Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

Sea Eagle

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

See Navy has more supportive of indigenous capabilities so they are not as venerable as IA or IAF


Navy is nowhere close to indigenous. Only the hulls are made in India, that too with imported material. From propulsion to weapons and sensors almost everything is imported.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

something more to chew on from the same pinky ponky land,

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Counter-response to Air Marshal Barbora, and others | Security Wise

Nowhere in my article – "Why Rafale is a big mistake" did I raise any question about the rigorous testing regime the IAF employed to shortlist the aircraft in the running for the MMRCA slot, and yet the former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, in what's presumably the institutional response to my piece, makes it, nonsequiterishly, the centre-piece of his response – a tactic to divert from my main theme.

Nor is the American F-35 and its price the issue. This aircraft is a horrendously costly aircraft, which I have time and again trashed as a possible IAF option in my writings and even in a luncheon meeting (where other Indian commentators were present) with the US Assistant Secretary of Defence. F-35 is, as many in the US describe it, a boondoggle and "white elephant" – expensive to acquire, inordinately difficult to maintain in service and at, trillion dollars, unaffordable even for the United States in terms of its lifetime costing – and the last thing that IAF should have on its mind. It is another matter that in the run-up to the Rafale announcement many senior officers in the IAF and many more commentators in the media were actually gung-ho about this aircraft and championed its acquisition (in lieu of the F-16/F-18)!

But Barbora has been more honest than his service colleagues who have published their responses. Air Vice Marshal Arjun Subramaniam, was deployed by the IAF on a previous occasion when I called for terminating the Rafale deal as wasteful in extremis (See ""Stop wasteful military deals", New Indian Express, November 1, 2013 featured elsewhere in this blog and at Stop wasteful military deals - The New Indian Express. Subramaniam reacted (See his "Undermining national security", New Indian Express, November 7, 2013 at Undermining national security - The New Indian Express, by warning that such writings undermine national security – as if national security, other than being a special preserve of the uniformed brass, was some delicate exotic hot-house orchid that can weather no critical storm. Further, his doubts about the Tejas – the weaknesses in which project is due not little to IAF's refusal to own up and be accountable for this project – were substantively answered by a flood of on-line reaction commentaries by technically proficient and knowledgeable writers who backed my contention that Tejas can be the answer to IAF's prayers (and which commentaries have since mysteriously disappeared from the New Indian Express website (!) but are retained for posterity on this blog – refer the air force section in this blog).

Those comments are mine!!!
But senior airmen are in a habit of not grappling with the central issues that are raised, jagging off, for example, into this analyst's honest mistake of spelling CAS' name as Saha, rather than the correct Raha, etc. Consider in this respect Air Vice Marshal (retd) Manmohan Bahadur's critique of my case for a strategic bomber "Strategic bomber for IAF", New Indian Express, February 7, 2014 on this blog and at Strategic Bomber for IAF - The New Indian Express. He veered off on a tangent saying how difficult it is to produce a strategic bomber indigenously when the country cannot even manufacture a trainer plane, etc, when actually what I had suggested was leasing (as we do nuclear attack submarines) Tu-160 Blackjack strategic bomber from Russia as the manned strategic delivery option. In this diversion, he, of course failed to address the larger point about the IAF leadership in the early 1970s fouling up by not accepting the Tu-22 Backfire bomber Russia was keen India offtake, and what it revealed about the lack of the "strategic" sense of the IAF, etc.. To the extent this was taken up, Bahadur sought to pooh-pooh it by sloghing the responsibility off to the Government, referring to the straitened financial circumstances the country was in at the time, the trend of policy, and other such extraneous factors when actually the Tu-22 could have been secured on the same terms as was the MiG-23BN, which was IAF's choice! ("Fallacies of strategic bomber", New Indian Express, February 11, 2014 Fallacies of Strategic Bomber - The New Indian Express

Unlike, Subramaniam and Bahadur, the more senior and apparently more responsible, ex-VCAS Barbora, is candid in acknowledging that costs are a factor, and that the unit cost of any fully loaded 4th generation fighter is presently in the $300 million-$400 million range, which is precisely the price range I said Rafale falls in. However, notwithstanding the quite extraordinary expenditure involved, which Barbora does not dispute, he is for acquiring it because, well, the long selection process was swell, IAF's need has to be filled and, though he does not say it in so many words (see his last para), how Rafale in IAF's inventory will raisie India's stock in "the comity of nations"!

The Indian defence industry was crippled at the start by IAF's hankering for Western combat planes. The fully locally developed HF-24 and its follow-on Mk-2, were ruthlessly killed off by IAF, doing away what little chance India had of emerging as an independent aerospace power in the manner that Brazil and Israel have done in recent years. The IAF's role in ending the Marut project in the early Seventies to favor purchase of the Jaguar Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (which as I pointed out at the time can, ironically, penetrate deep or strike hard but cannot do both at the samke time!) and its subsequent reluctance to nurse an in-country combat aircraft R&D and production project, especially the Tejas, lest its umbilical linkage to imported aircraft be severed, is there for all to mull over. Tejas, it must be remembered is a DRDO-driven programme. These are touchy issues for the IAF that I often bring up in my writings, and which are at the core of why India, fatally for a country with pretensions to great power, remains an arms dependency, but which issues no commentators from IAF want, for obvious reasons, to tackle.

