russia Beyond!!!..) Russia is not part of anything anymore. AMCA Mark2 110kN-class engine with TVC is joint venture involving RR only.

And Mark1 is definitely 5th gen tech wise (compared to Teddy or KF-X & TFX, which are proper 4.5th gen) but the platform is without supercruise & supermaneuverability... That's why I used F-22 example! To explain the platform design & tech standard should be looked at differently. Not to start an offtopic F22-vs-F35 discussion

News maybe old but highly relevant.
Considering your knowledge-
In simple - AMCA mk1 comes without TVC and it's a 4.5gen. [don't make unwanted comparison, AMCA pgm and kfx pgm are different, it's easier to compare AMCA pgm with f22, f2, fgfa, j20 etc, kfx is better than turkey pgm, only advantage is involvement of on.
I think you are dreaming [uncertainty] becz I'm unable to find any information about official statements about jv between rr or any incase of 5.5 engine tech.
Kf x is a 4.5gen developing with the help of LM [know how/why- means reduced time for development] and in later stage kf x mk2 with 5gen capability.
Difference of AMCA and kfx similar [not same] to LCA and t50. LM totally hate a competition for f35.
Lastly- kilmov is not directly involved in fgfa pgm and ada is not a part of it [one of the reason why fgfa collapsed]. Bringing fgfa is irrelevant and not going to prove anything.

 

[Bleh]

by that standards f35 is also 4.5g(with no super manuverability and no supercruise)

Your not incorrect. Noone here is for that matter! @Gerlat @Ajax01

The issue is F-22 being the trend setter & being considered as 5th gen benchmark!

F-35 is much like AMCA... Definitely a 5th gen if compared to the likes of KFX, TFX etc. with fully stealthy internal-weapons mode.

But at the same time look at this from another point of view. Supermaneuverability is a 4.5th gen feature. So if our 5th gen fighter shan't have it that remains a hole, no?.. Not having supercruise will be another gap... J-20 on the other hand is not truely stealthy... But again even the AMCA Mark1 is probably going to have 6th gen stuff like EW drones & unmanned wingman, DIRCM etc. at some point.


So bottomline, it's not set in stone!.. Depends of individual definitions & doctrine.

 

[SARTHAK]

News maybe old but highly relevant.
Considering your knowledge-
In simple - AMCA mk1 comes without TVC and it's a 4.5gen. [don't make unwanted comparison, AMCA pgm and kfx pgm are different, it's easier to compare AMCA pgm with f22, f2, fgfa, j20 etc, kfx is better than turkey pgm, only advantage is involvement of on.
I think you are dreaming [uncertainty] becz I'm unable to find any information about official statements about jv between rr or any incase of 5.5 engine tech.
Kf x is a 4.5gen developing with the help of LM [know how/why- means reduced time for development] and in later stage kf x mk2 with 5gen capability.
Difference of AMCA and kfx similar [not same] to LCA and t50. LM totally hate a competition for f35.
Lastly- kilmov is not directly involved in fgfa pgm and ada is not a part of it [one of the reason why fgfa collapsed]. Bringing fgfa is irrelevant and not going to prove anything.

emphasis too much on stealth can bring the same results as f35 did for usaf and also we would not achieve the economies of scale advantage that us industrial complex provides,i think we should go the su 57 way that is more of an anti stealth machine with sensors & situational awareness better or equal to western fighters

the way tejas mk2 sensors r planned or developed i am satisfied ,only conformal sensors are to be developed and drdo has started work on them,stealth shaped body is not a big challenge

 

[Gerlat]

@Gerlat did you not read the link you yourself shared!?.. What I said is in that context only.



You're debunking claims noone made!

Tech-wise the AMCA Mark1 is best described as bordering on 5th gen (compared to Teddy or KF-X & TFX, which are proper 4.5th+ gen)... as the platform is without supercruise & supermaneuverability.
That's why I used F-22 as an example! To explain the platform design & tech standard should be looked at differently... Not to praise quadrilateral enhaust shape.

And don't use DD as you only source of info. He's great, but has a tendency to omit & overlook other factors to make his point on the video topic... In engineering or R&D it can rarely be said so simply as "iT wAs A fAilUre!"
Hiding round nozzles has obvious advantages in enhancing low-observability & US rigorously tested multiple versions to finally settle on that... For the same reason that shaping is being chosen for Tempest;

I never said you are wrong, but drdo developing TVC. Also AMCA mk2- yet to fly. ADA considering TVC for AMCA, and I'm not talking science or engg.
I'm only reflecting what ada/iaf personal said, ie- AMCA mk1, 4.5gen, mk2- 5.5gen. Bottom line - AMCA is under development.
I'm not interested in irrelevant comparison, ie kfx vs AMCA, but interested in AMCA vs f3, f22/f35 hybrids.

