Al-Khalid MBT And Pakistani Armour

[p2prada]

haha, the hand painting of the tiger make the Chinese forum very much amused, they think the Indian arm not very serious about military affaires, you know, in Chinese eyes, the white tiger is an impressionist piece of art, not suitable to be on a T99 tank, is give a impression that Indian army are little romantic, not very suitable for a battle.

It's your opinion only. The White tiger exists unlike your own tigers. You should see the IA's other emblems, they are all quite similar.

 

[militarysta]

Two important things:

1) autoloader in Leclerc weight only 500kg, with 22 pieces ammo it's weight 500 + ~440kg(ammo) all - 940kg.
2) turret sides armour from both sides autoloader are thinner then "normal" turret sides armour. Propably it's only about 20-25cm light composit armour againts 30-40mm and RPG SC on the acute angle of hit.

I forgot:

 

[Damian]

Damian,

I am not a mechanical engineer nor do I claim to be a tank expert. You have done a lot of research and you have provided some valuable information and sound analyses.

In this particular case, where you are disagreeing with Armand2REP and Vladimir79, I am compelled to say that you are playing with semantics. It does not matter who call those boxes what. Those are modules as far as I am concerned.
Ever heard of the Kvant-2 module in the then Mir Space Station? It was a storage cum gyrodyne module. Today, the ISS also has storage module.

So that picture you showed is indeed modular in structure. I repeat it is modular in structure. Replace those storage boxes with ERA arrays or ice-cream freezers, it does not matter. It will still remain modular, no matter how much you disagree. Again, I am not saying those storage boxes are armour. No, they are not. However, it is modular. I hope I have made myself clear.

Now let us get over with this playing with semantics, shall we?

But these are only storage boxes bolted to turret and composed in to turret geometry.

By such definition that You propose, any tool box mounted on a tank or other vehicle is modular.

But by any means such tool boxes can be called armor, they offer very, very minimal if any, increase in protection, and for many years now, simple stand off is not very effective against HEAT warheads. These sotrage boxes have to thin bulkheads, and anything stored inside have too small density to increase protection in significant way.

IMHO the whole thing with modular armor on Leclerc is misunderstanding and bad translation. Designers were probably talking about easy replacement of composite inserts, someone understanded this as modular armor and myth is ready, when in fact armor is semi modular like in most MBT's with composite armor, and to replace composite inserts we need to cut off cover plate of armor cavity, replace inserts, and weld on cover plate of armor cavity. It is simple but still not that simple as in case of trully modular armor.

On the other hand semi modular armor have some advantages over modular armor.

Look at Merkava Mk4's that were damaged by bigger HEAT warheads, modular armor seems to be less resistant for mechanical damage than semi modular design... of course this is how it looks in case of Merkava Mk4, other modular designs can be more immune to mechanical damage and have higher stiffness.

Besides this, Militarysta shown photos, we can see on these photos that both turret and hull are all welded constructions with integral composite armor cavitys, not even single sign of modular armor.

So, we will belive in a photos that are worth more than 1000 words, or someones fantasy and holy faith that he knows everything, even if he in his opinions about MBT's only proofs that he have not even single idea about MBT's design, history and service.

 

[militarysta]

IMHO the whole thing with modular armor on Leclerc is misunderstanding and bad translation.

Yes. Leclerc is modular - most important components are modular, and can be easily replaced after damage/faliture. Very many components are duplicated in Leclerc.
Here the French were guided by the doctrine: "on the battlefield quickly exchange - in peacetime - replacement". This facilitates the complete computer diagnostics of the tank components.
What is funny - Lecrec haven't reserve main sight (it only case in western IIIgen. MBT!) becouse is almost complete interchangeability of functions between the commander and gunner.
So leclerc have many modular components, but in my opinion its amour is not modular. There in no one proof that Leclerc armour can be quickly replaced.

 

[Damian]

What is funny - Lecrec haven't reserve main sight (it only case in western IIIgen. MBT!) becouse is almost complete interchangeability of functions between the commander and gunner.

Lack of Gunner Auxiliary Sight (GAS) can be very problematic in many situations, especially in combat when main sight is damaged.

And CITV used as 2nd Gunner Primary Sight (GPS) is nothing new and special, a bit older than Leclerc, basic M1A2 had such capabilities.

So leclerc have many modular components, but in my opinion its amour is not modular. There in no one proof that Leclerc armour can be quickly replaced.