What thus ends up being reiterated is the official service line, repeated ad infinitum, for example, (again) by AVM (retd) Manmohan Bahadur ("MMRCA misgivings unfounded", New Indian Express, August, August 2, 2014 at MMRCA Misgivings Unfounded - The New Indian Express), who is apparently, IAF's designated batter. He writes re: Rafale as MMRCA that "Costs, albeit important, don't decide acquisitions; it is the capability one desires that is the driving factor and it's our misfortune that HAL has not delivered this to the nation. The IAF just looks at getting the right product to safeguard the national skies, as it is its duty to do so." His and IAF's contention thus is that costs to the exchequer should be of less concern than IAF having the Rafale in its stable! And, moreover, as is the service's wont, he covers up for IAF's acquisition visioning and strategizing failures by telescoping IAF's urgent needs with DRDO-HAL's shortcomings.

The question the Indian government confronts is whether to take the easy way out and meet the MMRCA requirements but only half-way (80 or so Rafales) as is the first indication from the Modi regime, or will it bite the bullet, as it were, and decide to end for once and for all the policy of pell-mell importation of unbearably expensive aircraft, and order IAF to take charge of the Tejas programme and rationalize its force structure with just two main lines of combat aircraft, the mainstay Tejas Mk 1 for air defence, Mk 2 in the MMRCA role, and the Su-30 and FGFA Su-50. There's no other way.

The pleas by the likes of Bahadur to "let the professionals do their job of recommending what is good for the defence of the nation" would be reassuring if the IAF brass actually knew what they were doing, or that they are even clear about the nonsense designation of the Rafale as "medium" combat aircraft. That IAF is in the dark on most such issues and the entire MMRCA schemata mainly reflects IAF's mindless procurement thinking and confusion, may be evidenced in a 4-part video uploaded on youtube of a Vayu-Strategic Post hosted seminar on Indian airpower, July 4, 2014, the relevant 2nd part of this seminar is available at StratPost | Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II - YouTube. All the IAF luminaries – ACM (retd) SP Tyagi on down, it is obvious, have no clue about what "life costing" metrics are all about, and routinely talk down Russian aircraft, but are mute when informed about the intricacies of lifetime costing of aircraft and about the fact of the 44% availability of Rafale in the French AF, which matches the availability of the Su-30 in IAF. This last is in the 4th part of the above seminar at StratPost | Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable III - YouTube.

There's even more damning stuff about, such as the scale of "commissions"", etc. on offer or already deposited which, as one of my well-informed correspondents writes, tongue barely in cheek, would put the Rafale in the "heavy" class. And there's lots more — all there for the BJP government to examine, enough reason, in any case, for it to revisit the matter of MMRCA, and just how and why the Rafale deal will not only beggar the country – not that the IAF cares — but take down the Tejas programme and the nascent Indian defence industry with it.
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IAF does not even comprehend the total lifecycle cost of rafale (But Ex VCAS barbora has candidly admitted that it costs anywhere between 300 to 400 million dollar in total lifecycle cost for a fully loaded 4.5th gen fighter!!!)and what can this can achieve if it is channelled into indian mil aviation and R&D.

And French haven't been even half as forthcoming as Israelis during Kargil war's urgent LGB requirement from IAF.

To expect French to stand up to mighty china's(which will filed more than twenty ballistic nuclear missile carrying submarine in future) armtwisting ,

and cater to India's future urgent wartime requirement "When IAF is bombing deeply in Tibet" is even more incredulous!!!Apparently the French are at the forefront of lifting EU arms embargo against china.Only two countries in the world are capable of standing upto china to protect their strategic interests, they are US and Russia.

I don't know whether anybody in IAF thought about this. PAF found out that their F-16s are show pieces when strategic interest changes recently.

And still we haven't got the exact figures for rafale's range and other topspeed specs in indian conditions. They will remain till deal is signed. The combat radius of Tejas is 500 km depending upon the weapon loads is the official Press Information Bureau release in IOC-2 , so it has a combat range of 1000 Km in hot indian conditions,

Does rafale has a combat range of more than 3000 Km with weapons in indian conditions, where lift drops 12 percent and engine thrust drops 10 percent?

If it is so why did the 2 French rafales require one take off with fuel load and five refuelling for 10000 Km 10.5 hour flight to reunion island with nothing but three big external tanks?

It just gives and endurance of less than two hours and a range less than 2000 Km even with no weapons. Why? Was that due to the hot tropical climate of the flight profile of the 10000 Km flight or not. Mysteriously Manmohan Bahardur's reply does not even mention the range in any concrete numbers. Just says that rafale has thrice the range of tejas mk1, and tejas mk2 is in the drawing board(people hop that it stays there forever!!!)

Also has IAF done any analysis of how rafale will face off with PLAf J-20 and J-31 while deep bombing in Tibet? Because when MMRCA requirement was mooted J-20 was in the drawingboard(As Manmohan Bahadur fondly refers in his article about Tejas mk2). But unfortunately thanks to resolute backing it is now flying in 2014. SO does that affect thing on IAF's decision to buy Rafale? Will rafale club the 5th gen J-20?
 
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Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Yes SU 30 is last option for IAF... The main reason we went for MMRCA so that we will get full Technology transfer and knowledge that now it seems that is not going to happen from french even after pending 20 Billions of $$ or in fact any one else say Russia too... they will also not give us the single crystal blade technology for Kaveri... So we are in a situation of depleting fighter strength with no new inductions of fighters... HAL will also take few years to scale up the production of LCA...
Now its timeto use the last option another year or two will be too late....
No body will share technology till that extent...you hve to develop it urself.. no ones gonna spoon fed you...
MOney cannot buy th eexperience gained in developing a technology...
HAL is saying 12-16 per year .... IAF DRDO HAL together have delayed it a bit more....
If a good number of orders are placed a new assembly line can be started and by 2019 in todays scenario an ideal platform to start mass production of MK2 can be laid...

see next 4 years even if on 2 assy line even 10 per year we will have 80 aircrafts.... and later same man power and assy line can be used for MK2 which will surely be good for us...
My argument on Mig 29 was not in reference of today... rather such decisions I would have taken 15 years back to save IAF with Mig 21's / Mig 27 outdated fighters...

