AEROINDIA 2019

[patriots]

Regarding Tejas mk2

1. Weapons load has been increased to 6.5 tons

2. Internal fuel load increased to 3.3 tons

3. Preliminary design phase will be wrappesd up by end of this year. After that detailed design phase. First flight by end 2023.

4. Rear fuselage has been widened to accommodate higher thrust engine. There are no plans to have uprated Kaveri. It is going to be GE F414.

5. Significant changes in the fuselage to accommodate higher fuel load. Wings have been moved outward.

6. 4 prototypes planned. Subsequent prototypes will fly six to eight months after. the first prototype.

7. Fuselage length has been increased by 1.35 m. Mto w is 17.5 tons

8. Will carry Brahmos mini.

9. IAF has a requirement for 200 MWF.

So we can say goodbye to Gripen E and F-21 which is a rebadged F-16 Block 70.

11 hardpoints.........................

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

A lot of it looks (at least in illustration) to be straight copies of existing weapons

- Smart Cruise Missile : Norwegian NSM / JSM
- New Gen PGM : EXACT Copy of Israeli Spice
- Anti-Tank Smart Bomb : Copy of US CBU-105
- New Gen LGB : Copy of GBU-49 (Although TBH almost all LBG do look similar worldwide)
- Anti-Ship Missile : Copy of Israeli Gabriel 5
- New Gen CCM / WVR Missile : Copy of ASRAAM

Hope they aren't seriously looking at the usual License Assembly route and re-branding it

Can anyone explain to me the need for / role of the LUH compared to the ALH?

I understand from previous reports that its for High Altitude Ops but isn't ALH already being used for this? I see them delivering supplies in Siachen already. So why LUH which is on paper less capable?

Why are we insisting on having these 2 separate choppers in an already crowded inventory when the ALH can easily become a universal battlefield utility helicopter (like the Blackhawk) which is the accepted global norm?

Is there some spectacular capability in LUH or deficiency in ALH I am missing?

It is lower cost in terms of fuel expense and maintenance. Where mere surveillance is needed without any major troop transport or assault capabilities, we use LUH. ALH is bigger and better in all aspects except cost. LUH is not a critical project but only good to have. There is no loss in potency if ALH is used in place of LUH.

Rear fuselage has been widened to accommodate higher thrust engine. There are no plans to have uprated Kaveri. It is going to be GE F414.

For first flight, it may be F414 but what about production model?

What is the status of Kaveri engine as of now? It was approved for limited envelope in 2018 itself. Is it flying in AeroIndia as promised?

 

[cyclops]

Mistral ATAM for LCH

 

[Rahul Singh]

Video of the mid air collision

To me, it looks like the one flying inverted started losing some altitude(actually it is few meters only) and the one flying level tried to avoid the collision by pulling hard on stick resulting in its rudder clipping nose of the one flying inverted...................With that level of margin for error, you are either perfect or dead.

Only wish there had not been any loss of life. My condolence to the family.

 

[Enquirer]

Chill out buzzkill! If they make good use of the expertise earned from LUH, Dhruv etc. & manage to produce something as reliable as Tejas, then it may replace the Mi-17s someday.

Compound rotor is still untested. We don't yet know whether it'll prove to be a fuel-guzzling white elephant or not...

Let me bet u (u name the amount)....this project will NEVER take off!
It's a stupid & outdated concept/design! Why replace Mi-17 with another exact replica? Is Tejas same as Mig-21?

Compound rotor is untested?? There are dozens of commercially available helos. All future ones will be that type.

 

[Rahul Singh]

demo simulator for HAL’s proposed Tejas-based supersonic trainer.

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Why HAL can't put same panoramic display and frameless HUD in MK-2 as well?

Info on naval ALH , no ASW version based on the same ?

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By not making all four blades foldable they just converted this in a wasteful effort.

 

[patriots]

Why HAL can't put same panoramic display and frameless HUD in MK-2 as well?

By not making all four blades foldable they just converted this in a wasteful effort.

Effort is going on to fold all blades...
And its just a prototype .....first prototype

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Let me bet u (u name the amount)....this project will NEVER take off!
It's a stupid & outdated concept/design! Why replace Mi-17 with another exact replica? Is Tejas same as Mig-21?

Compound rotor is untested?? There are dozens of commercially available helos. All future ones will be that type.