As I said earlier, we have photographs that are proof, Leclerc armor is not modular but semi modular, like in all MBT's with composite armor.

And other components are as modular as in other modern MBT's.

This facilitates the complete computer diagnostics of the tank components.

This feature was a source of many serious problems with Leclerc, I heard that there were cases of wounded crew members because of software bugs and impredictible failures with turret drives.

Also there were serious problems with engine diagnostic and control software, even small bit of dust was seen by sensors as a threat to engine and engine was shut down by computer... I don't even know why the hell they need such electronic sensors that control engine, there was a problem to design proper filters?

 

[militarysta]

Lack of Gunner Auxiliary Sight (GAS) can be very problematic in many situations, especially in combat when main sight is damaged.

Yes, durring battle it can be problem.

As I said earlier, we have photographs that are proof, Leclerc armor is not modular but semi modular, like in all MBT's with composite armor.

And other components are as modular as in other modern MBT's.

x2

This feature was a source of many serious problems with Leclerc, I heard that there were cases of wounded crew members because of software bugs and impredictible failures with turret drives.

Also there were serious problems with engine diagnostic and control software, even small bit of dust was seen by sensors as a threat to engine and engine was shut down by computer... I don't even know why the hell they need such electronic sensors that control engine, there was a problem to design proper filters?

Well, almost all tanks have problems in they erly series. Beyond the Leopard-2 is the only exception I know

But autodiagnostics in tank is very good solution.

 

[Damian]

Yes, durring battle it can be problem. But replacement after damage takes as I remember about 20min

After the battle You can replace everything, more important is what happens during the battle, without GAS You can be completely blind with damaged GPS, and CITV not allways will be good enough as replacement for GPS.

Well, almost all tanks have problems in they erly series. Beyond the Leopard-2 is the only exception I know

There were also problems with Leopard 2, as far as I remember they had some problems with proper modifications in development stage, but overall Leopard 2 was very conventional and simple machine, they also used some components from Leopard 1 and MBT/KPz-70 that were reliabale, that shortened time and costs.

But autodiagnostics in tank is very good solution.

Yes untill such system is also simple and reliabale, not overcomplicated.

 

[pmaitra]

But these are only storage boxes bolted to turret and composed in to turret geometry.

Yes, but you could replace those storage boxes with armour.

By such definition that You propose, any tool box mounted on a tank or other vehicle is modular.

When did I propose a definition of 'modular?' I simply quoted Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Merriam-Webster Dictionary is not my creation. Please read my post again.

But by any means such tool boxes can be called armor, they offer very, very minimal if any, increase in protection, and for many years now, simple stand off is not very effective against HEAT warheads. These sotrage boxes have to thin bulkheads, and anything stored inside have too small density to increase protection in significant way.

I never said tool boxes are armour. My point is that it is modular in structure and those tool boxes can be replaced with armour modules. Those tool boxes can be taken off and armour bolted on or pasted as suggested by another member.

IMHO the whole thing with modular armor on Leclerc is misunderstanding and bad translation. Designers were probably talking about easy replacement of composite inserts, someone understanded this as modular armor and myth is ready, when in fact armor is semi modular like in most MBT's with composite armor, and to replace composite inserts we need to cut off cover plate of armor cavity, replace inserts, and weld on cover plate of armor cavity. It is simple but still not that simple as in case of trully modular armor.

Yes, we have this misunderstanding because of translation and not using the right words. That is why I mentioned 'semantics.' Perhaps you are right about the details because you probably know more about LeClerc than I do.

On the other hand semi modular armor have some advantages over modular armor.

Could be. I am not countering you on that point.

Look at Merkava Mk4's that were damaged by bigger HEAT warheads, modular armor seems to be less resistant for mechanical damage than semi modular design... of course this is how it looks in case of Merkava Mk4, other modular designs can be more immune to mechanical damage and have higher stiffness.

Besides this, Militarysta shown photos, we can see on these photos that both turret and hull are all welded constructions with integral composite armor cavitys, not even single sign of modular armor.

So, we will belive in a photos that are worth more than 1000 words, or someones fantasy and holy faith that he knows everything, even if he in his opinions about MBT's only proofs that he have not even single idea about MBT's design, history and service.

No comments. I am absorbing information here.

 

[Damian]

Yes, but you could replace those storage boxes with armour.

Yes and? Iit can be done this with any other vehicle, for example side turret storage boxes on M1 Abrams series, we can also replace them with armor, this don't meant that something is modular there.