I will still argue that Mig 29 K standard for Indian Navy is very good fighter more than capable of the F-16 52 upgrade with Pakistan... just to beat the numbers for Mig 21's it is a good replacement... but we have now the LCA on the wings...
I agree with you, no dependence of any countries... Russia is also not our friend they too have instances of refusing technology be it in T - 90 or very recently on Smerch...
MIG29K is a great choice.... wat i meant was if MIG 29 for IAF is asked to be selected TODAY I will not select it...

I will not give my decision on if Russia is a friend or not but will say when no nation was ready to supply arms they did.... No nation will lease you submarines.... no nation will support you that much at international forums.... no nation helped you build a missile .....
They charged us for all this ... but we were ready to offer money to all but no body took it apart from them....
 

bose

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Navy is nowhere close to indigenous. Only the hulls are made in India, that too with imported material. From propulsion to weapons and sensors almost everything is imported.
That is true ... I do not claim that we are building all for Navy... But we are definitely in a situation where we are in position to design and develop big ships and nuclear subs... buts yes we have to develop the key technologies in co operation with others or self made... The main problem I see here is the scale or number in which we require those turbines in India for Navy... very few, it will be too costly for local production... So either we have to spend huge amount of money for local development through R&D... If you remember the economic situation in 90's was very bad and we should have started spending Billions of $$ then we could have seen the result now...

Sometime it makes sense to import unless the local requirement scales up... my 2 cents...
 
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Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

This is even better than what I was saying ....:thumb: @p2prada I hope all your points are answered in it ....
@ersakthivel I hope all the people who were quoting another article still stick to there old statements of articles being the base of all arguments....:thumb:

something more to chew on from the same pinky ponky land,

Counter-response to Air Marshal Barbora, and others | Security Wise

Nowhere in my article – "Why Rafale is a big mistake" did I raise any question about the rigorous testing regime the IAF employed to shortlist the aircraft in the running for the MMRCA slot, and yet the former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, in what's presumably the institutional response to my piece, makes it, nonsequiterishly, the centre-piece of his response – a tactic to divert from my main theme.

Nor is the American F-35 and its price the issue. This aircraft is a horrendously costly aircraft, which I have time and again trashed as a possible IAF option in my writings and even in a luncheon meeting (where other Indian commentators were present) with the US Assistant Secretary of Defence. F-35 is, as many in the US describe it, a boondoggle and "white elephant" – expensive to acquire, inordinately difficult to maintain in service and at, trillion dollars, unaffordable even for the United States in terms of its lifetime costing – and the last thing that IAF should have on its mind. It is another matter that in the run-up to the Rafale announcement many senior officers in the IAF and many more commentators in the media were actually gung-ho about this aircraft and championed its acquisition (in lieu of the F-16/F-18)!

But Barbora has been more honest than his service colleagues who have published their responses. Air Vice Marshal Arjun Subramaniam, was deployed by the IAF on a previous occasion when I called for terminating the Rafale deal as wasteful in extremis (See ""Stop wasteful military deals", New Indian Express, November 1, 2013 featured elsewhere in this blog and at Stop wasteful military deals - The New Indian Express. Subramaniam reacted (See his "Undermining national security", New Indian Express, November 7, 2013 at Undermining national security - The New Indian Express, by warning that such writings undermine national security – as if national security, other than being a special preserve of the uniformed brass, was some delicate exotic hot-house orchid that can weather no critical storm. Further, his doubts about the Tejas – the weaknesses in which project is due not little to IAF's refusal to own up and be accountable for this project – were substantively answered by a flood of on-line reaction commentaries by technically proficient and knowledgeable writers who backed my contention that Tejas can be the answer to IAF's prayers (and which commentaries have since mysteriously disappeared from the New Indian Express website (!) but are retained for posterity on this blog – refer the air force section in this blog).



But senior airmen are in a habit of not grappling with the central issues that are raised, jagging off, for example, into this analyst's honest mistake of spelling CAS' name as Saha, rather than the correct Raha, etc. Consider in this respect Air Vice Marshal (retd) Manmohan Bahadur's critique of my case for a strategic bomber "Strategic bomber for IAF", New Indian Express, February 7, 2014 on this blog and at Strategic Bomber for IAF - The New Indian Express. He veered off on a tangent saying how difficult it is to produce a strategic bomber indigenously when the country cannot even manufacture a trainer plane, etc, when actually what I had suggested was leasing (as we do nuclear attack submarines) Tu-160 Blackjack strategic bomber from Russia as the manned strategic delivery option. In this diversion, he, of course failed to address the larger point about the IAF leadership in the early 1970s fouling up by not accepting the Tu-22 Backfire bomber Russia was keen India offtake, and what it revealed about the lack of the "strategic" sense of the IAF, etc.. To the extent this was taken up, Bahadur sought to pooh-pooh it by sloghing the responsibility off to the Government, referring to the straitened financial circumstances the country was in at the time, the trend of policy, and other such extraneous factors when actually the Tu-22 could have been secured on the same terms as was the MiG-23BN, which was IAF's choice! ("Fallacies of strategic bomber", New Indian Express, February 11, 2014 Fallacies of Strategic Bomber - The New Indian Express

Unlike, Subramaniam and Bahadur, the more senior and apparently more responsible, ex-VCAS Barbora, is candid in acknowledging that costs are a factor, and that the unit cost of any fully loaded 4th generation fighter is presently in the $300 million-$400 million range, which is precisely the price range I said Rafale falls in. However, notwithstanding the quite extraordinary expenditure involved, which Barbora does not dispute, he is for acquiring it because, well, the long selection process was swell, IAF's need has to be filled and, though he does not say it in so many words (see his last para), how Rafale in IAF's inventory will raisie India's stock in "the comity of nations"!

