AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

sthf

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1. 4.5 gen are lot cheaper.
2. Very low maintenance.
3. More no. of sorties per day.
4. Peace time air patrol.
5.Bombing role after 5th gen destroy enemy Air Force.
1. Not necessarily. Royal Navy's F-35 costs the same as IAFs Rafales. Eurofighter is the most expensive fighter in production.
2. Plethora of examples that suggest otherwise.
3. Can't comment. Information is scarce.
4. Depends on the adversary.
5. Nobody is stopping you from strapping bombs on 5th gen platforms. They'll lose only their stealth properties and retain everything else.
 

Flame Thrower

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1. Not necessarily. Royal Navy's F-35 costs the same as IAFs Rafales. Eurofighter is the most expensive fighter in production.
2. Plethora of examples that suggest otherwise.
3. Can't comment. Information is scarce.
4. Depends on the adversary.
5. Nobody is stopping you from strapping bombs on 5th gen platforms. They'll lose only their stealth properties and retain everything else.
1. Forget others... IAF LCA Mk2 costs lot less than PAKFA, FGFA or AMCA. So the cost is less.

2. Please give one example for me where maintenance of single engined fighter(take Gripen NG) costing more than any fifth gen fighter. LCA MK2 is to be more user and maintenance friendly than LCA mk1 and to be on par with Gripen NG. One eg. Shape memory alloys are to be used in MK2.

2. Per my knowledge golden rule of maintenance is it roughly costs 5% (per year) of the total aircraft for maintaining it. IAF does train lot more than any AF. Some flankers are flown over 300 hrs.

3. Well this is made on the assumption of raptor in picture. True, RAM of Raptor , F 35 and Pak Fa are different. But, today 4.5 gen plane can take 3 sorties per day. During wartime we maybe able to increase it to go close to 5 sorties for short time. There is no way Pak Fa or F 35 to do similar sortie rate even for short duration. Though RAM used on F 35 or Pak Fa to have better properties than the ram used on Raptor, all problems didn't vanish. Maintenance is expected to reduce, but don't expect any 5th gen to be as rugged as 4 or 4.5 gen fighters.

4. In general, lower maintenance, more sorties means more chances of 4.5 gen sorties. Now when you wanna bring enemy into picture. Only Indo-China border falls into your category. Though China will have more 5th gen fighters, it doesn't force India to have only 5th gen sorties. Sure in this theatre might have more 5th gen sorties than other theatres but the overall peacetime 4.5 gen sortie rate will be more than 5th gen. Thus saving huge amounts of capital for other purposes.

5. Let's put your logic for a bit of test. We can buy atleast 2 to 3 LCA MK2 for any 5th gen in picture. In peacetime we can have more sorties, at cheaper rate. In war time 5th gens will take care enemy AF and enemy sams. While 4.5 gen will focus on bombing energy ground forces and strategic assets freeing 5th gen. Sure missiles can always help. But Brahmos costs close to 3 mil, so they wouldn't be fired at will. In my view 50% 5th gen and 50% low cost and low maintenance 4.5 gen will reduce the costs than any 100% 5th gen a/c. Low cost for 4.5 gen sortie than 5th gen sortie.

The whole discussion started on "future prospective of LCA, exports and possible military assistance and diplomatic advantage something we can't ignore. If you care to disagree, then we can discuss in chat"

These are my views on "need for LCA mk2 in the 5th gen fighter world" and thus I rest my case.
 
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FergisNahk

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Modi govt writing finis to Tejas?
Published October 30, 2017 | By admin SOURCE: Bharat Karnad



All work related to designing and developing the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft and its variants, including the right-weighted naval Tejas, has come to a stop at ADA and HAL. The plan was for the air force Mk-II version of the LCA Tejas light combat aircraft — a much improved version of the Mk-IA equipped with the indigenous DRDO AESA radar that Parrikar succeeded in forcing on the Indian Air Force to, in turn, lead in a natural progression to the follow-on advance medium combat aircraft (AMCA), which would also incorporate design features of the Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

The FGFA to be produced in India is to include the features the IAF wanted in it, such as the 360 degree radar surveillance and tracking, a two-pilot configuration (the IAF under Charlie Brown asked for, but better sense prevailed as Vayu Bhavan realized that would increase its RCS) and even a new power plant. The Indian Govt has already invested in this collaborative project to the tune of some $1billion-$1.5 billion, and was cleared by then defence minister Manohar Parrikar in February this year.

