AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Su-47]

If MCA program doesn't hit any major delays, IAF should consider reducing no of LCAs procured and increase MCAs procured. AFter all LCA is only a 4.5th gen while MCA is 5th gen, and we need a lot more stealth aircraft if we are to conduct air strikes in heavily defended enemy territory

 

[Yusuf]

Both are different categories of planes. LCA as the name suggests is light weight, MCA medium and the PAK FA the biggie of them. Its like you saying india should reduce the number of MiG 29s for MiG 21s when they were procured.

 

[nitesh]

Maybe not for the development work as most technologies regarding composites which is the key have already been developed. Whats going to be different on the MCA is the avionics, radar, stealth features for which maybe a $billion is enough.

Yusuf the avionics is going to be primarily around the mayavi suite also the radar is going to be Elta 2052 with indian inputs similar to LCA

 

[Yusuf]

So thats why the development costs are going to be less.

 

[nitesh]

If MCA program doesn't hit any major delays, IAF should consider reducing no of LCAs procured and increase MCAs procured. AFter all LCA is only a 4.5th gen while MCA is 5th gen, and we need a lot more stealth aircraft if we are to conduct air strikes in heavily defended enemy territory

Which will play the home turf defender role buddy I hope you got the answer

 

[Yusuf]

I have not heard of the GSQR for the MCA yet. If the AF has not laid its requirement, what will the DRDO/HAL etc develop? They need a requirement for them to start a design process. I think roughly it should be the same as the JSF Lightening II.

 

[nitesh]

yusuf that is what is mentioned in the article posted by shiv. IAF will be invovled from the design stage. I think navy should also get in to the boat and give some inputs.

 

[nitesh]

So thats why the development costs are going to be less.

To a certain extent yes. But the major investment will go in new composite materials and weapon development like for BVR we are developing astra, for PGM we have sudarshan similar development is needed in WVR category also we should look in to integrating nirbhay in to this platform

 

[Yusuf]

Yes the IAF has to assist in the design process, but what are they going to design? Usually there is a GSQR. Then RFIs are issued and then RFPs.

I think the IAF will hold its horses till the LCA becomes operational. For some reason they dont trust DRDO/HAL fully and are only with them half heartedly. The long delays of the LCA still haunts the AF. So their approach towards the MCA will be guarded.

 

[nitesh]

A sweeping statement indeed. If IAF could have been helping the designers from beginning we could have seen lesser delays. The article posted by shiv clearly mentions that IAF will be on board from the beginning. Stopo bashing DRDO only. For clapping you need both hands.

 

[Yusuf]

To a certain extent yes. But the major investment will go in new composite materials and weapon development like for BVR we are developing astra, for PGM we have sudarshan similar development is needed in WVR category also we should look in to integrating nirbhay in to this platform

Weapons integration comes in later. And the development of other weapons is not depended on the MCA/LCA but independent.
What we need to know is the engine and power requirement, speed, service ceiling,Range, payload that it will be required to carry etc.Wwhether its going to be a multi-role platform or strike? The fighters its slated to replace are strike fighters like the Jaguars.

 

[nitesh]

Weapons integration comes in later. And the development of other weapons is not depended on the MCA/LCA but independent.
What we need to know is the engine and power requirement, speed, service ceiling,Range, payload that it will be required to carry etc.Wwhether its going to be a multi-role platform or strike? The fighters its slated to replace are strike fighters like the Jaguars.

Well as per news coming in it is a medium category air craft (15-20 toms). PAK-FA will take the responsibility of air dominance like the MKI but it is multi role similarly MCA will replace he MRCA in future so it has to be multi tole with primarily designed for strike roles.

 

[Yusuf]

Stopo bashing DRDO only. For clapping you need both hands.

Im not a DRDO basher. Im pro indigenous development. I was stating the fact that the delays in LCA has made the AF skeptical. I believe that the LCA was delayed due to the IAF as well as it kept shifting goal posts.
Basic thing is that everyone from the designers to end users have to sit together from start to finish. Maybe they need to learn from the Americans and how they go about developing weapons systems. Problem is though that we dont have private contractors.

 

[nitesh]

Im not a DRDO basher. Im pro indigenous development. I was stating the fact that the delays in LCA has made the AF skeptical. I believe that the LCA was delayed due to the IAF as well as it kept shifting goal posts.
Basic thing is that everyone from the designers to end users have to sit together from start to finish. Maybe they need to learn from the Americans and how they go about developing weapons systems. Problem is though that we dont have private contractors.

First understand what LCA was meant for. We are reading too much of DDM here. In 1983 there was intent to develop a fighter only for technology demonstration purpose. Till 1987 we were not able to decide whether we will go ahead with full FBW or the mirage style 3 digital channel and 1 analog channel back up. There was absolutely no infrastructure for development. Even there were no test pilots for testing the FBW in simulator (IF IAF could have supported the program from beginning then this case could not have been there). Only in 1993 the money was issued (not exactly issued) for prototype development. After 1998 US has stopped giving it's test facilities for LCA FBW testbed. Our scientists have not even allowed to take there data. Isn't this added to the delay? The whole test program documentation is done here. There was no expertise in this area also. Isn't this is an achievement that LCA program has not seen any accident so fat after 1096 test flights? From 2001 the testing is going on in the middle when IAF changed the requirement from R 60 as WVR missiles to R 73 the testing stopped for some time and then restarted after necessary changes were made in structure. (Reason for delay). Right now even flutter tests are completed now the testing is entering in weaponization phase where consultancy is aked for speeding up the process don't you think these inputs will help in MCA development?