The Indian defence industry was crippled at the start by IAF's hankering for Western combat planes. The fully locally developed HF-24 and its follow-on Mk-2, were ruthlessly killed off by IAF, doing away what little chance India had of emerging as an independent aerospace power in the manner that Brazil and Israel have done in recent years. The IAF's role in ending the Marut project in the early Seventies to favor purchase of the Jaguar Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft (which as I pointed out at the time can, ironically, penetrate deep or strike hard but cannot do both at the samke time!) and its subsequent reluctance to nurse an in-country combat aircraft R&D and production project, especially the Tejas, lest its umbilical linkage to imported aircraft be severed, is there for all to mull over. Tejas, it must be remembered is a DRDO-driven programme. These are touchy issues for the IAF that I often bring up in my writings, and which are at the core of why India, fatally for a country with pretensions to great power, remains an arms dependency, but which issues no commentators from IAF want, for obvious reasons, to tackle.

What thus ends up being reiterated is the official service line, repeated ad infinitum, for example, (again) by AVM (retd) Manmohan Bahadur ("MMRCA misgivings unfounded", New Indian Express, August, August 2, 2014 at MMRCA Misgivings Unfounded - The New Indian Express), who is apparently, IAF's designated batter. He writes re: Rafale as MMRCA that "Costs, albeit important, don't decide acquisitions; it is the capability one desires that is the driving factor and it's our misfortune that HAL has not delivered this to the nation. The IAF just looks at getting the right product to safeguard the national skies, as it is its duty to do so." His and IAF's contention thus is that costs to the exchequer should be of less concern than IAF having the Rafale in its stable! And, moreover, as is the service's wont, he covers up for IAF's acquisition visioning and strategizing failures by telescoping IAF's urgent needs with DRDO-HAL's shortcomings.

The question the Indian government confronts is whether to take the easy way out and meet the MMRCA requirements but only half-way (80 or so Rafales) as is the first indication from the Modi regime, or will it bite the bullet, as it were, and decide to end for once and for all the policy of pell-mell importation of unbearably expensive aircraft, and order IAF to take charge of the Tejas programme and rationalize its force structure with just two main lines of combat aircraft, the mainstay Tejas Mk 1 for air defence, Mk 2 in the MMRCA role, and the Su-30 and FGFA Su-50. There's no other way.

The pleas by the likes of Bahadur to "let the professionals do their job of recommending what is good for the defence of the nation" would be reassuring if the IAF brass actually knew what they were doing, or that they are even clear about the nonsense designation of the Rafale as "medium" combat aircraft. That IAF is in the dark on most such issues and the entire MMRCA schemata mainly reflects IAF's mindless procurement thinking and confusion, may be evidenced in a 4-part video uploaded on youtube of a Vayu-Strategic Post hosted seminar on Indian airpower, July 4, 2014, the relevant 2nd part of this seminar is available at StratPost | Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II - YouTube. All the IAF luminaries – ACM (retd) SP Tyagi on down, it is obvious, have no clue about what "life costing" metrics are all about, and routinely talk down Russian aircraft, but are mute when informed about the intricacies of lifetime costing of aircraft and about the fact of the 44% availability of Rafale in the French AF, which matches the availability of the Su-30 in IAF. This last is in the 4th part of the above seminar at StratPost | Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable III - YouTube.

There's even more damning stuff about, such as the scale of "commissions"", etc. on offer or already deposited which, as one of my well-informed correspondents writes, tongue barely in cheek, would put the Rafale in the "heavy" class. And there's lots more — all there for the BJP government to examine, enough reason, in any case, for it to revisit the matter of MMRCA, and just how and why the Rafale deal will not only beggar the country – not that the IAF cares — but take down the Tejas programme and the nascent Indian defence industry with it.
 
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Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Navy is nowhere close to indigenous. Only the hulls are made in India, that too with imported material. From propulsion to weapons and sensors almost everything is imported.
yes alot of things are imported but there is a small thing to be counted in is that if any of these things are stopped then we today have the capability to develop it or we already have it ....
Those things are still imported because of various reasons cost,more capable,more advanced....but we have a option it can be inferior to the foreign ....
Remeber when we were not able to import special steel and we went ahead and manufactured steel of our own....
 

bose

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Now its timeto use the last option another year or two will be too late....
No body will share technology till that extent...you hve to develop it urself.. no ones gonna spoon fed you...
MOney cannot buy th eexperience gained in developing a technology...
HAL is saying 12-16 per year .... IAF DRDO HAL together have delayed it a bit more....
If a good number of orders are placed a new assembly line can be started and by 2019 in todays scenario an ideal platform to start mass production of MK2 can be laid...

see next 4 years even if on 2 assy line even 10 per year we will have 80 aircrafts.... and later same man power and assy line can be used for MK2 which will surely be good for us...
Few things to consider here...