The whole point of IMRH is to have indigenous medium weight helicopters for transport and surveillance, especially in naval domain in ASW and radar based operations. The intention is just to get an indigenous platform which can be fully made in India enmasse and serves the purpose of carrying required weight of equipment. There is no need to get new design and add another set of uncertainty in development.

Unlike Tejas or fighter jets, IMRH is just for transport purpose & secondary role of assault. Tejas was needed to be used for high speed flights and maneuver but IMRH only needs to be a fat helicopter that can carry significant weight of equipment and no other performance is needed

Why HAL can't put same panoramic display and frameless HUD in MK-2 as well?

By not making all four blades foldable they just converted this in a wasteful effort.

The idea was to save space. So, folding 2 blades on the side was needed. Other blades were aligned with the body and hence did not consume much space while parking.

 

[Bleh]

Compound rotor is untested?? There are dozens of commercially available helos. All future ones will be that type.

Kamov/Sikorsky has experience. Not India.

Plus it's an interesting exception to the rule at best. It has not proven itself to be a clearly advantageous tech & despite the concept being around for years everybody didn't immediately jump ship. Several engines may make it's fuel consumption too high... for the speed it offers & all future concepts are still concepts.

IMO tilt rotors hold more promise with vertical lift & horizontal propelling. Maybe IAF will demand compound rotor or tilt rotor, if that's considered necessary.

 

[ezsasa]

No OFB stall in this year’s aeroindia?

Last time we have the first view of modified JVPC in aeroindia, if I am not wrong.

I was hoping for the new beltfed LMG(7.62 nato) to be announced this year.

 

[proud_indian]

hey guys any updates on kaveri engine front?

Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

 

[Enquirer]

Kamov/Sikorsky has experience. Not India.

Plus it's an interesting exception to the rule at best. It has not proven itself to be a clearly advantageous tech & despite the concept being around for years everybody didn't immediately jump ship. Several engines may make it's fuel consumption too high... for the speed it offers & all future concepts are still concepts.

IMO tilt rotors hold more promise with vertical lift & horizontal propelling. Maybe IAF will demand compound rotor or tilt rotor, if that's considered necessary.

I am not merely pushing for a compound/coaxial rotor. It has to be a compound rotor with pusher prop design!

Only reason compound/coaxial rotors (which eliminated tail rotors) didn't make a huge dent thus far is because the maneuverability was not a slick as it was with a tail rotor!

But with a pusher prop, the game changes completely. Helicopter, which had a natural speed limit (due to lift at one side of the rotor blades reducing drastically with increased forward speed that requires increased rpm). Since, pusher propellers provide all the forward speed, rotors need to spin (at reduced rpm) only to counter the downward weight! The reduced rpm on the rotor blades don't encounter the lift-loss (at high forward speed) that I described earlier.

Net-net. You have a helo moving at twice the speed of conventional helos.

Tilt rotors are significantly more complex to develop. Even US took several decades to master it. V-22 was in a bug-fix mode for decades!!!!

Pusher propeller is very easy to engineer. There's already a shaft that runs from engine to tail to transmit power. The pusher prop will need a slightly bigger shaft to transmit more power to a tail-rotor tilted 90 deg.

Compound rotor only needs replicate the existing rotor with a gear-mechanism that spins it in opposite direction. Fairly simple!
Turns are achieved both via tail fins (easy) or by varying individual rotors speeds (slightly complex).

 

[Bleh]

I am not merely pushing for a compound/coaxial rotor. It has to be a compound rotor with pusher prop design!

Only reason compound/coaxial rotors (which eliminated tail rotors) didn't make a huge dent thus far is because the maneuverability was not a slick as it was with a tail rotor!

Yes i understood you meant pusher-props as well. But if it were an attack helo... maybe then.
But i seriously doubts that they'd go such demands for a mere utility chopper who HCG may do since ASW at best.

Chances are they'll stress on reliability, maintainability, interchangeability, operational cost etc.

 

[Enquirer]

Yes i understood you meant pusher-props as well. But if it were an attack helo... maybe then.
But i seriously doubts that they'd go such demands for a mere utility chopper who HCG may do since ASW at best.

Chances are they'll stress on reliability, maintainability, interchangeability, operational cost etc.

