Agni V Missile

[no smoking]

How do you know that the bombs were 1 ton in weight? Did you see them?

No, I said if the picture of your testing device was too big. There is no way you can build a 300kg MIRV warhead based on size of device.

There were 6 tests for a reason. Different types of bombs were used. 1 bomb was H-bomb with 45kT blast. 45kT is a reasonable size for being H-bomb. This also shows miniaturization

Here is the problem: the scientists outside India estimated the actual total detonated was only 12kt for all 3 bombs on 11/05. So, everyone except Indians believes that was a H-bomb until today. More importantly, you can't go straight to test the miniaturization without a full scale MT bomb test first. A full scale test is a necessary step to prove your related physical theories.

 

[Kshithij]

No, I said if the picture of your testing device was too big. There is no way you can build a 300kg MIRV warhead based on size of device.


Here is the problem: the scientists outside India estimated the actual total detonated was only 12kt for all 3 bombs on 11/05. So, everyone except Indians believes that was a H-bomb until today. More importantly, you can't go straight to test the miniaturization without a full scale MT bomb test first. A full scale test is a necessary step to prove your related physical theories.

No picture was released about warhead. It is only representation by dome media folk.

Even god can't save those who think that the nuclear tests yielded 12kT entirely.

Yes, a 100kT + bomb is needed to prove H-bomb ability. But, megaton is not necessary as H-bomb is scalable

 

[no smoking]

No picture was released about warhead. It is only representation by dome media folk.

Well, it was the India government provided the picture to media.

Even god can't save those who think that the nuclear tests yielded 12kT entirely.

Or God can't help India convince the whole world that the nuclear tests yield was 45kt in total.

Yes, a 100kT + bomb is needed to prove H-bomb ability. But, megaton is not necessary as H-bomb is scalable

That was the problem. H-bomb can be scaled down deliberately, however it can also be a fizzle, or partly failed. That is why all P5 did mt test first: their scientists could be sure that their h-bomb theory is correct. It is like building a house: MT h-bomb is the most basic part of the whole field, like the foundation of the house while the following minimization is the upper level.

 

[Screambowl]

Here's official leak on Loksabha TV about Agni-5 being MIRV with 3 war heads and true range of it being 8000 kms..............

Jingo Khus Hua......:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

You know chinese had told this when it was tested for the first time.
It's worrisome how come they were able to know exact range and everything. Looks like lapse.

Missile technology is tested in satellite. Remember India launched 104 satellites which are orbiting in slightly different orbit and don't collide? That is MIRV technology.

What you mentioned is MRV not MIRV

The difference is MRV cannot be maneuvered but MIRV can be even while Reentry.

The problem with MIRV is it's light and at those high speeds it's become close to uncontrollable.

 

[jat]

You know chinese had told this when it was tested for the first time.
It's worrisome how come they were able to know exact range and everything. Looks like lapse.

ha.
Any one with a general idea of the length diameter can assume the weight, and therefore the range.
The Indian Gov might be downplaying the range as to make it not hit the news in Amrika or Europe. People are sacred of WMD. That being said the exact range is never given up to anyone other than operators.
For instance the Akash, and Buk missiles are not 30 or 40 KM in range. They are closer to 70 to 150 kM in range. Look at their size and weight. The Buk missile being a bopy of Rim missiles of the US is likily got a similar range.
Notice the range of the Akash battery radar. Its also not the exact range specifications. Every SAM downplays the range of the missile and radar.
Agni being more strategic will have its user manual hidden in file cabinet at the MoD.

 

[no smoking]

You know chinese had told this when it was tested for the first time. It's worrisome how come they were able to know exact range and everything. Looks like lapse.

Don't worry, he doesn't know your range. What he was talking is trying to expand Indian missile range to cover Europe with common sense: you can increase the range by reducing the payload. However, this kind of reduction generally is meaningless in military as your payload is decided by the weight of your warhead available not a random guess. So, this Chinese's words don't prove anything.

 

[AnantS]

Well, it was the India government provided the picture to media.

Indian Govt did not tell whether the picture was of thermo nuke or of the one pulled from earlier stock. Its only public speculation..

 

[Kshithij]

Indian Govt did not tell whether the picture was of thermo nuke or of the one pulled from earlier stock. Its only public speculation..

That is not shaped like a warhead. The picture quality appears to be taken from a negative based camera and hence possibly 1974 test

 

[AnantS]

That is not shaped like a warhead. The picture quality appears to be taken from a negative based camera and hence possibly 1974 test

No, pic is of 98 , I was alluding to device, it could be one from older late 80's stock(which would have slight improvement over Shakti 1 device) or other device. We do not know

 

[Kshithij]

No, pic is of 98 , I was alluding to device, it could be one from older late 80's stock(which would have slight improvement over Shakti 1 device) or other device. We do not know

It definitely doesn't look like a warhead. It looks like a test device. But, it doesn't appear to be properly shaped.

