AH-64E Apache attack helicopter

[Ray]

The

Ray,

We will digress from the main topic and open another thread for it.
In short, yes, yes and yes... things are diffrent in environment, methods of execution and even may be in nature of tasks.

So long you have understood, it is adequate.

Not maybe. It depends on the task they are to perform and the equipment essential to do so! Therefore, it would not be surprising if there are, as it is said, attachments/ detachments.

The MMG Platoon of yore of the Support Company has now been distributed amongst the Rifle Companies, since it was felt that a greater volume of fire was essential in modern battle and should be under the Company Commander's control!

The Stretcher Bearers of the past has been disbanded because air evacuation was supposed to be the norm. That is still a pipedream and in the interim, ............

Now soldiers from the Company have to evacuate, reducing what is called 'the bayonet strength'!

We keep adding weapons and there is no increase in the manpower or the change in organisation (except cosmetic) and so one has become confused as to the rationale for the number of personnel of a sub unit/ unit. It is all improvise to meet the immediate requirement.

They cut down on the Pioneers and the AT Companies and we came to a sorry pass in Kargil where civilians were used and civil donkeys who bolted with the first shot fired!

That is why I merely smirk when I see people gloating over new 'sexy' weapons and equipment and feel that the IA or the Indian armed forces MUST buy them pronto or else they are nude!!

There is even serious and acrimonious debates on many forums as to what is the ideal design for a camouflage uniform!!

All this is for information. Take it for what it is worth and is OT.

 

[Yusuf]

Kunal why isn't the option of another 22 not required? Threats are only increasing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kunal why isn't the option of another 22 not required? Threats are only increasing.

They intend to use more than 105 LCH with 44 or more Apache ?

Fine if so..

 

[Bhadra]

People here while debating about the merits and demerits of Russian / USSR philosophy and NATO / US philosophies of hellicopters are missing on the basic doctrines followed by the two sides. While the USSR belived in superirity of mass and offensive actions, NATO was intent to defeat the mass and svae Europe from the Russian thrusts. The USSR thus developed most of their weapon systems to produce a superior mass of fire, assault , equipment and boots to win. Their reliance was on more firepower, more assaults, deep thrusts (thus behind the enemy line operations) and deep support to such thrusts of OMG. Russian Havocs were developed to meet this doctrinal requirements. Dash forward quickly, put lots of fire power on the objecive and be able to land troops. Classically, MI-24 were thus assault hepters.

On the contrary, the NATO developed accurate systems to dissecen, follow, bring to killing ground and acurately distroy. That results in technically accurate system resulting in attack hepters. Russian system by their characterstics are assault hepters incapable of lower flights, less hovering, less staying capacity in the engagement areas and less menouvre.

MI -28 and Hokum are the only Russian attempt to produce attack hellicopters. Appache is the third generation in its own line and is a good attack hepter rather than being an forward dashing assault hepter.

Now, why does Indian need an attack hepter. Does it need attack or assault hepters? ask yourselves these question and one gets a clear cut answer> There is no skull drudgery in this ! If I need to take out Pakistani nukes, I would need MI - 28. If I need to spearhead or stop an armour thrust lines, I would require Appaches.

 

[bhramos]

Now, why does Indian need an attack hepter. Does it need attack or assault hepters? ask yourselves these question and one gets a clear cut answer> There is no skull drudgery in this ! If I need to take out Pakistani nukes, I would need MI - 28. If I need to spearhead or stop an armour thrust lines, I would require Appaches.

India needs Apaches, as Indian Govt would never try into take Pak nukes, or take any offensive position neither east nor west.........

 

[Ray]

The doctrine concepts as enunciated are correct to a great extent.

One requires to read the chapter Rotary wing Revolution of Brig Simpkins ( an accepted expert of armoured warfare and of the same in Europe) in his book Race to the Swift.

India requires both assault and attack helicopters and the requisite organisational changes given the Threat Analysis and its Doctrines.

 

[Yusuf]

The role of the helos tendered for is not to take out Paki nukes. CAS is primary. We also don't want to kill en masse like the Soviets did in Astan. Given all options Apache is the right choice.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I dont think anyone yet debated on doctrine followed by USSR or US any thing related to their history, may be as example..

What we are talking in the thread is how these are better suited to our own doctrine..

Russian Helos are quite good in precision attacks like MI-24/25/35..

Why we need gunship assault with Armour and infantry in one word combine arm assault to take over nukes ?

 

[arya]

dont you think the distance between us and russia is getting wide day by day

 

[sayareakd]

hope by getting these we are going to get look at their tech.................and get inspired from some of them.

 

[Tshering22]

Would sorely miss the absence of a solid Mil line of gunship in our arsenal after having seen the Krocodil so many years. Mi-28 was a sturdy platform that was rejected only on political grounds.

 

[Yusuf]

Would sorely miss the absence of a solid Mil line of gunship in our arsenal after having seen the Krocodil so many years. Mi-28 was a sturdy platform that was rejected only on political grounds.

Oye!! What's the CT? Nothing political here.

 

[JBH22]

The role of the helos tendered for is not to take out Paki nukes. CAS is primary. We also don't want to kill en masse like the Soviets did in Astan. Given all options Apache is the right choice.

Another western propaganda on the Mi-24 this chopper was used for convoy protection and many other duties not only for the so called scorched earth policy that it usually alluded to.
As to Apache is better or not i leave that to IAF experts...