 

[SARTHAK]

Your not incorrect. Noone here is for that matter! @Gerlat @Ajax01

The issue is F-22 being the trend setter & being considered as 5th gen benchmark!

F-35 is much like AMCA... Definitely a 5th gen if compared to the likes of KFX, TFX etc. with fully stealthy internal-weapons mode.

But at the same time look at this from another point of view. Supermaneuverability is a 4.5th gen feature. So if our 5th gen fighter shan't have it that remains a hole, no?.. Not having supercruise will be another gap... J-20 on the other hand is not truely stealthy... But again even the AMCA Mark1 is probably going to have 6th gen stuff like EW drones & unmanned wingman, DIRCM etc. at some point.


So bottomline, it's not set in stone!.. Depends of individual definitions & doctrine.

"5th gen benchmark" like statements are good in theory,in reality the utility and cost to benefit ratio is the most important thing considering the budget and airforce requirement tvc feels low priority,supercuise is very impotant and it is the only aspect which amca lacks apart from side bays(i still hope in aero india 2022 side bays will come up),the "trend setting" thing also came up with f35 but now you can see the result ,i just want to say foloowing usaf blindly is wrong

 

[vasusuman]

South Korean are very methodological. Look at their submarine development . They did that in 3 steps form German tech to now complete Korean submarine which they are building and exporting.

They will do the same gradual development in aerospace.
Trainer lift with Lockheed then 4.5 gen with Lockheed assistance and finally their own 5th gen bird in 3 rd step.

Plus they have the greatest commercial shipbuilding industry now - most complex LNG ships and most massive Containerships built here, with high level of automation n innovation

 

[Gerlat]

emphasis too much on stealth can bring the same results as f35 did for usaf and also we would not achieve the economies of scale advantage that us industrial complex provides,i think we should go the su 57 way that is more of an anti stealth machine with sensors & situational awareness better or equal to western fighters

the way tejas mk2 sensors r planned or developed i am satisfied ,only conformal sensors are to be developed and drdo has started work on them,stealth shaped body is not a big challenge

Stealth is problem to f22 and b2 and not a problem to f35. Stealth technology of f35 is very mature and easier to maintain than previous ones. Su57 main issues were money, low stealth, engine etc.
AMCA, f22, f35, su57 plus, j20plus,kfx 5gen, f3 all were fifth generation but not the same.
According to ADA, AMCA may have technologies similar to f35, f3 plus common elements of rest, right now it's just statements and I don't have any access to those technologies, and I hope this form can provide a little bit of those.
LCA is a great platform, easy to fly, having a great radar, hmd etc.

 

[Ghost hale]

Since we all are so interested in Super maneuverability, interesting read.

Yes, France 'Shot Down' an American F-22 Stealth Fighter

Bad news for America's top dogfighter.

nationalinterest.org

 

[SavageKing456]

Since we got advanced AMCA design our focus should be to incorporate one of the best sensors and make it a killing machine

 

[SARTHAK]

Stealth is problem to f22 and b2 and not a problem to f35. Stealth technology of f35 is very mature and easier to maintain than previous ones. Su57 main issues were money, low stealth, engine etc.
AMCA, f22, f35, su57 plus, j20plus,kfx 5gen, f3 all were fifth generation but not the same.
According to ADA, AMCA may have technologies similar to f35, f3 plus common elements of rest, right now it's just statements and I don't have any access to those technologies, and I hope this form can provide a little bit of those.
LCA is a great platform, easy to fly, having a great radar, hmd etc.

Stealth technology of f35 is very mature and easier to maintain--- do you know why had to sent its fighters back to us,why they had to build air conditioned hangers for f35
main issue with su 57 was tot as russians were not allowing indian scientist near it, stealth is inferiror to f35 but not by huge margin new ,production model is evident.
main plus point of f35(other than stealth) is ew,we cannot replicate it overnight but we can make something ike spectra(spectra is second only to f35)

das is already in works i told in prvs posts
Gan jammers and low band jammers are being made for mk2 tejas itself
sensor fusion is there,net centri cwarfare is there,mfd glass cockpit is there
so whts left only stealthy body

 

[SARTHAK]

Since we all are so interested in Super maneuverability, interesting read.

Yes, France 'Shot Down' an American F-22 Stealth Fighter

Bad news for America's top dogfighter.

nationalinterest.org

this is what i was explaining tvc is eqully bad and equally good ts upto u what u want
bad--
1)huge cost to maintain
2)tricky to master (can be sitting duck if pilot uses it excessively)
good
1)super duper manuverability btw, see it


a plane without tvc does it as good as tvc

 

[Bleh]

Since we all are so interested in Super maneuverability, interesting read.