1. I am not sure how much HAL can scale up the production of SU 30 MKI with current infrastructure they have.. If we have to go for SU 30 MKI that planning should have gone fives years back as early as 2009 or 2010 latest... now too late form that...
2. We still believe we will get TOT from Rafale deal that is not going to happen...

MIG29K is a great choice.... wat i meant was if MIG 29 for IAF is asked to be selected TODAY I will not select it...

I will not give my decision on if Russia is a friend or not but will say when no nation was ready to supply arms they did.... No nation will lease you submarines.... no nation will support you that much at international forums.... no nation helped you build a missile .....
They charged us for all this ... but we were ready to offer money to all but no body took it apart from them....
Let stop the dicussion on Mig 29 K here ... at this point it is not relevant....

There is a distinction between Soviet Union and Russia of today...
 

Pulkit

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Few things to consider here...

1. I am not sure how much HAL can scale up the production of SU 30 MKI with current infrastructure they have.. If we have to go for SU 30 MKI that planning should have gone fives years back as early as 2009 or 2010 latest... now too late form that...
2. We still believe we will get TOT from Rafale deal that is not going to happen...



Let stop the dicussion on Mig 29 K here ... at this point it is not relevant....

There is a distinction between Soviet Union and Russia of today...
Sukhoi assembly line is till running we just need to speed it up a bit...... a little more private sector and in less than a year we will improve our production....

Sir I was talking about Russia Today it still holds true....
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

In a different note, in my profession 66% of all projects fail [business objective] and that includes the best of USA and Europe concerns...

I have always advocated a very very strict monitoring mechanism with very good project managers for DRDO... If DRDO can bring in good project managers [not scientists ] to take care of delivery then most of the problems will be solved...
DRDO's problems are not so simple. It is much more deep-rooted than that. Just changing one group of management doesn't change anything. And you need to train scientists to become good project managers. You can't have technically unfit people becoming project managers. What you are talking about is the absolute top of DRDO, not just the project managers. IMHO, that should be headed by at least one serving military brass of each service, depending on the project.

The IAF tried to get their man in HAL and failed. Armed forces personnel are asked to take a walk by the management when they want greater power in DPSUs. DPSUs don't want to relinquish their civilian control. They will have to actually work then.

Do you work in the private industry? If you do, you can't compare the work ethics of the company to that of DRDO. My friends who work in the R&D sectors of DPSUs have taken a minimum of 5 coffee breaks that last half an hour every day. Beat that. And note the word "minimum." Heck I have told them to their face that they suck, and they quietly murmur in agreement. You really need to speak to people who deal with this everyday instead of sitting behind a computer passing comments and supporting views that are very detrimental to the country.

Some quotes from this article,
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...isgivings-unfounded-must-read.html#post928164
This is a perfect example of the ignorant trying to drive defence force structuring
Let armchair critics not derail a capability provider that successive IAF chiefs have urged the government to procure. This trend to doubt recommendations of service chiefs is dangerous and is conspicuous by the surety of it being raised each time a big-ticket item of any of the three services is close to fruition.
Disagreements based on professionally sound arguments are always welcome—but they come with a caveat in matters of national security. The naysayers must be held responsible, too.
These statements are so important that only those who don't understand them make silly claims as is happening on this forum.

The MRCA is currently the most important deal to happen to the country's military. Even if LCA Mk2 is available today it is too unimportant in comparison. Basically, Rafale is what we will use to fight while LCA Mk2 is what we will use to say it's a feather in our cap. LCA is merely symbolic. If it wasn't made by DRDO, IAF wouldn't even have looked at it.

Imports are temporary fix, in next 10 years it has to stop or as low as say 5%...

DRDO have to scale up with the best of qualities for IA / IAF / Navy which they are capable off...

See Navy has more supportive of indigenous capabilities so they are not as venerable as IA or IAF
The navy is nowhere as indigenous as the army and the air force. The primary equipment of the army and the air force today are mostly indigenously manufactured in India. The T-90 and MKI are classic examples where more than 85% of the T-90 and more than 90% of the MKI are made in India. The rest that is made outside is inconsequential to the future sustainability of both.

The primary armaments of the navy is imported in bulk, not even assembled in India. Our capital ships are nowhere near that level of indigenization. All three wings are working towards the right goal, just that DRDO is unable to provide at the level we need them to.

Imports are temporary, but it has to continue for at least another 20 years before DRDO becomes more credible through joint ventures, until then the armed forces will have to tough it out.

There is a thin line between import, indigenous and self sufficient. Making the Bofors gun in India makes us self-sufficient in that department. Even after 40 years we won't be self-sufficient when it comes to LCA.
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

i had heard that india's requirement is to protect the indian airspace and no doubt typhoon is a more capable and better aircraft for air superiority and air to air combat role, which will be able to flawlessly guard the indian sky and beyond. france won't be capable of delivering a requested and required amount of aircraft to india in timely manner, whereas the typhoon can be produced at much quicker rate. :)
Both made the cut and Rafale turned out to be cheaper.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Once again , useless subjective rants while unable to answer pointed questions.

rafale was designed in 80s . It is not designed with the intention of taking on PLAf j-20s and J-31s that are going to fly the moment we finish the induction of last rafale and end up "honing our tactics on rafale".

It's future development even more costly. IAF has no clue on what is the lifecycle cost on rafale till 2050. that even French couldn't quantify because no one knows the future upgradation costs.

And still no one knows why a rafale with three huge external fuel tanks and no weapons , need 5 refuelling to complete 10000 Km trip to reunion island from france , in a 10.5 hour flight.