Regarding private contractors it is too easy to say give the job to private companies but name the private company which will invest in a technology where no return is guaranteed? Private companies are slowly entering but it will take time till they become autonomous and do teh complete design and development on there own.

Source: Book by retd. air marshal philp rajkumar "the tejas story"

 

[Yusuf]

Im with you Nitesh, all we are doing is running around a bush.
I am proud of the LCA and all for the MCA. The MCA should come out quicker as we have gained a lot from the LCA program. The only thing thats of concern is the engine. We dong have a powerful engine yet. Once that comes along, India will mean business in the international fighter market.

 

[nitesh]

Im with you Nitesh, all we are doing is running around a bush.
I am proud of the LCA and all for the MCA. The MCA should come out quicker as we have gained a lot from the LCA program. The only thing thats of concern is the engine. We dong have a powerful engine yet. Once that comes along, India will mean business in the international fighter market.

Engine even here I think we are nearing the completion the dry thrust produced by K 10 variant is 53KN which is equal to the R 33 engine of MiG35 . It should have been in Russia as of now for testing

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Im not a DRDO basher. Im pro indigenous development. I was stating the fact that the delays in LCA has made the AF skeptical. I believe that the LCA was delayed due to the IAF as well as it kept shifting goal posts.
Basic thing is that everyone from the designers to end users have to sit together from start to finish. Maybe they need to learn from the Americans and how they go about developing weapons systems. Problem is though that we dont have private contractors.

The problem with DRDO is that the are not good in probject management. With reagards to technical aspect they are one of the best or we would not have seen so many new products but they lose when it comes to project management.
One of the example that shows the lack is that PM they allow changing of the product requirements. In defence project once the project starts you should not change the goals to be ahcieved.
They also lack in planning or time management.

 

[Yusuf]

Yes. Everywhere there is an initial version and then as technology evolves, there are upgrades. What has happened with the LCA is that the initial version didnt come as the IAF kept adding to its requirement. Even if we had a first batch of 20 odd and then learnt from that and got a MkII and MkIII, we would have had an operational LCA fleet quickly.

 

[Pintu]

I agree with you Yusuf, the experience gained by DRDO will come in handy in the design of future version of LCAs, as LCA mark -I was to be built from scratch.

Regards

 

[nitesh]

now this is good news, the designer the production agency and user all working togeather:

Indian Air Force, DRDO and HAL to Frame Requirements for Fifth Generation Fighter Jet | India Defence

Indian Air Force, DRDO and HAL to Frame Requirements for Fifth Generation Fighter Jet

The Indian Air Force (IAF) and a team of aircraft designers will formally set up a joint committee to frame the specifications for India's own MCA, which will be built largely in Bangalore. The MCA's design team will centre on the agencies that have built the LCA: the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA); the National Aeronautics Laboratory (NAL); Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL); and a host of Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) laboratories that will develop futuristic sensors and systems for the MCA.

The director of ADA, Dr PS Subramaniam, confirmed to Business Standard, "The joint committee is likely to be formed within two or three weeks. This committee will finalise what will go into the MCA, as well as the budget and development schedule." According to Dr Subramaniam, the programme will aim to develop the MCA and build five to six prototypes at a cost of Rs 5,000 crore. That is approximately the same amount that has gone into the LCA programme.

With this, Indian aeronautical designers will be working in all the fighter categories. In the light fighter category (10-11 tonnes), the Tejas LCA is expected to get operational clearance in 2011; the MCA will be India's first foray into the medium fighter category (14-15 tonnes); and in the heavy fighter category (20 tonnes plus), currently ruled by the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI, Indian designers plan to partner their Russian counterparts in developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Interestingly, the decision to develop an indigenous MCA comes alongside the overseas procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 50,000 crore. Senior IAF planners point out that the MMRCA procurement is unavoidable for replacing the MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s that will become obsolete while the MCA is still being developed.

By 2020, when the IAF's current fleet would have been largely phased out, MoD planners forecast a requirement for at least 250 medium fighters. This has raised hopes amongst the MMRCA contenders (the US F/A-18 and F-16, Russia's Mig-35; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Swedish Gripen) that the winner could end up supplying twice as many fighters as the current tender. But a successful Indian MCA programme would cap the MMRCA procurement at 126 fighters. After that, the MCA production will kick in.

The MCA designers plan to pursue technologies superior to anything currently on offer. The ADA director points out, "None of the MMRCA contenders will be state-of-the-art in 2015-2017. But the MCA will; it will incorporate the technologies of the future, which currently feature only on the US Air Force's F-22 Raptor."

India's aeronautical designers see the MCA programme as crucial for taking forward the expertise that has been painstakingly accumulated in the Tejas LCA programme. The IAF is in agreement; and the Rama Rao Committee, set up for restructuring the DRDO, has recommended that programmes must be created to provide continuity for designers.

Says a senior MoD official: "With great difficulty we have built up a team that can design a complete combat aircraft. After a couple of years, when the LCA goes into production, there will be no design work left. Without another aircraft programme to work on, we will lose this team, having attained this level."