Agni V Missile

[pmaitra]

Your post takes me here :-


In both of your links you have quoted the blog of Ajay Shukla who received the info that "the Agni-5 could easily be ramped up into an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), with a range of more than 5500 kilometres" from DRDO Sources while the DRDO chief himself has said that it's missile with maximum range upto 5,800 kilometers, now i don't think that those DRDO Sources are more reliable than DRDO chief himself. And decreasing the payload to increase the range doesn't fall into the criteria of "Modification to the basic design" i think, so i'll take it Agni 5 an an ICBM.

Correct, and that is why I said the missile we tested was not an ICBM, neither have we built an ICBM and cut its range. What we have can be 'ramped up' to cross that 5,500 km barrier, but then that's it. Also, notice, I said if we build a 8,000-10,000 km ICBM, it will be much larger. We have no tested and demonstrated ICBM capability. It is only theoretical and hypothetical. I am repeating this for the umpteenth time. Please correct me if I have said even a single thing wrong. The DRDO chief is saying the same thing, if the missile is modified, it can have a range of 5,500 to 5,800 km. Ajay Shukla did not specify those numbers. However, that will not change the fact that the missile we tested was not an ICBM.

Edit: Talking of reliability, you should see my comment in the thread, where Mr. Chander says few hundred meters CEP and the news anchor immediately twists that. Look for that comment. Do not trust new reports. Trust what has happened in real life. What has not happened is speculation.

Edit: Also, if they use a lighter payload, they will probably add more fuel capacity ('ramped up' [sic.]), so to me, that is a modification. However, if they do not add any fuel capacity, and the only change is in the warhead size, then it is no modification. Will that take the missile from 5,000 km to 5,5000 km? We do not know. Again, speculation and hypotheses. Call it whatever you want.

 

[Bhadra]

India's missile bamboozle

India's missile bamboozle | The Asian Age

The first hint of Agni-V's ICBM status was dropped by the minister of state for science, Ashwini Kumar, when he referred to the missile re-entering the atmosphere at "24.4 times the speed of sound". Depending on the altitude, this works out to roughly 7.2 to 7.7 kms per second as terminal velocity, making it unquestionably an ICBM, compared to 6.2 to 6.5 kms per second re-entry speed of Agni-IV, which is IRBM performance. Obviously, Agni-V was fired in a high-parabolic trajectory to depress the distance it travelled, which may be why Chinese military sources have claimed that Agni-V's 8,000-km range is being covered up. The Agni has to have a minimum range of 10,000 kms to be considered an ICBM. But

That is the reason !!

 

[A chauhan]

Correct, and that is why I said the missile we tested was not an ICBM, neither have we built an ICBM and cut its range. What we have can be 'ramped up' to cross that 5,500 km barrier, but then that's it. Also, notice, I said if we build a 8,000-10,000 km ICBM, it will be much larger. We have no tested and demonstrated ICBM capability. It is only theoretical and hypothetical. I am repeating this for the umpteenth time. Please correct me if I have said even a single thing wrong. The DRDO chief is saying the same thing, if the missile is modified, it can have a range of 5,500 to 5,800 km. Ajay Shukla did not specify those numbers. However, that will not change the fact that the missile we tested was not an ICBM.

The DRDO chief described Agni V as a 5,000-km plus missile with a maximum range of 5,500-5,800 km.Missile defence system ready for induction, reveals DRDO chief | idrw.org

DRDO Chief didn't talk about modification, he just plainly described it as a missile with a maximum range of 5,800 km. he talked in the present tense, So it clearly means it isa missile with a maximum range of 5,800 km so i'll take it as an ICBM.

Edit: Also, if they use a lighter payload, they will probably add more fuel capacity ('ramped up' [sic.]), so to me, that is a modification. However, if they do not add any fuel capacity, and the only change is in the warhead size, then it is no modification. Will that take the missile from 5,000 km to 5,5000 km? We do not know. Again, speculation and hypotheses. Call it whatever you want.

Edit: If you remove your pillion rider and fuel up your bike with more petrol for long distance does it mean you have modified the design?

