Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[sob]

[quite]but as has been pointed out n no of times - the problem is IAF is not stocking enough spares for it

so what happens is when SU30 needs some spares IAF goes to HAL who then orders it from OEM vendor
now there is a lead time involved in mfg a aprt
so during all that time the SU30 sits in the hangar and thus the availability rte gets affected[/quote]

@PaliwalWarrior you simply have no idea how the spares are handled.

IAF does not stock critical spares. It is the world of HAL because overhaul and critical repair work are done by HAL. IAF only carries out routine maintenance.

almost 90% of the components in a fighter aircraft are changed based on number of flying hours. Nobody waits for them to fail. HAL knows the number of hours IAF will fly the SU 30 and based on that they place an annual order with the OEMs with staggered delivery. So if spares are a problem then the issue is not with IAF.

Moreover the service rate of SU 30 is not based on the lack of spares but on the quality of the spares and the quality of the build.

 

[sob]

couple of things we have to remember

1. Days of dog fight are over. Most of the kills will not require WVR skills.

2. On one hand we have the US which has been operating Stealth technology for decades and on the other side we have people developing it on a manufacturing scale, of the first time. There is simply no comparison.

 

[ashdoc]

india should go for f 18 E/F super hornet which is cheaper .

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@PaliwalWarrior you simply have no idea how the spares are handled.

IAF does not stock critical spares. It is the world of HAL because overhaul and critical repair work are done by HAL. IAF only carries out routine maintenance.

almost 90% of the components in a fighter aircraft are changed based on number of flying hours. Nobody waits for them to fail. HAL knows the number of hours IAF will fly the SU 30 and based on that they place an annual order with the OEMs with staggered delivery. So if spares are a problem then the issue is not with IAF.

Moreover the service rate of SU 30 is not based on the lack of spares but on the quality of the spares and the quality of the build.

there are no free lunches

it is the maintainance contract between HAL & IAF which decides

how much money IAF will pay HAL to what work and the scope of work of HAL


HAL has been on record since last few years asking IAF to adopt performance based maintaiance contract and HAL is ready for it & proposing it

what performance based contract means is

HAL will charge 5% of fleet value as maintiance charges in this 5% charge it will guarantee

x% fleet availability at all times for n nos of specified flying hours
i.e. out of 200 fleet of Su30 it will guarantee x% will be available at all times also each Su30s flying hours / year will be defined for eg 200 hrs , 220 hrs 240 hrs

lets say they agree that each Su30 will fly 240 hrs /year
and fleet availability at 80%

then say HAL is not able to meet fleet availability cirteria at 80% but only meets 70% then HAL will pay a penalty to IAF

but if it turns out that those 10% which HAL is not able to make available have flown more than 240 hrs / year i.e. IAF has used them more than contracted time then HAL will not pay the penalty

HAL is ready to take on performance based Maintiance contract

IAF is not ready

i wonder why ?

 

[Zebra]

What are the benefits that UPA-1 preferred to ignore?

What ever partner countries spend in buying F-35s, maximum % of it they get back as business in the name of 'work share'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuk_(radar)

Anyway, please answer my question. Was Russia unable to install AESA, or unwilling to?

Its tricky part. :biggrin2:
Even the link you posted that also confirm it.
It says......... type : Slotted Planar/PESA/AESA
So they are AESA radar...?
Remember, you also asked couple of days ago about link of AESA radars on Su-30 mki.

 

[Zebra]

http://tacairnet.com/2015/08/15/the...d-get-another-shot-with-the-indian-air-force/

The F-16IN Super Viper Could Get Another Shot with the Indian Air Force

Posted on August 15, 2015 by Ian D'Costa in In the News

An F-16IN with a full Mark 82 load. (Photograph copyright: SP's Aviation)

According to The Indian Express, the United States has extended an offer to India to jointly produce a line of fighter jets to both enhance military ties as well as provide for India’s frontline fighter fleet shortage. This comes right after the Indian government announced that the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal, originally signed with France’s Dassault Aviation, was, for all intents and purposes, over. Bumps, missteps and poor communication contributed to the downfall of the contract which would have seen a set of Rafales built in France to Indian specifications, while the remaining number of jets to be procured in the deal would be built under license in India. So that means India will soon be back on the market, looking for another multi-role fighter to fulfill its needs for another fifteen to twenty years while it works on developing its own indigenous stealth fighter program and makes the best of the mess that is the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA, the joint Russian-Indian derivative of the PAK FA/T-50 stealth fighter prototype.