I never said tool boxes are armour. My point is that it is modular in structure and those tool boxes can be replaced with armour modules. Those tool boxes can be taken off and armour bolted on or pasted as suggested by another member.

As above, You can do this with any other vehicle, and such addon armor will be just addon armor, of course in form of modules but this is only because it is easier to mount separate, smaller modules than one big module/section of armor.

But still, this don't make Leclerc tank with modular armor, all evidence shows us that modular armor in this design do not exist, and there is not even single proof that addon armor modules are existing in reality, maybe there were some projects, but I did not seen in any book or other source, not even single word about such thing.

LeClerc

Leclerc, not LeClerc.

 

[pmaitra]

Yes and? Iit can be done this with any other vehicle, for example side turret storage boxes on M1 Abrams series, we can also replace them with armor, this don't meant that something is modular there.



As above, You can do this with any other vehicle, and such addon armor will be just addon armor, of course in form of modules but this is only because it is easier to mount separate, smaller modules than one big module/section of armor.

But still, this don't make Leclerc tank with modular armor, all evidence shows us that modular armor in this design do not exist, and there is not even single proof that addon armor modules are existing in reality, maybe there were some projects, but I did not seen in any book or other source, not even single word about such thing.

Some sources claim that Leclerc has modular armour. You are saying that it is non-modular or semi-modular (not sure; perhaps you can clarify).

Is there any standard definition of what is 'modular armour?' If you know then please share.

Leclerc, not LeClerc.

Thanks for correcting my spelling about the name of Leclerc. You can also correct plenty of typos in your own posts.

Some more info from another forum and again, I repeat, I do not claim to be an expert.

Bluewings12 6/14/2007 6:43:45 AM There isn 't any "bolt-on" armor on the Leclerc . It is entirely modular , one part get dammaged , you change it for a new one . One must not confuse modular armor with armor add-ons which are used in urban warfare (for better protection vs shape charges fired from rooftops , etc) . Herald : ""I have seen nothing where the LeClerc armor is not just slide in pull out slabbing and where the slab mounts edges are the WEAK seams which can be blown asunder. That is a serious design fault."" You do not know what you 're talking about . It isn 't a serious design fault (?) , it is the best design you can think of . To start with , the slab mounts edges are behind (underneath) the armor modules and are in no way weak . In fact they can hardly be damaged even in case of penetration . It takes less than 20 minutes to change a module , Leclerc having 8 modules on its turret , you can get a brand new turret in less than 3 hours , no other Tank have this feature . Underneath the composite modules , you have the turret 's main armor like on any other Tank . The modules alone can stop a LKE1/DM44 APFSDS fired at 2000m . Since the implementation of the latest composites modules S3 (Leclerc series T10 and T11) , it is believed that only the mighty US round M829-A3 could penetrate the turret , but this round is not even in use in the US because it can damage the breach due to the enormous pressure generated during firing . To my knowledge , only the Leopards 2A5/6s and Swedish strv122 provide a probable same level of protection on the front turret , but not on the sides where Leclerc protection is unmatched . Cheers .

Source: http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/2-18597.aspx

 

[Damian]

Some sources claim that Leclerc has modular armour. You are saying that it is non-modular or semi-modular (not sure; perhaps you can clarify).

So these sources are wrong and are repeating after one source. Semi modular armor is semi modular armor, not modular armor, it is just as simple.

All MBT's with composite armor in integral cavitys have semi modular armor, why? Because there is cavity made from outer and inner RHA plates (or CHA elements) and in this cavity there is multilayer inserts of different materials, this insert can be easy replaced by cutting off cover plate, replacing inserts, welding on cover plate.

Modular armor is just a module of armor, that is replacabale as a whole, and mounted to turret.

This is semi modular design, we can see empty cavitys, in these cavitys there will be placed replacabale multilayer composite inserts.

And this is modular armor, as we can see composite is allready integrated with it's cavity as one replacabale module.

Now the difference is clear?

Is there any standard definition of what is 'modular armour?' If you know then please share.

Probably no, or I do not know anything like this. But by simple logic and examples above we can see what is modular and what is semi modular.

Leclerc use semi modular design as we can see on photos posted earlier.

Bluewings12 6/14/2007 6:43:45 AM There isn 't any "bolt-on" armor on the Leclerc . It is entirely modular , one part get dammaged , you change it for a new one . One must not confuse modular armor with armor add-ons which are used in urban warfare (for better protection vs shape charges fired from rooftops , etc) .