 

[Yusuf]

Another western propaganda on the Mi-24 this chopper was used for convoy protection and many other duties not only for the so called scorched earth policy that it usually alluded to.
As to Apache is better or not i leave that to IAF experts...

Yeah and the experts have made their choice.

 

[JBH22]

Yeah and the experts have made their choice.

Hopefully these experts won't come back years later whining about lack of spare parts as was the case with Sea King fleet or whine as in the case of Mig-27 terming the plane having inherent structural and engine flaws...
In India experts tend to change overnight so let's rejoice atleast something instead of nothing even a Cheetah inducted should be cause of celebration..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Tshering22,

IAF is buying C-17, SOF C-130J which are best transport you can get at those price, A A-400 cost same as C-17 which gives same capability as C-130J, IAF and MOD are confident abt US product and Indian and US future, Long Bow is indeed superiro to MI-28 in Radar guided ATGM Tech, There fore it won..

 

[sayareakd]

guys look at this way, we have Russian attack helicopter, we know it well. We develop LCH, we know it, now we have other option to look at what USA has to offer, it has some of the features we are interested in.

We have two enemies waiting to have war with us (one way or the other), therefore some new weapon system wont be bad idea, if it can dominate the battle field.

As i said in my last post it has enough mall to get inspiration. Plus with growing and stable economy we can afford these toys.

 

[Bhadra]

Waht India needs for the Time?

With all due respect to all auagust memebrs here, I would like to put acquisition bid of attack hepter in due perpective here as I would have understood it irrespective of the service, class or category I blong to:

Firstly, what is the immediate grave concern of Armed Forces with respct to our external threat:

First and foremeost : Vastly superior Chinese infrasture in Tibet and their ability to induct their Armour and mechnised elements into Tibet to utilise those to carry out quick attack against India. Infantry attacks are time consuming and slow and hence, Chinese would use their mechanised assets of Air assualt QRF and ingress quickly at about forve six points. To defeat this design, we need not only infantry ponderance at those points but ability to defeat Chinese machanised spearheads there. Due to poor Indian infrastructure, attack hellicopters would be big assets.

Second and equally Important. In order to deter Pakistan and its proxy Jehadies, the ability of Indian Forces to mount multiple assaults as punitive measures is a must which will succeed on the sucess of speardeading mechanised columns. Attack hepters are essentail for it.

Third and the most engaging utilisation : Insurgency in the Urban and modern conditions: right from J&K to Jharkhand, Bombay and Delhi, Armed Forces need to take on terrorism of all kinds within and urban environment. That would call on No cllateral damadge, absolute accuracy, immidiate response and pin pointed firepower.

Fourth, ability of the hepters to be employed from a ship ?? Se our requirements !

This is the task and the call. Now tell me, considering the technical characterstics, armament, weapons etc what should India choose?

What is going to foot the bill? Lighter apaches or heavier MI -28? I would stll employ comination of AH - 64 and MI - 24. First kill and isloate, then assault and destroy and finally be their on ground with boots?

Will DRDO keep these requirements in mind for LAH and LCH. India needs multimode, multitasked, and mutlti utility hepters. But for cold starts 40 odd are still less. India needs cold start to throw away its cold !

 

[p2prada]

Third and the most engaging utilisation : Insurgency in the Urban and modern conditions: right from J&K to Jharkhand, Bombay and Delhi, Armed Forces need to take on terrorism of all kinds within and urban environment. That would call on No cllateral damadge, absolute accuracy, immidiate response and pin pointed firepower.

You cannot reduce collateral damage from the air. Identification of targets is difficult in urban environments.

Fourth, ability of the hepters to be employed from a ship ?? Se our requirements !

Navy may opt for the LCH, they won't get Apaches or Mi-28s.

What is going to foot the bill?

The taxpayer of course.

Lighter apaches or heavier MI -28?

That comparison does not matter. Engine efficiency matters along with power. Apache with it's new engine wins hands down. Both have similar payloads and at similar combat radius. Mi-28 has less mature avionics. We can say the Mi-28 may have lost by a few points out of hundreds. So no point simply calling something similar as inferior.

I would stll employ comination of AH - 64 and MI - 24.

"What is going to foot the bill?" when even the taxpayer cannot simply afford the idiocy of having multiple helis and a bloated logistics chain. One type is enough in the heavy category and one in the light.

First kill and isloate, then assault and destroy and finally be their on ground with boots?

Tactics work differently in different situations. You need boots on the ground in order to identify or paint targets most of the time.

Will DRDO keep these requirements in mind for LAH and LCH. India needs multimode, multitasked, and mutlti utility hepters.

As technology matures so will our helicopters. Don't expect things to work out overnight, we may need a decade to work out the chinks let alone call it mature or proven.

But for cold starts 40 odd are still less. India needs cold start to throw away its cold !

You cannot say that for sure. Even 22 may be enough for cold start. Maybe we need hundreds, but can we afford so many?

 

[Adux]

I dont think i remember i said MI-28 is better or worst..

Sorry bud, you got me wrong, I never said you supported this or that, I have read enough of your posts to know that.

What i told is what member ( Ace ) asked to Damian..

I know, it was a general comment. Not a brownie scoring point.

Adux, More posts of your heading only towards Anti-Russian, Anti-hal, Pro-US, Do we need in Apache thread ?

Now you are really wrong here, and I am not anything except pro-india and pro-armed forces