 

[pmaitra]

India's missile bamboozle

India's missile bamboozle | The Asian Age

The first hint of Agni-V's ICBM status was dropped by the minister of state for science, Ashwini Kumar, when he referred to the missile re-entering the atmosphere at "24.4 times the speed of sound". Depending on the altitude, this works out to roughly 7.2 to 7.7 kms per second as terminal velocity, making it unquestionably an ICBM, compared to 6.2 to 6.5 kms per second re-entry speed of Agni-IV, which is IRBM performance. Obviously, Agni-V was fired in a high-parabolic trajectory to depress the distance it travelled, which may be why Chinese military sources have claimed that Agni-V's 8,000-km range is being covered up. The Agni has to have a minimum range of 10,000 kms to be considered an ICBM. But

That is the reason !!

High-parabolic distance, in other words the altitude, was 600 km. This is a re-entry vehicle well within the Low Earth Orbit range (160–2,000 km). So, if this missile reached an altitude of 200 km, it could typically cover a greater distance. The problem is, in that case, more of the locus of the parabola, or trajectory, will remain under the mesophere, and the missile will suffer wind resistance, and probably not attain such a high speed. So, this is a very simplistic explanation.

This portion is statistically incorrect. To be an ICBM, a missile does not have to have a minimum range of 10,000 kms. It has to have a minimum range of 5,500 km. However, any ICBM worth its salt should have that kind of range, i.e. a quarter of the Earth's Equatorial Circumference.

 

[pmaitra]

DRDO Chief didn't talk about modification, he just plainly described it as a missile with a maximum range of 5,800 km. he talked in the present tense, So it clearly means it isa missile with a maximum range of 5,800 km so i'll take it as an ICBM.

DRDO said two things: (1) the missile can be ramped up to become an ICBM, (2) DRDO did not cut the missile's range.

Please read the thread.

Yes, please take this missile, that covered a distance of 5,000 km as an ICBM, if that makes you feel good! :thumb:

 

[Bhadra]

DRDO said two things: (1) the missile can be ramped up to become an ICBM, (2) DRDO did not cut the missile's range.

Please read the thread.

Yes, please take this missile, that covered a distance of 5,000 km as an ICBM, if that makes you feel good! :thumb:

The larger aim of firing the missile was "Feel Good"..... Where is the doubt ??

 

[pmaitra]

The larger aim of firing the missile was "Feel Good"..... Where is the doubt ??

No doubt about that.

Edit: I take that back. The larger aim was to cover PRC, not to startle the world by sending out the message, 'we got ICBMs now, and we can target your cities!'

 

[A chauhan]

India's missile bamboozle

India's missile bamboozle | The Asian Age

The first hint of Agni-V's ICBM status was dropped by the minister of state for science, Ashwini Kumar, when he referred to the missile re-entering the atmosphere at "24.4 times the speed of sound". Depending on the altitude, this works out to roughly 7.2 to 7.7 kms per second as terminal velocity, making it unquestionably an ICBM, compared to 6.2 to 6.5 kms per second re-entry speed of Agni-IV, which is IRBM performance. Obviously, Agni-V was fired in a high-parabolic trajectory to depress the distance it travelled, which may be why Chinese military sources have claimed that Agni-V's 8,000-km range is being covered up. The Agni has to have a minimum range of 10,000 kms to be considered an ICBM. But

That is the reason !!

Although the re-entry speed should be considered for defining the class of the missile but it has already been denied as a criteria by some experts and here by some senior members. Missile doesn't need to have a range of 10,000 kms for ICBM category nor it needs a certain re-entry speed.

DRDO has the capability to take Agni 5 to 8,000 to 9,000 kms, it will now develop an SLBM with 6,000 km range which will be smaller than Agni 5 and it's a hint that Agni 5 already can go way farther from the declared maximum range, as the miniaturization of Agni 5 into an SLBM will be a tough job to do.

I'll say it again if you want to join SP5 then only you need an ICBM within the conventional definition of ICBM, otherwise if Agni 5 can hit Afica from Asia it's an ICBM, ICBM was defined by Europeans who wanted to hit US from Europe. We are not bound to follow that standard which was based on the width of Atlantic ocean between Europe and New York. If Brazil can hit Sierra Leone from Brazil from the distance of 2,848 km then it's an ICBM.