 

[AnantS]

It definitely doesn't look like a warhead. It looks like a test device. But, it doesn't appear to be properly shaped.

yes could be .

 

[Kay]

It was likely Shakti1 (thermonuclear test) in Pokhran 2 fizzed and the secondary exploded partially. Shakti 1 was a thermonuclear device and not a weaponised warhead.
For deterrence, we rely on pure fission and boosted fission warheads.
Shakti 2 was a lightweight weaponised pure fission lightweight warhead of 12 KT.
Shakti 1 had a 15KT boosted fission primary which was tested successfully and can be weaponised with high confidence and scaled up to 200KT with high confidence.
Our current warheads are:
Pure fission - 12-15 KT - <250 Kg - High Confidence
Boosted Fission - 15-20 KT - <250 Kg - High Confidence
Boosted fission - 200KT - 750-1000Kg - High Confidence
Thermonuclear - 200KT - 450 -500 Kg - Partial Confidence (Expected yield would be higher than Shakti 1 - 25KT - 35 KT)
Source: Bharat Verma

The 200 KT boosted fission warhead would probably be similar to MR 41 warhead of France and would be difficult to use in MIRV because of dimensions.

Considering weight and dimensions, we can have a MIRVed missile with 3-4 warheads of minimum 25-35 KT each, or 5-6 warheads of 20 KT each - all good enough options for deterrence.
An MIRVed Agni V will have a destructive power of 8 times the only nuclear weapons used and capable of hitting our adversaries anywhere when launched from any place in India. So, at this point, further testing of thermonuclear weapons serve no purpose other than theoritical pursuit of perfection - but have heavy downside.

 

[EXPERT]

Are Prithvi I and II tactical missiles?
can anyone clarify on this with a source?

What i know is, we have : Prahar, Pragati, BrahMos, and Nirbhay
Doubts on Pralay, Shaurya, Prithvi series.

 

[Kay]

Are Prithvi I and II tactical missiles?
can anyone clarify on this with a source?

What i know is, we have : Prahar, Pragati, BrahMos, and Nirbhay
Doubts on Pralay, Shaurya, Prithvi series.

Prithvis are liquid fuelled old missiles and will be replaced soon - Prithvi 1 with Prahaar and Prithvi2 with Agni 1P.

 

[Kshithij]

It was likely Shakti1 (thermonuclear test) in Pokhran 2 fizzed and the secondary exploded partially. Shakti 1 was a thermonuclear device and not a weaponised warhead.
For deterrence, we rely on pure fission and boosted fission warheads.
Shakti 2 was a lightweight weaponised pure fission lightweight warhead of 12 KT.
Shakti 1 had a 15KT boosted fission primary which was tested successfully and can be weaponised with high confidence and scaled up to 200KT with high confidence.
Our current warheads are:
Pure fission - 12-15 KT - <250 Kg - High Confidence
Boosted Fission - 15-20 KT - <250 Kg - High Confidence
Boosted fission - 200KT - 750-1000Kg - High Confidence
Thermonuclear - 200KT - 450 -500 Kg - Partial Confidence (Expected yield would be higher than Shakti 1 - 25KT - 35 KT)
Source: Bharat Verma

The 200 KT boosted fission warhead would probably be similar to MR 41 warhead of France and would be difficult to use in MIRV because of dimensions.

Considering weight and dimensions, we can have a MIRVed missile with 3-4 warheads of minimum 25-35 KT each, or 5-6 warheads of 20 KT each - all good enough options for deterrence.

All wrong. Thermonuclear warheads weigh 200kg for 200kT. No one uses boosted fission for anything above 40kT. Boosted fission is plutonium heavy while H-bomb needs little plutonium and mostly Deuterium, Tritium and U238 (fully depleted Uranium).

250kg for 20kT bomb is extremely horrible design. I am sure this is not the case.

45kT may not be fizzle. The Indian scientists tried to answer many questions about it but eventually realized that westerners were fooling India into handing over sensitive data of tests as proof by this tactic and hence stopped defending it. Thermonuclear bombs can be scaled to any extent. They just kept it low weight.

The warhead is made to be as small as possible. Look at W88 or W87 or W78 warheads - almost 1kg per 1kT.

Are Prithvi I and II tactical missiles?
can anyone clarify on this with a source?

What i know is, we have : Prahar, Pragati, BrahMos, and Nirbhay
Doubts on Pralay, Shaurya, Prithvi series.