Among the many offers tendered to India during the MMRCA competition was one from Lockheed Martin, featuring a heavily-updated version of one of the most successful fighter aircraft in history- the F-16 Fighting Falcon. Designated the F-16IN Super Viper, Lockheed Martin went as far as to call it “the most advanced F-16 ever”.

The integration of fifth-generation technology into the fourth-generation platform is pretty much what makes an already-potent fighter an even more potent air-to-air and air-to-ground killer. Using the Block 60 configuration as the base to work off of, Lockheed Martin added a number of upgrades to beef up the Fighting Falcon into the Super Viper. The most powerful upgrade comes in the form of the AN/APG-80 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar system, which is already in service with the United Arab Emirates’ Block 60 Desert Falcons. The AN/APG-80 gives the pilot incredible situational awareness and the ability to target and track in any weather/atmospheric condition with stunning precision. An infrared search and track (IRST) system, the ability to integrate the Indian Air Force’s Operational Data Link (which allows for interoperability with other Indian fighter/attack/AWACS/support units), an onboard electronic warfare suite from Raytheon, and an upgraded modular mission computer add to the F-16IN’s sizable resume. The cockpit has been redeveloped to an extent, with three color high-definition MFDs (main flight displays) feeding the pilot everything he needs to know, as well as the ability to integrate the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS). An updated General Electric F110-132A functions as the sole powerplant, able to output over 32,000 pounds of thrust, and the Super Viper also carries conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) with a built-in fuel probe, designed to mate with the basket/drogue refueling system used by Indian aerial tankers, instead of the boom/receptacle system commonly used by American F-16s.

A digital rendering of the F-16IN Super Viper. Immediately underneath the chin intake is a Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod. (Lockheed Martin)

In terms of producing the fighters themselves, it wouldn’t be the first time the F-16 was built outside the United States. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) was responsible for building over 300 Vipers under license for but the Turkish Air Force and the Egyptian Air Force from the late 1980s onward. Additionally, Korean Aerospace Industries also built a production line for the KF-16, outputting 140 Block 52 Vipers within ten years. Hypothetically, an Indian F-16 line would be the sixth such line in the F-16’s history. The F-16IN was originally eliminated from MMRCA contention in 2011, apparently due to a slower turning rate and diminished agility with conformal fuel tanks loaded. However, given the Fighting Falcon’s track record and combat history, as well as the kickass price tag ($50 million USD/unit) that comes with such a deal (when contrasting it with other comparable fighters sold en masse within the same program parameters), it wouldn’t be the worst thing for the Indian Air Force to give Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper another long hard look.

 

[Zebra]

First F-16V , later on F-35 A.

 

[Zebra]

The article in post #766 talks about F-16IN Super Viper.
Does it mean they don't know which is the baseline variant of F-16 today.

 

[Adioz]

Days of dog fight are over. Most of the kills will not require WVR skills.

JSF is not expected to see a lot of dogfights as F-22 is supposed to complement it.
FGFA is supposed to partake in a dogfight as it is an air-superiority fighter.
Saying that modern warfare means dogfight engagements and kills will always be beyond visual range is like saying active hardkill measures on tanks (like Trophy on Merkava) will completely replace passive measures like tank armour.
(Apparently Israelis planned to do that until the Russians came out with the RPG-30)
That means stryker with an advanced CIWS will replace M1A2 Abrams.
Since that is impossible => Air-superiority fighters WILL SEE DOGFIGHTS.

 

[Adioz]

On one hand we have the US which has been operating Stealth technology for decades and on the other side we have people developing it on a manufacturing scale, of the first time. There is simply no comparison.

You are only half right.

The PEOPLE devoloping this technology include:-
1. Chinese: Only cybertheft and an industry capable of producing 4th gen fighters means Chinese jets are atleast a decade away. That said, they might surprise us.
2. Russians: They were the ones who gave the concept of stealth. Umlitsev defected to U.S. when Soviets ran out of funds. That said, Russians do not overrate stealth and do not depend a lot upon it. That is why they are only providing FGFA with frontal stealth while not compromising aerodynamic performance.
3.Americans: They sacrifice Billions of dollars worth on stealth crafts that get shot down by Serbs at the end of the day (remember the F-117A Nighthawk). Russians (and maybe Chinese) later took home that 25 year old technology from the crashed Nighthawk for free (courtesy Serbians).