This entire plan is now unraveling with the Modi govt, at IAF’s persistent prodding, doing a rethink on the FGFA despite enormous investment of monies and Indian effort into it. The HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju has written to defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman strongly pitching for the FGFA program, especially stressing the fact that India stands to gain very advanced technologies that no other country is prepared to transfer in full, including computer source codes for every technology and feature in it, which will be the building blocks for the indigenous aerospace industry. (See https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-project-with-russia/articleshow/61189233.cms )

The question is will Sitharaman display some little common sense and see that the F-16 and F-18 combo the US govt under Trump is pushing on Delhi supposedly to cement the “100 year” strategic partnership that Rex Tillerson offered as a means of containing China and maintaining peace in the Indo-Pacific/ Asia-Pacific region, will take India back half a century in aerospace terms. That’s how old the Lockheed Martin F-16 and the Boeing F-18 really are. Agility-wise, the Tejas can run circles around the F-16 and F-18, what to talk of the Pakistan Air Force — flying the F-16 for the last 30 years — which no doubt, is licking its chops in anticipation of the IAF fielding its own F-16s, and once again making a grievous historic blunder of the kind that led to GOI, on IAF’s say-so, junking the Marut Mk-II in the early 1970s, buying instead the British Jaguar deep penetration and strike aircraft that cannot strike hard and penetrate deep at the same time, and ending the prospects of locally designed and produced combat aircraft and aerospace industry, and sealing the future of the country as an arms dependency.

Parrikar understood very well the importance of the LCA as lead-in hereafter to only Indian aircraft in IAF and Indian Navy’s inventory and resisted all overtures from the armed services in the direction of the FGFA rejection. Because let’s be clear what IAF’s enthusiasm for AMCA really is — it is a cover to ditch all indigenous aircraft altogether. Because without Tejas Mk-II and FGFA there’s no AMCA! This is the kind of brilliant tactical strategy the Indian military excels in — sawing off the limb of a tree the country is perched on. Parrikar saw through it, but lacked the guts to explain to Modi, stuck on simple-minded notions of ‘Make in India’ the importance of sticking with Tejas and marshaling all national resources into it, and going with the economical Su-30-Tejas variants option backed by FGFA as technology seedbed. But Modi went ahead and procured 36 Rafales from France anyway, preempting Parrikar’s correct choice of relying on augmented numbers of Su-30 upgraded to “super Sukoi” model, that would have resulted in a far superior Indian air order-of-battle than the hodge-podge fleet IAF will be fielding in the 2020s and beyond. God help the country.

Now what of Sitharaman? Her background is curious. A JNU product and, like many of this Leftist local university’ s alumni, she took to the opportunities offered by the big, bad, Western world like fish to water. She worked at a senior position in the American firm, Price Waterhouse Cooper, in London, and as a producer at the British Broadcasting Corporation, requiring security clearance from the UK security services. Incidentally, was this background of no concern to the ruling BJP and GOI before she began climbing their ranks to now be the Union defence minister? So, it should surprise no one greatly if she speedily puts her signature on contracts to buy the obsolete F-16s and F-18s, 100 more or whatever of the Rafale, and similar, usually technologically dated, imported hardware from US, UK, France, Israel, et al the armed services keep pleading for.

http://idrw.org/modi-govt-writing-finis-to-tejas/#more-152445 .
When Bharat Karnad comes on TV, i just simply change the channel. Simply because of the fact that despite being a 'Soviet-agent', he hasn't done anything to turn around such potential relationships as Russia & India. He survives through his analysis and blogs which some people read and blabber about.
 