Prithvi 1 & 2 are not tactical missile. They are liquid fuel and will be phased out. Prithvi 3 is a short ranged missile.

Prahaar will replace Prithvi 1 as the tactical missile of 150km range. Prithvi 2 may not be replaced. Pragati is export variant of prahaar. Irrelevant for India.

Shaurya is a semi cruise cum ballistic missile. It is highly maneuverable and has 700km range.

 

[Kay]

All wrong. Thermonuclear warheads weigh 200kg for 200kT. No one uses boosted fission for anything above 40kT. Boosted fission is plutonium heavy while H-bomb needs little plutonium and mostly Deuterium, Tritium and U238 (fully depleted Uranium).

250kg for 20kT bomb is extremely horrible design. I am sure this is not the case.

45kT may not be fizzle. The Indian scientists tried to answer many questions about it but eventually realized that westerners were fooling India into handing over sensitive data of tests as proof by this tactic and hence stopped defending it. Thermonuclear bombs can be scaled to any extent. They just kept it low weight.

The warhead is made to be as small as possible. Look at W88 or W87 or W78 warheads - almost 1kg per 1kT.


Prithvi 1 & 2 are not tactical missile. They are liquid fuel and will be phased out. Prithvi 3 is a short ranged missile.

Prahaar will replace Prithvi 1 as the tactical missile of 150km range. Prithvi 2 may not be replaced. Pragati is export variant of prahaar. Irrelevant for India.

Shaurya is a semi cruise cum ballistic missile. It is highly maneuverable and has 700km range.

Americans did a lot more testing than us. I am sure we can design lighter warheads today, but without testing they will not be used.

 

[lcafanboy]

All wrong. Thermonuclear warheads weigh 200kg for 200kT. No one uses boosted fission for anything above 40kT. Boosted fission is plutonium heavy while H-bomb needs little plutonium and mostly Deuterium, Tritium and U238 (fully depleted Uranium).

250kg for 20kT bomb is extremely horrible design. I am sure this is not the case.

45kT may not be fizzle. The Indian scientists tried to answer many questions about it but eventually realized that westerners were fooling India into handing over sensitive data of tests as proof by this tactic and hence stopped defending it. Thermonuclear bombs can be scaled to any extent. They just kept it low weight.

The warhead is made to be as small as possible. Look at W88 or W87 or W78 warheads - almost 1kg per 1kT.


Prithvi 1 & 2 are not tactical missile. They are liquid fuel and will be phased out. Prithvi 3 is a short ranged missile.

Prahaar will replace Prithvi 1 as the tactical missile of 150km range. Prithvi 2 may not be replaced. Pragati is export variant of prahaar. Irrelevant for India.

Shaurya is a semi cruise cum ballistic missile. It is highly maneuverable and has 700km range.

Americans did a lot more testing than us. I am sure we can design lighter warheads today, but without testing they will not be used.

Are you aware nowadays computer simulation is used to design nuclear weapons and check effects of half life of nuclear core? And you don't need physical testing of weapons or dismantling and retesting weapons after a few years to check if core is okay. India is one of the few countries which posses this technology.

Apart from that I want to disclose that we have demanded access to French nuclear weapon simulator which is more advanced than we have with Rafale deal and French have obliged (of course for heavy payment covered under offset). So take a chill pill India is having one of the most advance nuclear weapons program just like we have one of the most advance civilian nuclear program...............

 

[Willy2]

Are you aware nowadays computer simulation is used to design nuclear weapons and check effects of half life of nuclear core? And you don't need physical testing of weapons or dismantling and retesting weapons after a few years to check if core is okay. India is one of the few countries which posses this technology.

The same discussion happens here in DFI once before ,despite all these super-computer/ simulator we can never reach the proficiency of P5 nation who tasted these nukes thousands of time and perfected these design based on live results...whats ur opinion ?

 

[Kshithij]

The same discussion happens here in DFI once before ,despite all these super-computer/ simulator we can never reach the proficiency of P5 nation who tasted these nukes thousands of time and perfected these design based on live results...whats ur opinion ?

You are absolutely correct. We can never have the guarantee without testing. But, the thousands of testing is not needed. Look at North Korea for example.

We need tests with sufficient spacing of time. In today's supercomputer world, it is possible to get things done with lesser number of tests.

We need to wait for oil to deplete before testing. For now, stockpiling large quantities of fissile material is enough. When tests can be done, then all bombs can be assembled at once.

 

[sayareakd]

Indian Govt did not tell whether the picture was of thermo nuke or of the one pulled from earlier stock. Its only public speculation..

Thermo nuke, going into A2, that size is for A2 only.