Yes, France 'Shot Down' an American F-22 Stealth Fighter

Bad news for America's top dogfighter.

nationalinterest.org

Rafale is a near match tho... Supermaneuverability is an advantage you'd rather have than not, doesn't guarantee anything ofcourse.

this is what i was explaining tvc is eqully bad and equally good ts upto u what u want
bad--
1)huge cost to maintain
2)tricky to master (can be sitting duck if pilot uses it excessively)
good
1)super duper manuverability btw, see it
a plane without tvc does it as good as tvc

Good display. But you wouldn't find it so impressive if you knew about the TVC maneuvering better.

See, flight controls can only take you so far... Plus TVC allows post stall nose-pointing & recovery. Try to understand the technicalities. Best example would be how the F-18 here has to do a loop to achieve the 45° AoA for pirouette maneuvre. TVC jets won't need that, meaning this is for show only. Can't be practically used in combat. And forget doing other maneuvers like the Herbst, where you are completely dependent on thrust vectoring to change your nose direction.

And no, compared to the engine maintenance just some TVC mechanism won't make it significantly more costly.

 

[Karthi]

The main problem of our members is they are thinking in a wrong way . Whenever we encounter with a stealth Aircraft it doesn't mean there is a total Radio silence, we may get faded contacts that immediately alert the enemy air defence Systems and Aircraft's . RCS also depends on the amount reflection , if we point our Radar beam (Staring) in the direction of Stealth Aircraft chances of detection is high . We can also direct IRST in the same direction , AWACS and other ground Radars can also be directed in the direction as multi Static Radar and the detection can be done. Modern Radars can track liw RCS targets at greater distances as an example our LRTR can track 0.1 m target at 1500 Km .

Another thing is orientation of Aircraft Aircraft is most Stealthy from the front , from rear or side ways , from above or below its RCS is far too higher no wonder MKIs detected J20 . And modern aircrafts networked together to find a target as a multi Static Radar ( triangulation) three Su 35 together can detect and track F22 from 40 -50 kms . If we have a powerful AESA Radar we can detect F22 from even longer . If f22 is in side ways can detect from even longer range , IRST and other E I sites can help further .


And for TVC every one is speaking like TVC is special part in an Aircraft , TVC working along with other control surfaces , in an actual Combat they won't do any crazy manuvers but help to achieve better turns and impossible cuts and accelerations . That will help to break Radar locks to evade BVR missiles .

Thread is getting away from AMCA

 

[Ghost hale]

Rafale is a near match tho... Supermaneuverability is an advantage you'd rather have than not, doesn't guarantee anything ofcourse.

I agree. The point i wanted to highlight is each 5th gen have some capabilities and some missing. But that doesn't make it 4.5 or 4 Gen fighter. The main feature of 5th gen is stealth. Similarly 6th Gen is more of optionally manned and DEW. So, I don't think f-35 and AMCA for that say is 4.5 gen. I think u said that as u make too many point all jumbled together makes it hard to remember train of thoughts. If u didn't claimed that than no issue.

 

[Bleh]

I agree. The point i wanted to highlight is each 5th gen have some capabilities and some missing. But that doesn't make it 4.5 or 4 Gen fighter. The main feature of 5th gen is stealth. Similarly 6th Gen is more of optionally manned and DEW. So, I don't think f-35 and AMCA for that say is 4.5 gen. I think u said that as u make too many point all jumbled together. If u didn't claimed that than no issue.

No, my bad... Was replying to multiple people.

As of now AMCA Mark1 probably (so let's not get into that) isn't meant for WVR dogfigh. If so, then the absence supermaneuverability won't matter much.
Supercruise would be good to have though, but the platform really looks crazy good aerodynamically (which also has got some people complaining about the rear visibility)!.. I won't be surprised if it can hold supersonic speed in internal-only config after an acceleration with afterburner.

 

[SARTHAK]

The main problem of our members is they are thinking in a wrong way . Whenever we encounter with a stealth Aircraft it doesn't mean there is a total Radio silence, we may get faded contacts that immediately alert the enemy air defence Systems and Aircraft's . RCS also depends on the amount reflection , if we point our Radar beam (Staring) in the direction of Stealth Aircraft chances of detection is high . We can also direct IRST in the same direction , AWACS and other ground Radars can also be directed in the direction as multi Static Radar and the detection can be done. Modern Radars can track liw RCS targets at greater distances as an example our LRTR can track 0.1 m target at 1500 Km .

Another thing is orientation of Aircraft Aircraft is most Stealthy from the front , from rear or side ways , from above or below its RCS is far too higher no wonder MKIs detected J20 . And modern aircrafts networked together to find a target as a multi Static Radar ( triangulation) three Su 35 together can detect and track F22 from 40 -50 kms . If we have a powerful AESA Radar we can detect F22 from even longer . If f22 is in side ways can detect from even longer range , IRST and other E I sites can help further .


