AH-64E Apache attack helicopter

[Adux]

I agree with your assessment. It looks like in every case - the IAF picked the best hardware available to them.

All this crap about making amends and doing Boeing a favor for losing out on the MRCA is just that - total crap.
The AH-64 block3 is far ahead of anything out there.

Adding to that, People over here seldom notice but thankfully the professionals do is the up time. What is the use of you having the best platform, when its mission availability time is less than 50%? This has been one of the most famous issues with Russian hardware, the reliability as in case with the AK-47 has never really transferred to other weapon system,especially aircraft. MiG-25, Mi-26, Kamov's etc etc are very very good examples. Apache might not be the fastest, but it is up in the air, it might not be the most armored but atleast it can see farther and shoot farther, beyond the range of the enemy.

 

[Ray]

I would only like to add is that weakness in any equipment should be made up in the tactics used for its employment.

But the main issue is that it should be capable of getting into the air, even rarefied air!

 

[Adux]

, not to mention the sale of the Kitty Hawk!

.

Where did that come from?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have fired the 2A42 AP and it bounced off the side of a BMP-2 at 900m. We need a new 30mm class gun because it does not pack a punch.

I have to disagree on this, I have been in BMP-2 and i have witness it can punch through Side Armour of a tank that is Vicker types or 2 concrete walls from 500-1000m..

This isn't decision of significance unless of course it is intend to kill LCH and following projects. Hate to repeat again, the logic given earlier for diversifying the procurement was to avoid putting all eggs in one basket but as i see only the basket has been changed and eggs are being transferred to that. C-17, C-130J, AH-64 Longbow, Chinook is sure thing etc.

LCH already got orders from Army as well as Air-force, though procurement of these 22 helos in which only 12 are Longbows are too small in huge place like Western sector, But it possible to use them in Eastern sector where we have Armour on narrow mountain passes..

Army is interested in Chinook, Air-force is getting MI-17V5..

Where did that come from?

Once offered by US, Rejected by MOD for good..

 

[p2prada]

There works a strong US lobby. In days when everything is bought through Open Tenders, government favors FMS for US made hardware. If that is not all despite all kinds of malicious practices not even a single US firm has been blacklisted so far, when we have half the world on MoD's blacklist. Guess, that's what superpower means.

About lack of American companies in blacklist. I am in touch with an American guy who had worked for Lockheed Martin for over 10 years. He is one of the guys who travels to all the countries with military deals for inspections. According to the him defence companies in America do not resort to malpractice of any sort even if they stand to lose the tender. If you remember there was an incident where Bell Helicopter pulled out of a tender for supplying 197 helis to India. In the media they said Bell did not have time to submit their offset obligations and that the offsets were too much. Actually that was a lie, they pulled out because of bribery allegations. According to my source Bell can handle that size of order and that the their real reason was lack of transparency and outright bribery allegations.

Well, it was his opinion anyway but this was in 2008. It was actually after Bell incident that things in India changed as well, MoD took the bribery allegations quite seriously and the deal with Eurocopter was canceled.

Indian MOD Blacklist Seven Firms For Doing Business In India | India Defence Online

This was after the Bell incident and India re-tendered the contract after that to include more helicopters.
India to float $2 bn military helicopter tender - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

And then decreased by half to accommodate HAL's wish of manufacturing half of them in the form of LUH.

So, all in all what he said makes sense. Unfortunately Bell did not come back after the re-tender. The deal is in the limbo now.

It's simple, if an American company is seen to be pulling out of a deal due to some silly reason, expect malpractice. Lobbying is a separate aspect and is not a malpractice.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

But the main issue is that it should be capable of getting into the air, even rarefied air!

With low payload, It can operate in high altitudes same as LCH, But LCH is specifically deigned for High altitudes..

 

[Neil]

You are right to a certain extent. The Soviet Army had similar issues with the Mil-24/35 in Afghanistan. They had to do rolling takeoffs. They have addressed those shortcomings in the Mil-28N and also introduced the Mil-28N rotors in the old Mil-24/35s. However, it still is too heavy for the Himalayas. Is the AH-64 good? Perhaps better than Mil-28N, but then we have our own LCH specifically designed for the Himalayan heights.