Few more points worth noting:-
1.V.L.O.: Stealth technology is not being used on fighter jets the first time. Concepts devoloped by Umlitsev in Soviet Russia were used to make Low Observable (L.O.) aircraft (like the Eurofighter Typhoon). Now they have kicked it up a notch, to V.L.O. standards (Very Low Observable)
2.Fighter stealth is a different technology: The technology used on stealth aircraft earlier (like the B-2 Spirit) cannot be employed as is on fighter jets. Earlier aircraft used RAM and other expensive options as they were limited in numbers. They were also extremely maintenance intensive.(Ever wonder why B-2s are called hanger queens?)
3.Anti-stealth radars: If Iranians can make them, then stealth just got de-valued.

 

[Adioz]

If US do a favour to India , in that case, F-35 will be way cheaper than X-32.
Bcz it will be a part of the huge on going JSF program.
On top of it cost effective upgrades, spares and maintenance until entire life cycle.

As far as U.S. equipment vs Russian equipment is concerned, Russians embezzle money out of us and Americans blackmail us into following their political decisions internationally (and not opposing them like in the Iran sanctions case) or else they will cut spares and support.
We can find the best of the two worlds in European markets but that has hit a roadblock of sorts.
So the best option is either come to an agreement with the French
OR
Another short term option might be available (But it is a major compromise with capabilities for a period of time). Even so, what if the air force buys Mig 29Ks instead of Rafaels and transfers them over to the navy when the IAC-I and IAC-II are ready? By that time the air force will have more options available. e.g.:- HAL Tejas Mk3 or (hopefully) HAL AMCA.

 

[Adioz]

Sir, if that red color part is true, then India won't go for war with Russia anyway.
So no need to worry. :biggrin2:
And Russia also has many tech, that they don't offer it in export market , what so ever.

Have a look at price of F-35A........ https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost
It says.................. "An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million".
If we get that (or near to this) price then good, otherwise no good. On top of it, that price include engine.

When someone got F-35, then why the hell he / she gonna think about a dag fight, I wonder....!
Even Swedish believe in 'look first, kill first' concept, forget about US.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that this thread is about Rafael and not a FGFA vs F-35A duel or a Russian vs U.S. equipment duel.
What is so funny is, we are comparing two multirole fighters where the former is being designed predominantly as an air superiority fighter whereas the latter is being designed as primarily a ground attack fighter.
FGFA is meant to counter the F-22, JSF is meant to complement it.
JSF is not expected to see a lot of dogfights as F-22 is supposed to complement it.
However in most forward deployments, there will be no F-22s or enough F-22s to save the F-35s from a dog fight. What then? B.V.R. enough? I did not think so.....F-35 turns Fukd-35

When someone got F-35, then why the hell he / she gonna think about a dag fight, I wonder....!
Even Swedish believe in 'look first, kill first' concept, forget about US.

No military operation plan survives contact. In the heat of battle, nothing will play out the way you expect it to so best be prepared

 

[Zebra]

JSF is not expected to see a lot of dogfights as F-22 is supposed to complement it.
FGFA is supposed to partake in a dogfight as it is an air-superiority fighter.
Saying that modern warfare means dogfight engagements and kills will always be beyond visual range is like saying active hardkill measures on tanks (like Trophy on Merkava) will completely replace passive measures like tank armour.
(Apparently Israelis planned to do that until the Russians came out with the RPG-30)
That means stryker with an advanced CIWS will replace M1A2 Abrams.
Since that is impossible => Air-superiority fighters WILL SEE DOGFIGHTS.

Sir, the million dollar question is..........what is the fun to spend so much on F-35 project.

F-22 itself is a all weather stealth tactical fighter aircraft and it has its own capabilities of ground attack and electronic warfare also.
And it was designed as an air superiority fighter.
It can do the job anyway.
If the red color part is true, then why they need F-35....!

 

[Adioz]

Sir, the million dollar question is..........what is the fun to spend so much on F-35 project.