Since no other foreign airforce extensively operates Gripen E and rafale , their claimed twice , thrice range over even mk1 is really suspect , since the internal fuel fraction figures don't reflect such a disparity. Now it is officially announced that tejas mk1 has a combat radius of 500 Km in IOC-2,

So practically tejas can fly with weapons for more than 1000 Km in hot indian climate confirming the earlier quotes by test pilots that tejas has an envious range for a small fighter almost compares with Mirage-2000.In tejas mk2 we can expect some more improvement with additional fuel tank in the 0.5 meter fuselage extension.

But we don't know whether raafle can fly with weapons for 3000 Km in indian hot conditions which sap 12 percent lift and ten percent engine thrust.Figures are hard to come by.
 
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bose

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

DRDO's problems are not so simple. It is much more deep-rooted than that. Just changing one group of management doesn't change anything. And you need to train scientists to become good project managers. You can't have technically unfit people becoming project managers. What you are talking about is the absolute top of DRDO, not just the project managers. IMHO, that should be headed by at least one serving military brass of each service, depending on the project.
There problems are there in DRDO which are similar to what the any other countries such as USA too faced down the years, putting in place strong accountability is only cure, make people responsibility and count for each rupee spend... It was unfortunate of DRDO that it did not had leadership of the likes of a Bhabha or Sethna or Sarabhai ...

In My 20 years of delivery experience I would say that technical guys in most cases are not good project managers... If required we may train the technical persons for project management. The world of technical and manager are so different. Increase in orders for ships and Sub the rest will be locally produced over time...

The IAF tried to get their man in HAL and failed. Armed forces personnel are asked to take a walk by the management when they want greater power in DPSUs. DPSUs don't want to relinquish their civilian control. They will have to actually work then.
I see here the failure on the part of MOD to put in place right people in right place...


Do you work in the private industry? If you do, you can't compare the work ethics of the company to that of DRDO. My friends who work in the R&D sectors of DPSUs have taken a minimum of 5 coffee breaks that last half an hour every day. Beat that. And note the word "minimum." Heck I have told them to their face that they suck, and they quietly murmur in agreement. You really need to speak to people who deal with this everyday instead of sitting behind a computer passing comments and supporting views that are very detrimental to the country.
I work in a private multinational that is beating the growth expectation of the industry for last 3 years... but you will be surprise to see the level of nepotism and Badmasi that existed there, private sector has different types of problems than public sectors... Where private sector beats the Public sectors is fixing accountability and well defined responsibility for deliveries... My employers never will find out how many breaks I get in a day... If I fail to delivery my appraisal is gone, less pay hike and no promotion... I have to deliver it does not matter if do it by working 2 hrs a day or 16 hrs a day...

What is the most un doing for public sector in general is that employees get into a comfort zone and do not fear much for failed deliveries... Once all the PSU's get partial private ownership these issue will reduce...

Some quotes from this article,
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...isgivings-unfounded-must-read.html#post928164




These statements are so important that only those who don't understand them make silly claims as is happening on this forum.

The MRCA is currently the most important deal to happen to the country's military. Even if LCA Mk2 is available today it is too unimportant in comparison. Basically, Rafale is what we will use to fight while LCA Mk2 is what we will use to say it's a feather in our cap. LCA is merely symbolic. If it wasn't made by DRDO, IAF wouldn't even have looked at it.
Rafale is temporary fix where as Tejas Mark II is future of India... The numbers will come from Tejas only...

The navy is nowhere as indigenous as the army and the air force. The primary equipment of the army and the air force today are mostly indigenously manufactured in India. The T-90 and MKI are classic examples where more than 85% of the T-90 and more than 90% of the MKI are made in India. The rest that is made outside is inconsequential to the future sustainability of both.

The primary armaments of the navy is imported in bulk, not even assembled in India. Our capital ships are nowhere near that level of indigenization. All three wings are working towards the right goal, just that DRDO is unable to provide at the level we need them to.

Imports are temporary, but it has to continue for at least another 20 years before DRDO becomes more credible through joint ventures, until then the armed forces will have to tough it out.

There is a thin line between import, indigenous and self sufficient. Making the Bofors gun in India makes us self-sufficient in that department. Even after 40 years we won't be self-sufficient when it comes to LCA.
India with geo political situations at the neighborhood that exists now and ever changing relationship with Russia, India will not be able to afford 20 years from now... DRDO will have to deliver in next 10 years...

DRDO has done fantastic job in some and have to come up to speed in others...

I do not agree with you on LCA part...

AS far as Navy is concerned it is true that we are still importing bulk but we have also have achieved the necessary skill to design and build big ships and subs... which is not the case for army and airforce...
 
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abingdonboy

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

another way to advertise foreign goods and harm Local good.....

Didnt agree on all the points by Bharat Khand but even this is simply a anti Indian Goods article....
No it isn't anti-Indian goods- it is a very pragmatic and sober analysis that is based in reality. It is no good dreaming of the LCA Mk.2 being more capable or a worthy substitute to the Rafale.
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

There problems are there in DRDO which are similar to what the any other countries such as USA too faced down the years, putting in place strong accountability is only cure, make people responsibility and count for each rupee spend... It was unfortunate of DRDO that it did not had leadership of the likes of a Bhabha or Sethna or Sarabhai ...

In My 20 years of delivery experience I would say that technical guys in most cases are not good project managers... If required we may train the technical persons for project management. The world of technical and manager are so different. Increase in orders for ships and Sub the rest will be locally produced over time...
You won't find non-technical managers in technical fields in DRDO. You need an engineering degree just to get in.