Again, note that we have Mil-28N as a gunship at one end of the spectrum and the Mil-17 as a troop transporter at the other end. Mil-24/35 sits right in the middle fusing both the roles. Hence, Mil-28N is better optimised for assault and will not have the extra load of the passenger compartment and the passengers (save a small space for rescuing pilots of downed helicopters which will be rarely used anyway).

Just like Ray Sir said below, you can either have a light helicopter that is vulnerable or have a rock solid flying bunker that cannot go to the heights. You cannot have both. It's a matter of trade-off.

it really is....sir but i didnt understand the underlined part...can u please explain a little bit more...??!!

 

[Ray]

With low payload, It can operate in high altitudes same as LCH, But LCH is specifically deigned for High altitudes..

Which one with low payload?

What will have to be discarded for low payload?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Which one with low payload?

What will have to be discarded for low payload?

Sir,
For Apache to conduct operation at altitudes such as Kargil, The Ammo of cannon which is 1200rnds can be reduced to 500-250 rnds, further from 8 hell fire missiles it can carry two or four on both wings, Or the combination of only rockets with Cannon..

For LCH:
If their is an issue occurred with weight the ammo of the cannon can be reduced, and number of rocket pods, though LCH is made for those altitudes, though LCH is deign for high altitudes..





Thanks

 

[JBH22]

There's a laser guided version now of the H-70 Hydra rockets (APKWS).

Russian have the its equivalent its called ugroza (Menace) its sad that the Mi-28 lost but anyways i always preferred the KA-52

 

[Adux]

Once offered by US, Rejected by MOD for good..

I am aware of that Kunal, I had made extensive posts of it in MP.net during the time of Adm.Mehta. The pro's and con's of that acquisition. It was never in an offer, truth be told. India never asked for it, US never offered it. You can find Adm.Mehta's quotes on it. It all started on the visit of Kitty Hawk to Bay of Bengal for Malabar 07, when an American officer said on a hypothetical scenario, the idiots that are Defense journalist of India, made that into an offer.

 

[mayfair]

Any indications about how many will be equipped with Longbow? Some reports claim that it may only be a subset. That would be exceedingly daft in my opinion.

 

[JBH22]

'India agreed to buy US defence products in return for deal'

Did India commit to buying more defence products from the US in return for the nuclear deal? Former secretary of state Condoleezza Rice hints to a purported undertaking in her upcoming book on her years in the Bush administration.

'India agreed to buy US defence products in return for deal' « readiscover


In short we are becoming US surrogates subjected to arm twisting from the white house

 

[JBH22]

double post

 

[ashdoc]

can anybody tell why this news is not appearing on any indian website ??

of course ,there can be no fuel without fire . if the russians are themselves admitting that their copter lost the competition , the news must be true .

in the cut-throat defence sector no one admits failure before it actually happens.

 

[ace009]

Where did that come from?

Crap - My bad.

I meant the USS Trenton - the INS Jalashwa.

The Kitty Hawk "deal" - more of a non-starter (since the Kitty Hawk was called the Shitty Kitty in USN), was never on ...

 

[ashdoc]

well ,one indian website does give the news--but probably copied from a russian website

Russia loses tender for Mi-28N helicopters to India [newKerala.com News # 94265]

 

[Damian]

Any indications about how many will be equipped with Longbow? Some reports claim that it may only be a subset. That would be exceedingly daft in my opinion.

There is no need to mount AN/APG-77 on all helicopters, if there are 4 machines flying in formation, one of them can act as commanding unit, this one machine with Longbow radar can actually seek, identify and engage targets using not only missiles that it carry but also missiles from other machines.

I think that people still think that all helicopters need to guide their missiles alone, heck, even in 80's if in formation of AH-64A's, ther was OH-58, this one small bird could seek, identify targets and guide missiles for the entire AH-64A's formation, so big birds didn't need to expose themselfes, still it was not perfect solution, Longbow radar is much better.

 

[asianobserve]

(self-deleted)

 

[ace009]

@ Damian, is there any radar in operation/ development that is similar to the Longbow?