F-22 itself is a all weather stealth tactical fighter aircraft and it has its own capabilities of ground attack and electronic warfare also.
And it was designed as an air superiority fighter.
It can do the job anyway.
If the red color part is true, then why they need F-35....!

Every fighter these days is multirole. It is the primary design criteria that matters. F-22 is primarily an air-superiority fighter. F-35 is a ground-attack fighter.
They do not have enough F-22s. They can not restart production. Pilots have doubts about their Raptor. Next, F-22 does not have a STOVL variant or a CATOBAR variant. At the begining of the F-35 program, they either thought F-35 would work out as a dogfighter or they thought F-35 would attain air-superiority without getting into dogfights. Wrong in both cases, still they need the JSF.
They still need it because it costs less and has an export variant. (unlike the F-22)

 

[blueblood]

• US MIC mumbo-jumbo. Since F-35 is a shitty dogfighter they came up with the "no more dog fight" BS. They also predicted era of gun kills are over and paid for it in Vietnam. Same people came up with the "missile with a man in it" F-104 which is now known as Witwenmacher ("The Widowmaker"). Then came the "missilers", the F-6D and F-111B.The now gold standard of single engine fighter the "middle weight" F-16 is not something its designers envisaged or wanted.

• Similarly, TVC is a useless thing when its on a Russian aircraft (only good for air shows) but not so much when on F-22 which also "invented" super-maneuverability(Flankers), super-cruise(English Electric Lightnening, TSR-2) basic tenets of a fifth generation until F-35 came along and suddenly these were not the criteria anymore.

The joint strike fighter has the similar internal payload of that of a Nachang Q-5. So much for the "strike aircraft". Anything carried outside compromises the precious stealth.

 

[sachin458377]

Good economy Support Good armed forces or the country wll go bankrupt.. just as soviet went broke (90% of soviet economy was related to military)

India is just waking up to defence manufacture and will take sometime not tomorrow or next month or even next year for that matter .. patience is the miracle

War dont see this that you are developing or developed. We should be prepared for the worst at all time.

 

[pmaitra]

What ever partner countries spend in buying F-35s, maximum % of it they get back as business in the name of 'work share'.

So we would have gotten to put money in, and perhaps make the handle for the cockpit, and then would have bought the plane. We would have gotten to make components we already know how to make, not something we don't know and would have gotten ToT. Sounds like a no benefit to me.

Its tricky part. :biggrin2:
Even the link you posted that also confirm it.
It says......... type : Slotted Planar/PESA/AESA
So they are AESA radar...?
Remember, you also asked couple of days ago about link of AESA radars on Su-30 mki.

So, it is not true that the Russians were not able to fit AESA in our MiG-29s. They simply were unwilling to do it.

 

[Compersion]

Can mig-21 be turned into drones ... Even missiles like the harpy

Is there a deadline for rafael decision it would he good to know what is next ...

Will it be French will it be otherwise ... A lot of time has been spent with France on this it seems ...

 

[Zebra]

So we would have gotten to put money in, and perhaps make the handle for the cockpit, and then would have bought the plane. We would have gotten to make components we already know how to make, not something we don't know and would have gotten ToT. Sounds like a no benefit to me.


So, it is not true that the Russians were not able to fit AESA in our MiG-29s. They simply were unwilling to do it.

Sir, even those "handle for the cockpit" can create jobs. :bounce:

 

[Prashant12]

India and France will sign the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets on the eve of French President François Hollande's visit to India for the Republic Day celebrations.

India and France will sign the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets on the eve of French President François Hollande's visit to India for the Republic Day celebrations.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar is hopeful that India will negotiate price upto 25 per cent less. The advance fighter jet will cost India 75 million euro each instead of 105 million euro quoted earlier.

The supply of full consignment of 36 fighters to the Indian Air Force will be completed within seven years of signing the deal.

The draft contract, which envisages supply of the first fighter within 36 months of signing the deal, has been finalised.

India's mammoth defence requirements and the swift manoeuvrability shown by the government towards accepting new proposals have led to considerable posturing from various powers.

The defence deal will be a big statement for India-France strategic ties. With the purchase, the government hopes to tide over the shortage of fighter jets in the Indian Air Force (IAF).

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indias-rafael-punch-deal-with-france-on-january-25/1/556130.html