@pmaitra
I have already denied the hearsay evidence given by Ajay Shukla who heard it from "DRDO Sources" and given the link of DRDO chief himself so i wont go after the "ramped up" funda. I don't think removing pillion rider and fueling more petrol means a change in design.

 

[Adux]

That is a real stupid article from Bharat Karnad, and his talk in Heritage Foundation was even more idiotic.

 

[Adux]

The DRDO has never said it can be ramped to 8000 Kilometers, rather it has simply stated the missile's range is 5,800, which is above what is minimum required for an ICBM classification and the missile characteristically are that of an ICBM, Therefore my dear gents, the DRDO has just confirmed it is an ICBM.

 

[Yusuf]

I think Mr Karnad is wrong in saying that the missile was fired in a "high parabolic" trajectory. That would have meant that it should have gone higher than the 600km altitude.

I said earlier that it may well have been fired in a depressed trajectory.

What is also anybody's guess is the amount of propellant fueled. That too can be manipulated to manipulate the distance travelled.

We have had subsequent reports about the PM not being too keen to tick off the west with an ICBM. DRDO tested it to a "reasonable" distance.

 

[Adux]

I think Mr Karnad is wrong in saying that the missile was fired in a "high parabolic" trajectory. That would have meant that it should have gone higher than the 600km altitude.

I said earlier that it may well have been fired in a depressed trajectory.

What is also anybody's guess is the amount of propellant fueled. That too can be manipulated to manipulate the distance travelled.

We have had subsequent reports about the PM not being too keen to tick off the west with an ICBM. DRDO tested it to a "reasonable" distance.

Yusuf,

Re entry speeds and trajectory gives us an idea of what this missile is. Sarswant had already said the range is 5,800. It is an ICBM. Bharat Karnad has gone a little bonkers, evidence - Heritage Foundation Talk. 10,000 Km = ICBM, by which convention is that?

 

[sayareakd]

you guys should give credit to DRDO

they have tested missile at 5500+ km, which it border at IRBM and ICBM territory as shown in aforesaid pic from USA missile defence agency.
Chose what you like, but keep in mind that this is completely new missile and not just addition to A3 missile stage.

After some testes you might see it tested to its full range..........:cool2:

 

[Yusuf]

Yusuf,

Re entry speeds and trajectory gives us an idea of what this missile is. Sarswant had already said the range is 5,800. It is an ICBM. Bharat Karnad has gone a little bonkers, evidence - Heritage Foundation Talk. 10,000 Km = ICBM, by which convention is that?

Karnad in Heritage was "facepalm:

Saraswat is not telling the complete truth for obvious reasons. I am more than satisfied with A5 and the capability it gives us. Chinese are right in their assessment about the range of the missile and they'd better think twice before any decision to stroke first.

 

[Drsomnath999]

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY APRIL 25 AGNI 5 NEWS

 

[LurkerBaba]

Canisterized Agni V will be fired this year !

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which is savouring the successful test-firing of the Agni-V, is now preparing for another test launch of the missile. This test will not be from Wheeler Island where the Integrated Test Range ( ITR) is located.
....
When the missile takes off from the canister, the flames will be seen only about 30 metres from above the ground in the Agni-V that will be tested fired sometime towards the end of the year.
.....

Agni-V to be test-fired from a canister - The Times of India

 

[nitesh]

both articles, worth full read:

‘We have not understated the range of Agni V. We as a nation don’t have to hide anything with respect to our capabilities’ - Indian Express


The Public Affairs Magazine- Newsinsight.net

 

[nitesh]

New firepower

But the plan for the launch of the most formidable missile in India's arsenal with the longest range and the capability to carry a nuclear warhead weighing 1.1 tonnes, on April 18 was spoilt by broad sheets of lightning over the tiny island's skies. The DRDO, which designed, developed and built it, did not want to take any chances. It rescheduled the launch to April 19 between 7-30 a.m. and 8-30 a.m.