FergisNahk

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I hope you're right. I keep wishing for a full scale prototype of amca to pop up someday without any intimation.
Yes, expecting a day when the pics are suddenly out of a prototype for taxi tests. That day i am going to take a leave, sit at home and watch it again and again. :)
 

FergisNahk

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If your source is Indian defence forum or pakistan defence forum, then don't worry to much. I have been there and seen these nonsense myself. The forum is run by jihadis with fake names of "hellfire", "parikrama" etc.

It is that there has been no news at all to outseide world and a high secrecy is maintained to prevent sabotage. If India was doing poorly on AMCA, there would be no reason for not to go to FGFA. Also, MK2 was long decided as a mandatory upgrade to MK1A due to additional requirement of fuel and space for carrying equipments internally.

Nirmala Sitharaman is not the one who controls these projects but Modi himself. If these jihadis weren't able to get information, then Modi is doing a good job.

Making MK2 is not a big deal but making Kaveri is. As long as Kaveri engines are completed, making MK2 will be an obvious step. Designing an airframe with minor improvement in size is just a small parameter adjustment and easily done. Increase in scaling by 3-4% requires minimal adjustments. The delta wing is highly unstable which means there will be lot of margins already fed into the fly-by-wire to accommodate the small changes.
Even if India is doing a poor research, i guess it would be a better designed product than J-20/J-31 given the self sufficiency and efforts we put into it along with the domestic and international industry inputs.
 

sthf

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1. LCA MK1A costs nearly $100 million each but offers a fraction of capabilities and survivability. No orders for MK2 as it doesn't exists.
2. Gripen NG is not in service. F-22 has higher availability rates than Rafale and Eurofighter.
3. Speculation on your part. There is no first hand information about wartime sortie rates of 5th gen platforms, Libya and Syria don't count, atleast from an Indian perspective.
4. Yes, lower maintainence means higher sorties but neither MK2 nor AMCA actually exists. Rafale, latest in IAF stable is legally bound to provide higher availability rates than any other platform which may include LCA.
5. No, you cannot buy 2-3 LCA in lieu of a single 5th gen and expect them to do the same job. By that logic, you can also buy 5 Mig-21s or 50 Spitfires for the price for the price of a single LCA MK1A. So why go through the trouble?
 

binayak95

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1. LCA MK1A costs nearly $100 million each but offers a fraction of capabilities and survivability. No orders for MK2 as it doesn't exists.
2. Gripen NG is not in service. F-22 has higher availability rates than Rafale and Eurofighter.
3. Speculation on your part. There is no first hand information about wartime sortie rates of 5th gen platforms, Libya and Syria don't count, atleast from an Indian perspective.
4. Yes, lower maintainence means higher sorties but neither MK2 nor AMCA actually exists. Rafale, latest in IAF stable is legally bound to provide higher availability rates than any other platform which may include LCA.
5. No, you cannot buy 2-3 LCA in lieu of a single 5th gen and expect them to do the same job. By that logic, you can also buy 5 Mig-21s or 50 Spitfires for the price for the price of a single LCA MK1A. So why go through the trouble?
A lighter note, but 50 griffon engined spitfires with 24 HVAR rockets would do a great job in a low air threat environment in COIN roles. Same thing as the Super Tucanos.

This is Super Tucano
 

Flame Thrower

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1. LCA MK1A costs nearly $100 million each but offers a fraction of capabilities and survivability. No orders for MK2 as it doesn't exists.
2. Gripen NG is not in service. F-22 has higher availability rates than Rafale and Eurofighter.
3. Speculation on your part. There is no first hand information about wartime sortie rates of 5th gen platforms, Libya and Syria don't count, atleast from an Indian perspective.
4. Yes, lower maintainence means higher sorties but neither MK2 nor AMCA actually exists. Rafale, latest in IAF stable is legally bound to provide higher availability rates than any other platform which may include LCA.
5. No, you cannot buy 2-3 LCA in lieu of a single 5th gen and expect them to do the same job. By that logic, you can also buy 5 Mig-21s or 50 Spitfires for the price for the price of a single LCA MK1A. So why go through the trouble?
Provide the source that LCA mk1a costs 100 mil.

Provide the source that Raptor has higher sortie rate than rafale or ef.

Ef has 3 sorties per day...similar sortie rate with rafale as well.