A quick look at Project Managers for telecom in naukri.com gave me these results.
Project Manager Telecom Jobs - Jobs in Project Manager Telecom - Project Manager Telecom Job - Naukri.com

Nobody wants a project manager who doesn't have technical expertise in that field.

This is what I mean when I say the LCA/Arjun/DRDO brigade make baseless claims, all "facts" pulled out of arses.

I see here the failure on the part of MOD to put in place right people in right place...
The lobbyists in DRDO are very powerful. They become bureaucrats rather than scientists as time goes on.

My employers never will find out how many breaks I get in a day... If I fail to delivery my appraisal is gone, less pay hike and no promotion... I have to deliver it does not matter if do it by working 2 hrs a day or 16 hrs a day...
That isn't necessary in DPSU. You finish your work when it is done. Time isn't a factor.

Rafale is temporary fix where as Tejas Mark II is future of India... The numbers will come from Tejas only...
Actually no. If you have followed my posts you will understand that I have already given the squadron break up of the IAF. There is little place for LCA Mk2. And I just posted a thread in the IAF section where Alexander Klementyev said the contract will be signed soon for FGFA, meaning negotiations are happening as we speak.

With 270 MKI, 189 Rafale, ~200 FGFA and ~200 AMCA, there is very little place for LCA. While LCA will be inducted in adequate numbers, it won't be in the silly numbers beyond 200. For some reason IAF likes that number.

800-900 jets is what IAF is planning for in the near future.

I am sure you know simple math. Just add up all the numbers and divide by 21. See what's the difference and that's LCA's number. I got 2 squadrons as minimum and 4 as maximum by adjusting FGFA between 144 and 200 jets.

India with geo political situations at the neighborhood that exists now and ever changing relationship with Russia, India will not be able to afford 20 years from now... DRDO will have to deliver in next 10 years...
Nothing is changing with Russia. It is status quo today and relations are expected to improve once we sign major oil and gas deals with them. We may sign up for more nuclear plants also. The FGFA will keep our military relations set for the next 50 years. Military exchanges are expected to improve.

And it's cute if you think DRDO will deliver in just 10 years when gestation period for major projects is 10 years. A lot of them are yet to start. 10 years is when we will know if they can deliver or not. That's why I said 20.

I do not agree with you on LCA part...
You don't have facts to back it up. As of today the original LCA is yet to fly.

AS far as Navy is concerned it is true that we are still importing bulk but we have also have achieved the necessary skill to design and build big ships and subs... which is not the case for army and airforce...
Just designing and building the hulls is not enough. You can say the level of sophistication of our subs are still one or two generations behind the Americans or the Russians, the same as LCA.

Arjun Mk2 will only be at the level of a T-90S, or a proper equivalent of the upgraded T-90SM. OTOH, the Russians are already in the process of deploying a new 4th generation tank with capabilities that neither of the two tanks mentioned above will compare in any parameter.

The air force and army requirements are of a much higher standard than navy requirements. Look at the equivalent programs. Army wants a FMBT that is at the same level as Armata UCP if we go by what they have said, presently the only 4th gen tank in development. The air force wants the FGFA which is touted by HAL to be the most advanced aircraft when it enters service.

OTOH, the navy's carrier is at the same level as an American LHD. The second carrier is slightly bigger, but still half the size and complement as an American carrier. The destroyers will pass for frigates in the US Navy and the Russian navy. Clink on the links embedded to see the F-22 equivalents for the foreign navies.

So, are any of the navy requirements at the same level as army and air force requirements? No. The army and the air force plan to create world standards. The navy is not even close to those standards of requirements. So the indigenization of the navy's technology is not as difficult as doing the same for the army and the air force. In the end the air force FGFAs will be made in India from scratch, like it is for MKI (almost) and Rafale (totally). That will push it far ahead of the navy in comparison.

Rafale is part of this "world" standard. LCA is not.
 

Ashutosh Lokhande

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Oh please. I am all for DRDO to succeed. I have even supported DRDO's existence in my discussions with Ray sir who said DRDO needs to be shut down. I know and understand the importance of DRDO.

It doesn't matter how good the Arjun performs today. It is 15 years late. It doesn't matter how safe LCA is. It is not as capable as what IAF needs. Even LCA is 15 years late.

Both LCA and Arjun have requirements that date back to 1985. There is another aircraft which dates back to 1985 and is nearing obsolescence in the US, the F-22. The Americans have already started the procedures to replace the F-22. This is how threats evolve.



Because anybody supporting LCA over Rafale doesn't know what he is talking about.



Sorry to disappoint you. Now go to the Know your Rafale thread and start reading from page 1.

The quote was made when the British ruled the country and Indian products needed to be supported. He never said anything about the army buying from DRDO.



Oh, right. When you have idiots in the forum you are going to have to be harsh when dealing with them or they don't understand.

Constructive criticism is meant for people working in the industry, not for people who think they know what DRDO is. My criticisms are mainly aimed at not letting the armed forces personnel get killed because some moron behind a computer thinks DRDO makes world class stuff when he hasn't even seen the gates of a DRDO lab.

Also there is no difference between constructive and destructive criticism here. What do you think are constructive criticisms? You can do constructive criticism when a little kid makes a mistake. When it comes to corporations there is no difference. The ---- up here is people bring in their emotions when none is needed.

Nobody is constructively criticizing Union Carbide, are they? Oops, some guy messed up and a lot of people died. Maybe they should be given a chance too. After all, lives of people, winning and losing wars, people forget such things over time after all. Maybe Union Carbide will learn from the mistake and do better. How's this for constructive criticism?

