AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Dark Sorrow]

>>1 Which company is more capable technology-wise?
While Safran owns whole of M-88, RR is only part contributor to EJ200-
View attachment 110571

View attachment 110572
.. so if I have to risk a guess I'd say Safran is better placed.

>>2 Up to what level will each company be prepared to transfer its technology?
RR wins on this count purely based on their repeated public proclamations- of full IP transfer.

>>3 What will co-development of an engine cost with each company?
That's what the feasibility studies are all about I'm guessing- to get a time & cost estimate.

>>4 Which company is more likely to actually transfer the technology promised?
Hard to tell since there is no precedent.

>>About the Rafale offset, does Safran look like it is transferring technology in the spirit of the contract? If yes, that is reassuring. If not, that is worrying for a future contract for a new fast jet engine.

The carrot for Safran/French is a substantial follow on order for Rafales- & with offsets to fulfil they are better placed to offer a cheaper deal (net payout to Safran is cost-offset). The stick is no or curtailed follow-on order. Not sure what leverage we have with the Brits/RR.

Out of above only MTU Aero Engines is important as they control metallurgy and manufacturing process for compressor, the only area where we are lacking.

 

[Spitfire9]

The big 4 doubtless are constantly doing the R&D to place themselves at a very advanced technological level. While they could all produce a perfectly good engine using technology they mastered 10 or 20 years ago or more (and transfer such IP), it seems to me that the objective ideally would be for a new Indian+foreign partner engine to incorporate as much newer technology as possible. It will be interesting to hear what RR/Safran are proposing technology-wise as a 110kN+ AMCA engine.

 

[MonaLazy]

The RR RB-211 story.


Key takeaway - the difference between an under performing engine and a runaway success is very minute. Give it the right people and time.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

We should go with SAFRAN , RR and GE are unreliable.
Plus tejas can fly with safran engines also

Both. Safran has to do offsets to the tune of 1B. I mean it's indirectly India's right. We can't let it go waste.

India would need 3 kinds of jet engine. One is 90KN one, another is 110kn+ engine and one heavy at 140-150kn one if in future we wish for single engine 5th gen.

90kn with Saffron and 110+KN with RR is the ideal way to go. But it will be costly. 2 different engine programs with different supply chain.

 

[Lonewolf]

Both. Safran has to do offsets to the tune of 1B. I mean it's indirectly India's right. We can't let it go waste.

India would need 3 kinds of jet engine. One is 90KN one, another is 110kn+ engine and one heavy at 140-150kn one if in future we wish for single engine 5th gen.

90kn with Saffron and 110+KN with RR is the ideal way to go. But it will be costly. 2 different engine programs with different supply chain.

Re one will have about 20 percent growth potential ,so it will reach Upto 140 kn .

What we need will be a clean sheet 200 kn engine for a twin engine high performance flanker replacement of 6 th gen or above .

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Re one will have about 20 percent growth potential ,so it will reach Upto 140 kn .

What we need will be a clean sheet 200 kn engine for a twin engine high performance flanker replacement of 6 th gen or above .

Except can't go to 200kn without the first 2. anyway even for the 2 engines, we would require 10B at the minimum to be invested in a very short span of 10 years. Whether the govt has budget for it, no one can answer nor blame them.

 

[MonaLazy]

90kn with Saffron and 110+KN with RR is the ideal

Not at all feasible or even required!

Firstly, nowhere else in the world has anyone coerced jet engine "help" against money- its all hard fought or stolen or poaching talent.

Secondly, once you have the metallurgy, testing facilities, certification process and flying test beds in place you can scale up or down by adding or removing stages, substitute better materials to vary power- don't need RR & Safran to do it for us. It is always a whole family of engines eg Japanese IHI's XF-3/5/9, or American GE404 > GE414 > planned EPE or French M88-1/2/3/4.

Thirdly, we are looking for EPE/EJ2x0 stage 2/M88-4 class engine with 110KN output in the form factor (dimensions) of a GE414- that engine does not exist anywhere in the world today (mentioned engines are not realised yet)- all higher output engines have more stages and hence bigger in size- so by itself the 110KN engine will be tech marvel worthy of being called a world-beater.

Some specs:
~4m long
F404 48.9/78.7kN 3.9m
F414 57.8/97.9kN 3.91m
EJ200 60/90kN 3.99m
M88-2 50/75kN 3.54m
F414EPE 68/116kN 3.91m (assuming 18% jump in both dry & wet thrust)

~5m long (more power but with additional stages compared to above)
F135-PW-100 128/191kN 5.59m
F119-PW-100 116/156kN 5.16m
XF-9 107.9/147.1kN 4.8m
AL-31F 74.6/122.6kN 4.945m

So before we even think of a 200kN engine- let's nail our desi 4m EPE. The same material science with the right design incorporating additional stages will get us a 5m 200kN in the natural flow of things. Also in 20 years from now adaptive cycle engines may be mainstream, whereas in 40 years electric drive may be cutting edge. We have to catch up & innovate in-house in step with the rest of the world without looking out to consultants to bail us out every time.

Hopefully once we master the tech for a 110KN engine will we be able to innovate from there. We already have a turboshaft partnership with Safran for Ardiden 1H1 (Dhruv) / 1U (LUH) engines- will we again look at them for IMRH or is that turboshaft being developed in house?

Also sadly there are no "rights" in Safran offsets. Nowhere mentioned that they part with jet engine tech- if it is acceptable to GoI/babus they might just install paper mache models of M-88 in all major intersections of our cities, claim an expenditure of ₹2500 crs and be done with it!

 

[Spitfire9]

Not at all feasible or even required!