Rest we can discuss in personal chat.
 

Kshithij

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Even if India is doing a poor research, i guess it would be a better designed product than J-20/J-31 given the self sufficiency and efforts we put into it along with the domestic and international industry inputs.
Delta wing is a bad choice for 5th generation fighter. High instantaneous maneuvering but poor continuous maneuvering. It bleeds energy badly. Delta wing is ideal for mass manufacturing in thousands due to its low number of parts, ease of manufacture due to high rigidity of design and ease of use of composites.
 

cannonfodder

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Unless there are enough private players that can grease babus, politicians & also encourage counter propaganda articles our ability to produce India defence equipment will be hampered. I have often wondered if we can tweek policy so that babus/generals feel pinch whenever they write check to buy foreign equipment. Politicians get around stuff no matter what happens. :tongue2:

HAL is on track to finish 11 Tejas by this financial year. Private industry will ensure that officers and bureaucrats get their cut - be it Desi or foreign. That is why there is so much clamouring for privatization, not because they do a better job.
Lockheed Martin has royally screwed up F-35. And this is not the first fiasco by foreign private industries - F111, Eurofighter, Zumwalt, Littoral Combat Ships, Queen Elizabeth Aircraft Career - the list of screw-ups is quite large.
 
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Kshithij

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1. LCA MK1A costs nearly $100 million each but offers a fraction of capabilities and survivability. No orders for MK2 as it doesn't exists.
2. Gripen NG is not in service. F-22 has higher availability rates than Rafale and Eurofighter.
3. Speculation on your part. There is no first hand information about wartime sortie rates of 5th gen platforms, Libya and Syria don't count, atleast from an Indian perspective.
4. Yes, lower maintainence means higher sorties but neither MK2 nor AMCA actually exists. Rafale, latest in IAF stable is legally bound to provide higher availability rates than any other platform which may include LCA.
5. No, you cannot buy 2-3 LCA in lieu of a single 5th gen and expect them to do the same job. By that logic, you can also buy 5 Mig-21s or 50 Spitfires for the price for the price of a single LCA MK1A. So why go through the trouble?
100 million dollars for mk1a? India is spending 15 billion dollars for 150 Mk1A? (includes 123+20 trainers +7 SP).

Mk2 is just a scaled MK1A. Not an issue. AMCA is already designed. In fact, the FGFA design could have been reused as India spent 300 million USD and the design was decent.

One can substitute 4.5 gen planes for 5th generation ones. MiG21 is not useable due to lack of radars, digital avionics and maneuverability. With all the equipment, MiG 21 will be as expensive as Tejas. Maybe, Tejas will be cheaper due to delta wing and easy assembly.

MiG21 is not cheaper. It is just that it lacks anything needed tp fight. The difference between 4.5 and 5th generation is not high.

Power is quality x Quantity. I am excluding fuel and range.

Quality of F35 =10, Tejas Mk2= 7, MiG21( without equipment and digital avionics) = 1.

So, MiG21 is not even comparable.
 

torque456

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How long do you think the amca prototype would take to come out? Since it's been sanctioned this year as new projects.

The interview by iaf officer had indicated that work on amca would pick up very fast next year.
 

Steven Rogers

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^^ First prototype in 7-8 years minimum after Funding starts.

Anything less than that is jingo's dream.
When design is in final stage, and is set to complete within two years, every thing short is jingoism [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] like tejas, when we had too much inferior technology, we developed a prototype within a decade and that decade started from 1993 and ended in 1995 [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23].

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk
 

Kshithij

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^^ First prototype in 7-8 years minimum after Funding starts.

Anything less than that is jingo's dream.
preliminary design is completed. Now, prototype will be in 2 years. After prototyping, there will be detailed design review which will take time. Also, engine development will take time. But, prototyping is relatively simple
 

WolfPack86

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AMCA and Mk2 has been sanctioned. Hopefully funds will also start to flow in soon.

:india::india::india::india::india:

Source - IR@BR
Can you please tell me full form of IR@BR i searched in internet but i could not find it any where and do you have any twitter post of any defence website of these news.
 

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