Let's replace that with DRDO. Oh, we had 2000 troops standing there with DRDO equipment which was inducted in a rush. The enemy was approaching while our troops were dug in. Turns out the ammunition was designed poorly. The enemy rolled over the base killing all 2000 troops. Oops. DRDO messed up. Maybe they will fix things in the future. Let's give them another chance as well.

Heck we were lucky we didn't go to war a few years ago with DRDO made ammunition which was then destroyed by the army because they were ----ed up


You see here? What would have happened had we gone to war against Pakistan during Operation Parakram with defective shells? You tell me how many troops would have died in the process.

Do you know how this was fixed? DRDO did nothing. We had to import from the Russians.

And when was this fixed? Only this year. A good 10 years later.



So, after 150-200k shells were destroyed we are replacing them a good 10 years later. So, what happened to DRDO's great products that we have to resort to importing a shell that was made in the '80s? What do you want the army to do? They bought the indigenous shells, didn't they? What happened after that?

This is what all you people do, only talk. Talk, talk, talk and talk without knowing anything.

After all this we will still have some dumbass who will come up and say why we still import shells and ammunition. Of course, they blame it on the military.

You don't understand how this forum works when it comes to DRDO. Nationalists think everything from DRDO should be bought, I think everything that works and passes the tests in time while still being relevant should be inducted. Deadlines should be maintained.

Do you see me criticizing Akash, Brahmos etc? No. Do you see them inducted in the armed forces? Yes.

Do you see me criticizing LCA, Arjun etc? Yes. Do you seem them properly inducted in the armed forces? No.

Do you even want me to begin criticizing the AMK-340 shells? Hell no. Maybe we should make thousands more just for kicks.

You see where I'm getting at? I don't blindly support the DRDO. I understand where they are good, I understand where they will become good eventually and I know where they are messed up. So, when nationalists support the induction of something that failed, then I am going to speak against it. The only problem here is practically everything DRDO makes falls under this last category.

LCA and Arjun are one of those. There is no point making something 15 years after when it was supposed to be inducted. Threats evolve with time, so do requirements. The requirement changes made by the forces have attempted to keep it relevant, but that doesn't mean it will be successful. If the Americans think the F-22 needs to be replaced, then what about the LCA? What if we go to war against the US in the near future?

So, where is LCA Mk2? It was supposed to be flying early this year.



Somethings don't apply to DRDO. I suppose people should try firing the AMK-340 from a T-72 before talking about DRDO.

One or two successes doesn't mean their failures should be given equal importance.

We have the responsibility to give our soldiers the equipment "they" think they need, not what "we" think they need.
i couldnt agree with you more. :thumb:

but i have a Q for you.
do u think rafale is the ideal choice for MEDIUM multi role ac? i mean there are other medium molti role ACs better than rafale too at same or maybe lower price.

what would you choose if you wer the decision maker.
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

i couldnt agree with you more. :thumb:

but i have a Q for you.
do u think rafale is the ideal choice for MEDIUM multi role ac? i mean there are other medium molti role ACs better than rafale too at same or maybe lower price.
There are no medium aircraft as good as Rafale as far as the IAF is concerned. F-16 and SH are 40 year old technologies with little or no growth. Gripen E is a prototype and Gripen F doesn't exist. Mig-35 also doesn't exist. These aircraft never really had a chance.

The only other aircraft left is the Typhoon, but it turned out to be expensive. That leaves Rafale. Even in 2007, I said that the competition was between Typhoon and Rafale. And I had also said, to quote, "May the cheaper aircraft win." And the cheaper aircraft won as was the policy in DPP2006.

The only other equivalent aircraft that fell within this deal wasn't in the competition, the F-35. The reason is because it didn't fall in the timeline when IAF wanted it.

In many competitions, the Rafale scored more in the technical evaluations than the Typhoon. While I still hold true to the belief that Typhoon is better than Rafale in some air to air aspects, especially BVR, it is inferior to Rafale in many others, like EW, endurance, payload etc. A lot of the weapons that Typhoon uses is available to Rafale also. So, it made Rafale the better choice.

I would recommend going through the Swiss evaluations that the air force leaked when the govt picked Gripen.
 

Zebra

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

That would be disastrous. To be honest.

HAL is company. Not a govt department.

It is owned by govt itself, but still it remains a company.

Avoid bureaucrats or IAF guys as in-charge of Tejas program. Or even as in-charge of HAL itself.

They are the trouble makers.

They will kill it, for sure.

:hail:
 

pramsin

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Rafale is too expensive almost as expensive as F-35. We need fighter air crafts in large numbers to deal with Pakistan and China to gather. That only can happen when we produce our own aircrafts. We know LCA is way behind in technology from Rafale but still we should cancel Rafale deal. We should produce LCA with greater speed and produce at least 18 to 20 per year. Second government should provide more money and support to complete LCA Mk II project. We can use some of LCA Mk I's avionics and can buy some advance avionics from may be France or UK and get the 3 prototype in air in next 2-3 years. Since weaponization of LCA is almost complete there should not be a problem in doing it again on LCA II. So we can start producing these in 5 years. Mean while we should start working with full force on Super Tejus. This will be 2 engine version of LCA and modern avionics an software suite for both Super Tejus and LCA Mk II. Also most of avionics and software development should be given to private companies. If we work diligently Super Tejus's Prototype should be in air may be in 5 to 6 years. We need to involve private companies in production to have larger production capacities.
 
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