Herald :
""I have seen nothing where the LeClerc armor is not just slide in pull out slabbing and where the slab mounts edges are the WEAK seams which can be blown asunder. That is a serious design fault.""

You do not know what you 're talking about . It isn 't a serious design fault (?) , it is the best design you can think of .
To start with , the slab mounts edges are behind (underneath) the armor modules and are in no way weak . In fact they can hardly be damaged even in case of penetration . It takes less than 20 minutes to change a module , Leclerc having 8 modules on its turret , you can get a brand new turret in less than 3 hours , no other Tank have this feature .
Underneath the composite modules , you have the turret 's main armor like on any other Tank .
The modules alone can stop a LKE1/DM44 APFSDS fired at 2000m . Since the implementation of the latest composites modules S3 (Leclerc series T10 and T11) , it is believed that only the mighty US round M829-A3 could penetrate the turret , but this round is not even in use in the US because it can damage the breach due to the enormous pressure generated during firing .

To my knowledge , only the Leopards 2A5/6s and Swedish strv122 provide a probable same level of protection on the front turret , but not on the sides where Leclerc protection is unmatched .

Cheers .

Another BS made by another amateur. And especially funny is:

but this round is not even in use in the US because it can damage the breach due to the enormous pressure generated during firing .

I wonder how US tank crews can fire this rounds, and are using them as current standard issued ammunition. Yeah, this is how credible are these "specialists"...

To my knowledge , only the Leopards 2A5/6s and Swedish strv122 provide a probable same level of protection on the front turret , but not on the sides where Leclerc protection is unmatched .

Yes, "knowledge" of this person is really "huge"... he should go back to school first and restart his education, then he should start to read something credible about MBT's and later he should start any discussion on high level, not a pure propaganda BS talk.

 

[militarysta]

Yes, but you could replace those storage boxes with armour.

No, You can't.

Sorry - but for last decade I don't even heard rumors about exist external "modular armour" in Leclerc. Like famous wedges on Leopard-2A5-A7. There is no one proof, rumor, etc about external ERA/NERA/SLERA/NxRA which can replaced those tool boxes.
Even Leclerc-Azur have this tool-boxes.

 

[pmaitra]

All MBT's with composite armor in integral cavitys have semi modular armor, why? Because there is cavity made from outer and inner RHA plates (or CHA elements) and in this cavity there is multilayer inserts of different materials, this insert can be easy replaced by cutting off cover plate, replacing inserts, welding on cover plate.

Modular armor is just a module of armor, that is replacabale as a whole, and mounted to turret.

Ok so this explains all. Thank you for providing a definition of modular armour.

 

[pmaitra]

No, You can't.

Sorry - but for last decade I don't even heard rumors about exist external "modular armour" in Leclerc. Like famous wedges on Leopard-2A5-A7. There is no one proof, rumor, etc about external ERA/NERA/SLERA/NxRA which can replaced those tool boxes.
Even Leclerc-Azur have this tool-boxes.

Yes, that is true that there is no evidence that there exists external "modular armour" in Leclerc. So I guess it is upto those who claim to provide pictures or references.

 

[Damian]

Sorry - but for last decade I don't even heard rumors about exist external "modular armour" in Leclerc. Like famous wedges on Leopard-2A5-A7. There is no one proof, rumor, etc about external ERA/NERA/SLERA/NxRA which can replaced those tool boxes.
Even Leclerc-Azur have this tool-boxes.

I was talking with one crew member of Leclerc on TankNet forums few years ago, he only mentioned that inserts in turret cavitys are also placed in or under some sort of resin, so to get in to actuall armor inserts You need to open cavity and cut through this resin. But I don't remember exactly how he described this design.

 

[Damian]

BTW, other interesting tank from europe, Italian C1 Ariete.

http://sobchak.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/cutawayariete.jpg

Here we can see that actually all ammunition is stored in the hull in not isolated weakly protected ammo racks.

http://sobchak.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/f31.jpg

This photo shows that side turret armor is simple RHA, as we can see thanks to opened ammunition loading hatch.

 

[militarysta]

I made stupid mistake about Leclerc sides.

Proper value:

 

[JAYRAM]

Myanmar Army getting Norinco MBT2000 / VT1A?

Recently, the Myanmar Army posted a video of what appears to be a Norinco MBT2000 / VT1A under trial.

If true Myanmar will join table with Bangladesh operating Norinco MBT2000..

 

[JAYRAM]

 

[JAYRAM]