Ultimately it'll come down to price!
Mi-17's can be produced so cheaply by Russia. After 10 years of R&D if HAL manages to make another Mi-17, it'll easily be 3-4 times the price of a Mi-17!

Imagine if Tejas were merely mimicing Mig-21!

HAL needs to 're-imagine' itself! This non-sense of looking at what's already been in the Indian arsenal for last 40-50 years and then replicating that same shit needs to stop!

Akash missile suffered big time because of that! Even though it finally worked, it's effectiveness was that of a 60 year old missile that was dying a natural death in Indian military. Despite all the hoopla, Akash orders are very limited. Israeli MRSAM/LRSAM has nudged out Akash in IA/IAF/IN!!!!

Pusher prop/Compound rotors are not that terribly difficult - no big breakthroughs required. It just needs some engineering work!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Ultimately it'll come down to price!
Mi-17's can be produced so cheaply by Russia. After 10 years of R&D if HAL manages to make another Mi-17, it'll easily be 3-4 times the price of a Mi-17!

The price of indigenisation can't be compared with imports. One always has to forego development costs as dead expense. After ignoring development cost, the price of indigenous item will be mich lower than imports. We are always looking for mass manufacturing cost, not cost of limited quantity

Akash missile suffered big time because of that! Even though it finally worked, it's effectiveness was that of a 60 year old missile that was dying a natural death in Indian military.

Akash missile suffered not due to missile itself but due to lack of radars and other sophisticated items. Moreover, having to kill enemy vehicle at supersonic speed is difficult

Imagine if Tejas were merely mimicing Mig-21

MiG21 is a fighter plane. IMRH is mostly a transport/logistics chopper. Better comparison will be to compare C130 of 1959s with C130J of 2000s. Do yoi complain that the C130J has same design as C130 of 1950s?

 

[Enquirer]

I have to trust that you'll come up with some inane questions

The price of indigenisation can't be compared with imports. One always has to forego development costs as dead expense. After ignoring development cost, the price of indigenous item will be mich lower than imports. We are always looking for mass manufacturing cost, not cost of limited quantity

But why would one plunk a huge amount of money into a product that would be a vintage on arrival? Not having cutting edge technology can be an excuse; but lacking imagination (to leverage the technology that's already available) is stupidity!

Akash missile suffered not due to missile itself but due to lack of radars and other sophisticated items. Moreover, having to kill enemy vehicle at supersonic speed is difficult

Have you ever compared the specs of Akash Mk1 with SA-6/Pechora??
That said, radars are part of the system. When someone says missile, the entire system is being referred to.
Also, no one's talking about delays and issues encountered on the way. But, when it did work as intended how would you benchmark the product? A 50 year old vintage?

MiG21 is a fighter plane. IMRH is mostly a transport/logistics chopper. Better comparison will be to compare C130 of 1959s with C130J of 2000s. Do yoi complain that the C130J has same design as C130 of 1950s?

Only you're capable of making irrelevant comparisons to make an absurd point!

C130J is an improvement over the company's OWN EXISTING product - makes perfect economic sense to do so!
But it would be stupid for a brand new company to plunk billions into R&D and come up with the 50s version of C130!!!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

But why would one plunk a huge amount of money into a product that would be a vintage on arrival? Not having cutting edge technology can be an excuse; but lacking imagination (to leverage the technology that's already available) is stupidity

Indian intent is not to export but to simply get self reliance. Wars require manufacturing of lakhs of aircraft, not hundreds. Such quantity is possible only if there is self reliance. Imports are not a feasible option for wartime needs. This is the only reason for development of IMRH. There is no need for imagination or any new design but simple import substitution.

 

[Chinmoy]

Spot the dual barrelled gun

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Literal show of Belly of the Beast........

 

[Enquirer]

Indian intent is not to export but to simply get self reliance. Wars require manufacturing of lakhs of aircraft, not hundreds. Such quantity is possible only if there is self reliance. Imports are not a feasible option for wartime needs. This is the only reason for development of IMRH. There is no need for imagination or any new design but simple import substitution.

One has to thank the stars that you're not in any position of responsibility. Those that need to do the job and have responsibility will have to think in multiple dimensions at the same time.
Having a one-track mind will eventually lead u to fall off a cliff!
My bad for engaging with you!

 

[porky_kicker]

Manik mini turbofan engine for UAVs and Nirbhay

The same fucking RP model since the last 10 years