Firstly, nowhere else in the world has anyone coerced jet engine "help" against money- its all hard fought or stolen or poaching talent.

Secondly, once you have the metallurgy, testing facilities, certification process and flying test beds in place you can scale up or down by adding or removing stages, substitute better materials to vary power- don't need RR & Safran to do it for us. It is always a whole family of engines eg Japanese IHI's XF-3/5/9, or American GE404 > GE414 > planned EPE or French M88-1/2/3/4.

Thirdly, we are looking for EPE/EJ2x0 stage 2/M88-4 class engine with 110KN output in the form factor (dimensions) of a GE414- that engine does not exist anywhere in the world today (mentioned engines are not realised yet)- all higher output engines have more stages and hence bigger in size- so by itself the 110KN engine will be tech marvel worthy of being called a world-beater.

Some specs:
~4m long
F404 48.9/78.7kN 3.9m
F414 57.8/97.9kN 3.91m
EJ200 60/90kN 3.99m
M88-2 50/75kN 3.54m
F414EPE 68/116kN 3.91m (assuming 18% jump in both dry & wet thrust)

~5m long (more power but with additional stages compared to above)
F135-PW-100 128/191kN 5.59m
F119-PW-100 116/156kN 5.16m
XF-9 107.9/147.1kN 4.8m
AL-31F 74.6/122.6kN 4.945m

So before we even think of a 200kN engine- let's nail our desi 4m EPE. The same material science with the right design incorporating additional stages will get us a 5m 200kN in the natural flow of things. Also in 20 years from now adaptive cycle engines may be mainstream, whereas in 40 years electric drive may be cutting edge. We have to catch up & innovate in-house in step with the rest of the world without looking out to consultants to bail us out every time.

Hopefully once we master the tech for a 110KN engine will we be able to innovate from there. We already have a turboshaft partnership with Safran for Ardiden 1H1 (Dhruv) / 1U (LUH) engines- will we again look at them for IMRH or is that turboshaft being developed in house?

Also sadly there are no "rights" in Safran offsets. Nowhere mentioned that they part with jet engine tech- if it is acceptable to GoI/babus they might just install paper mache models of M-88 in all major intersections of our cities, claim an expenditure of ₹2500 crs and be done with it!

I follow your argument that ideally India wants to develop engines herself.

The problems I see are that (a) there is no certainty it can be done in 10-15 years (b) by the time India gets there engine technology will have moved well past what India has developed (c) India may have made/bought the next wave of aircraft to replace MiG's, M2K's and Jaguars in service. I think that the only way fighter engines made in India with Indian control of IP will be available by 2030-2035 will be through teaming up with foreign OEM's with the know how to make them. In particular, that affects AMCA Mk2 since there is no off the shelf engine available for it.

Out of curiosity, what measures have been taken to get the metallurgy, testing facilities, certification process and flying test beds in place to make engines? Actual steps, not just talk about taking them.

 

[MonaLazy]

what measures have been taken

May have worded it a bit obscurely. What I meant to emphasize is we don't need two partnerships with 2 OEMs for 2 jet engines which are so closely specc'd (90 & 110kN)!

We should go with whoever offers us a better deal (Safran/GE/RR/anyone else) and commit to it- then scale up and down to create an array of engines- like the turboshafts for Dhruv & LUH. We already have a working model to emulate with HAL & Safran there.

 

[Sarjen]

Ive been hearing about Design freezing over 5-7 years now for 5th gen or nuclear carrier or whatever the indigenous program that we've I'm tired

 

[fire starter]

Ive been hearing about Design freezing over 5-7 years now for 5th gen or nuclear carrier or whatever the indigenous program that we've I'm tired

You do realise that AMCA went through multiple design iterations .

 

[SavageKing456]

Ive been hearing about Design freezing over 5-7 years now for 5th gen or nuclear carrier or whatever the indigenous program that we've I'm tired

You would be hearing this even after first flight,design is never freezed

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Ive been hearing about Design freezing over 5-7 years now for 5th gen or nuclear carrier or whatever the indigenous program that we've I'm tired

GoI has to sanction the money bro. I think so far money sanctioned is for a test bed and 2 prototype. Amca would need more than that.

 

[lcafanboy]

Here we are struggling with 5th generation fighter AMCA while uncle Sam is flaunting 6th generation wafer thin fighter giving others inferiority complex....

 

[Covfefe]

Here we are struggling with 5th generation fighter AMCA while uncle Sam is flaunting 6th generation wafer thin fighter giving others inferiority complex....

Perks of having a domestic R&D and manufacturing ecosystem, apart from the absolute goondagiri that results in 700 Billion USD defense budgets.

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[Trololo]

Perks of having a domestic R&D and manufacturing ecosystem, apart from the absolute goondagiri that results in 700 Billion USD defense budgets.

"Goondagiri" comes from their intention to protect their national interest as they see fit. Whats stopping us from doing so? I'll tell you. Its our public. We as a people like freebies, doles, and are extremely selfish about our short term interests. Thats why we suffer later on. Else why are Chinese goods so popular in the Indian market and no Indian company can make a phone half as good as a 1+?

 

[FalconSlayers]

 

[no smoking]

You would be hearing this even after first flight,design is never freezed

Only if you find big faults in the original design.
Most of the modifications after first test flight are minor and doesn't change the major characteristics of the design.

 

[Covfefe]

As Russia, the United Kingdom, the European Union and others have provided assistance to India, out of geopolitical considerations, the Biden administration slowly decided to provide Modi with a ventilator 10 days later. Just before the arrival of the aid, 20 people in a hospital in New Delhi died one after another due to lack of oxygen.

@ezsasa @Indx TechStyle New Wumao, pest control please