And for TVC every one is speaking like TVC is special part in an Aircraft , TVC working along with other control surfaces , in an actual Combat they won't do any crazy manuvers but help to achieve better turns and impossible cuts and accelerations . That will help to break Radar locks to evade BVR missiles .

Thread is getting away from AMCA

btw the phenomenon you explained about stealth detection is very useful with eodas like system and as you said narrow beam of radar could with irst(eodas)would work well

 

[SARTHAK]

No, my bad... Was replying to multiple people.

As of now AMCA Mark1 probably (so let's not get into that) isn't meant for WVR dogfigh. If so, then the absence supermaneuverability won't matter much.
Supercruise would be good to have though, but the platform really looks crazy good aerodynamically (which also has got some people complaining about the rear visibility)!.. I won't be surprised if it can hold supersonic speed in internal-only config after an acceleration with afterburner.

btw can't we hve a swash plate arrangement for radar as a stop gap for conformal arrays

 

[Gerlat]

Stealth technology of f35 is very mature and easier to maintain--- do you know why had to sent its fighters back to us,why they had to build air conditioned hangers for f35
main issue with su 57 was tot as russians were not allowing indian scientist near it, stealth is inferiror to f35 but not by huge margin new ,production model is evident.
main plus point of f35(other than stealth) is ew,we cannot replicate it overnight but we can make something ike spectra(spectra is second only to f35)

das is already in works i told in prvs posts
Gan jammers and low band jammers are being made for mk2 tejas itself
sensor fusion is there,net centri cwarfare is there,mfd glass cockpit is there
so whts left only stealthy body

Lockheed declares F-35 stealth coating ‘rock solid’

Lockheed Martin has defended both the stealth coatings of the F-35A and its efforts to boost the supply of spare parts, as it eyes the conclusion of three fighter campaigns in 2020 and lower operating costs.

www.flightglobal.com

_---___-----__-----------------
READ PROPERLY.
- than previous gen. Previous generations means- f22, b2, f114, sr71. Also f35 having a lots of problems including engine.
- according to you flight global liars, LM, IAF etc also. [ According to iaf , their bases having capability for maintaining 72 rafale]. According to your theory rafale is bad fighter compared to MiG21.
I'm not saying about fgfa, but su57. I consider your statement if iaf having su57.
Buddy I thought LCA having ew, maws etc seen article 1.5 decade old, and IAF saying opposite. Now I'm giving more importance to IAF official statement. By the way, I like those posts.
Bottom line - India [ADA] intrested in TVC, some articles says - there is a jv with Russian. [Old news, may be you/others can provide current status].
For AMCA, lot of fifths generation technologies is there, including ew suite for defence/offensive capability, new helmet with advanced features, advanced and sensitive sensors, advanced humans support measure, communication and avonics etc plus engine and fly-by-optics, ai/IQ etc. I'm looking forward for more of your post, not unnecessary comments.
Also I read somewhere, availablity rate of f22 was 26/27% or something.

 

[SARTHAK]

Lockheed declares F-35 stealth coating ‘rock solid’

Lockheed Martin has defended both the stealth coatings of the F-35A and its efforts to boost the supply of spare parts, as it eyes the conclusion of three fighter campaigns in 2020 and lower operating costs.

www.flightglobal.com

_---___-----__-----------------
READ PROPERLY.
- than previous gen. Previous generations means- f22, b2, f114, sr71. Also f35 having a lots of problems including engine.
- according to you flight global liars, LM, IAF etc also. [ According to iaf , their bases having capability for maintaining 72 rafale]. According to your theory rafale is bad fighter compared to MiG21.
I'm not saying about fgfa, but su57. I consider your statement if iaf having su57.
Buddy I thought LCA having ew, maws etc seen article 1.5 decade old, and IAF saying opposite. Now I'm giving more importance to IAF official statement. By the way, I like those posts.
Bottom line - India [ADA] intrested in TVC, some articles says - there is a jv with Russian. [Old news, may be you/others can provide current status].
For AMCA, lot of fifths generation technologies is there, including ew suite for defence/offensive capability, new helmet with advanced features, advanced and sensitive sensors, advanced humans support measure, communication and avonics etc plus engine and fly-by-optics, ai/IQ etc. I'm looking forward for more of your post, not unnecessary comments.
Also I read somewhere, availablity rate of f22 was 26/27% or something.

ok first of all how did rafale ,iaf and hangers come into context can u explain?

 

[Bleh]

btw can't we hve a swash plate arrangement for radar as a stop gap for conformal arrays

Now this is something you cannot possibly find a reliable answer to in a defence forum