At 8-07 a.m., as the Agni-V shot out smoothly from its launch pad, roared into the sky and built up a powerful thrust, there was no doubt about the mission's success. The three stages ignited on time and their separation was clean and precise. The missile climbed to a height of about 600 km before starting to descend. The powered flight, with the three stages igniting and separating, lasted about 220 seconds. As each stage fired and decoupled, the MCC and the adjacent hall reverberated with applause. There was a long gap between the third stage separation and the re-entry vehicle knifing into the atmosphere at an altitude of 100 km. After the third stage separated and the re-entry vehicle was ejected at a velocity of about six km a second, the mood in the MCC was relaxed.

The DRDO's missile technologists were sure that "the re-entry vehicle will not go anywhere". Even if no data were available after the powered flight phase got over, "we would have known precisely where the re-entry vehicle had gone", they said. In fact, when the third stage ejected the re-entry vehicle at a velocity of 6 km a second, it became the fastest travelling object made by India, speeding at 25 Mach, or 25 times the speed of sound.

"The third stage separation was the determining point," Sekaran explained later. "After that, gravity takes over. Subsequently, nothing will happen. Nothing can happen also. It [the re-entry vehicle] is a free body travelling under gravity. It becomes what you call a ballistic flight."

After about 20 minutes of flight, when the dummy warhead carrying explosives erupted into a fireball and hit the waters of the Indian Ocean somewhere between Australia and Madagascar, another round of applause rang out in the MCC. The re-entry vehicle's impact point in the Indian Ocean was more than 5,000 km from Dhamra in the Bay of Bengal. The fireball was captured by cameras on three naval ships stationed downrange near the impact point. Agni-V was a spectacular success on its maiden flight itself.

In Saraswat's assessment, Agni-V "belongs to the 21st century not only in time frame but in technological complexity. It already compares with the missiles [of this long-range class] of the U.S., Russia, France and China." In fact, Saraswat repeatedly referred to Agni-V as a long-range missile.

Chander, who is also the Programme Director for Agni-V, said, "It is a major achievement we have made today. We reached more than 5,000 km."

While Agni-III missiles ejected the re-entry vehicle at a velocity of 4.2 km a second, Agni-V ejected it at a velocity of 6 km a second. "This is a new dispensation in terms of higher velocity. At the end of the day, you have to survive the re-entry and then only you can deliver. The particular heat shield we made for Agni-V is the strength of the ASL," the ASL Director said.

As the re-entry vehicle comes down through the atmosphere from an altitude of 100 km to a lower altitude, the atmosphere's density keeps increasing. Once the density increases, the re-entry vehicle's deceleration breaks and the heat generated keeps shooting up. It is akin to speeding in a car when brakes are suddenly applied and people seated in the car lurch forward. "In this case, the systems are qualified for 100 G. The survivability of the re-entry vehicle is a critical area," Sekaran said. (The re-entry phase lasts 40 seconds to 50 seconds.)

Another strength of the ASL lay in designing and developing motors propelled by solid fuel for Agni missions. For the Agni-V test flight also, the ASL designed and developed solid motors for its three stages. Besides, it developed the all-important light-weight composite for the second- and third-stage motors, which led to a reduction in their weight but far better performance. A crucial step towards developing Agni-V was taken when the ASL developed in 2007 a large rocket motor casing made entirely of carbon-filament wound composite. This casing, developed indigenously, formed the third upper stage of Agni-V. The casing went through full qualification trials in 2007.

With Agni-V scheduled to be inducted into the Army by 2015, there would be six flight tests, including three pre-induction trials.

 

[sayareakd]

I am thinking that just as shurya missile can be hidden under ground, same way, A5 can be hidden underground in farm house. All you need to do is dig 18+ meters for can. Launch. Since it can be launched from any place in India enemy would love it. Canister missile with 5-10 years shelf life would be great.

 

[pmaitra]

I am thinking that just as shurya missile can be hidden under ground, same way, A5 can be hidden underground in farm house. All you need to do is dig 18+ meters for can. Launch. Since it can be launched from any place in India enemy would love it. Canister missile with 5-10 years shelf life would be great.

I agree with you.

The only downside to this approach would be lack of mobility. That is the reason why I was advocating a TEL.