ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[R.parida]

After going through the article .. rift between IAF,HAL and ADA over MK1+ .. very susceptible if HAL really has man power to support the LCA MK 2 project to go in time? or we have to wait couple of more years/ more delays/ more allegation over the project.

Something really needs to be planned well for the MK2 project we just cant wait and wait.

To produce the MK-II within suitable timelines, a very different procedural and production approach have to be adopted than what has been done for the MK-I. Just cant see China adding one after antoher fighter planes and helping Pak with their obsolete models.

Its time for all parties to work cohesively to have a world class product within time..

Am doubtful like others because we did it number of times and repetation is a habit and very diffcult to get away..

In simillar line Saurav Jha : Any objective observer looking at the LCA program will come to the conclusion that this country lacks the will to indigenize.

 

[no smoking]

Why would GE be held away from doing a big deal with India for TOT and engines and also having a large R&D setup in India that would help and benefit GE in the long term.

Why should they? India is still decades away from maturing a engine of last 80s technology INDEPENDTLY. They can still selling engines which is lots more profitable than license building.

Forget about Kaveri, Chinese alone had at least 6 or 7 engine designs reached the same stage. But they are all called failures.

Having large R&D setup in India? You kidding me? Each of those R&D infrastructures costs billions dollars ALONE. How can you hope they to build it for you?

 

[no smoking]

If HAL was able to reduce weight of Tejas, what they were doing from last 14 years??

Waiting for other departments' breakthrough: new materials, smaller electronic equipment, better process tools, etc.

 

[Compersion]

Why should they? India is still decades away from maturing a engine of last 80s technology INDEPENDTLY. They can still selling engines which is lots more profitable than license building.

Forget about Kaveri, Chinese alone had at least 6 or 7 engine designs reached the same stage. But they are all called failures.

Having large R&D setup in India? You kidding me? Each of those R&D infrastructures costs billions dollars ALONE. How can you hope they to build it for you?

I agree i would prefer to have more discussion and focus on our indigenous engine capability. I am sure it will be more concentrated in next days and also we probably do not know what is really going on. But not about sure your eagerness to devalue the India skill and capability. Also I am sure you have made a internal calculation of the air force engines that are actually in India and PRC. Can i say that India has capability and skills but it takes time ? Can i say PRC used its time but no capability and skills ? With GE what we are saying is not "stealing" and "taking advantage" and even being "cunning".

It is not having GE build it. It is GE wanting to build it and work in partnership for a win-win relationship. You do realize that if a R&D setup is done in India and costs billions dollars it is a good thing but it is not one way investment ... are there any being setup and with capability and skill

Another one to add to the earlier list: Qian Xuesen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

USA - > PRC technology. Too easy ??

India with USA does not want to have "Qian Xuesen" type relationship (reverse brain drain). But how do i say otherwise ... leave it to your imagination. A Qian Xuesen that never left PRC ? A Qian Xuesen that never left India ? = GE wanting to come to India.

Air Craft Engine built in India. It will be done with and without GE that is for sure. If it is "also" with GE there is a reason and it will have strategic and partnership reasons.

 

[3The Crossbow]

Tejas Mk2

should be able to carry & fire

1. Astra Mk2
2. Brahmos NG
3. Air Launched Nirbhay
4. Fighter launched version of Helina ( higher range IRST target hand off LOBL / LOAL)
5. Different warhead / use version of Helina (not only tank busters)

Ok answer to your curiosity..

astra; Yes it will by the time it will be inducted 2024 Astra will be a mature platform .

Brahmos NG no we do not even need it carry brahmos either when sukhoi are already dedicated to it.

Nirbhay : yes as a matter of fact all IAF jets will be able to carry Nirbhay air launch version.

Helina is not what we should be looking for but by the time we will be seeing UAV doing the roles of carrying helina and to make matter worse for enemy work is already in progress with rusta able to carry two two helina missiles.

I am hopeful low cost UAV will be developed and given to army's air division to carry strike against tanks and armoured division of enemy using helis and UAV's.

In between we need to find a low cost variant of brahmos with a higher range 700 km - 1000 km. But russia being bounded it will be interesting to see when we are able to manage to get it from them through other means or perhaps try to develop on our own.

At this point of time DRDO should concentrate on astra BRAHMOS AND NIRBHAY AS THESE THREE WILL BE GAME CHANGER FOR US.

BUT right now it is meteor and mica derby python that we have in stock which are tremendous bvr missile which Tejas will be able to fire along with its russian counterparts

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Ok answer to your curiosity..

astra; Yes it will by the time it will be inducted 2024 Astra will be a mature platform .

Brahmos NG no we do not even need it carry brahmos either when sukhoi are already dedicated to it.

Nirbhay : yes as a matter of fact all IAF jets will be able to carry Nirbhay air launch version.

Helina is not what we should be looking for but by the time we will be seeing UAV doing the roles of carrying helina and to make matter worse for enemy work is already in progress with rusta able to carry two two helina missiles.

I am hopeful low cost UAV will be developed and given to army's air division to carry strike against tanks and armoured division of enemy using helis and UAV's.

In between we need to find a low cost variant of brahmos with a higher range 700 km - 1000 km. But russia being bounded it will be interesting to see when we are able to manage to get it from them through other means or perhaps try to develop on our own.

At this point of time DRDO should concentrate on astra BRAHMOS AND NIRBHAY AS THESE THREE WILL BE GAME CHANGER FOR US.

BUT right now it is meteor and mica derby python that we have in stock which are tremendous bvr missile which Tejas will be able to fire along with its russian counterparts

nobody has meteor in its stock specially not us and not even france

 

[3The Crossbow]

I agree i would prefer to have more discussion and focus on our indigenous engine capability. I am sure it will be more concentrated in next days and also we probably do not know what is really going on. But not about sure your eagerness to devalue the India skill and capability. Also I am sure you have made a internal calculation of the air force engines that are actually in India and PRC. Can i say that India has capability and skills but it takes time ? Can i say PRC used its time but no capability and skills ? With GE what we are saying is not "stealing" and "taking advantage" and even being "cunning".

It is not having GE build it. It is GE wanting to build it and work in partnership for a win-win relationship. You do realize that if a R&D setup is done in India and costs billions dollars it is a good thing but it is not one way investment ... are there any being setup and with capability and skill

Another one to add to the earlier list: Qian Xuesen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

USA - > PRC technology. Too easy ??

India with USA does not want to have "Qian Xuesen" type relationship (reverse brain drain). But how do i say otherwise ... leave it to your imagination. A Qian Xuesen that never left PRC ? A Qian Xuesen that never left India ? = GE wanting to come to India.

Air Craft Engine built in India. It will be done with and without GE that is for sure. If it is "also" with GE there is a reason and it will have strategic and partnership reasons.

with or without GE yes it will be but then there is cost of time also. Easy time saving option is throw millions dollar to them and get what you want may be a billion depend what we get.

the problem is we do not have base or skillset right now to build. we do not have enough iits to utiliza the talent we got. and that will take decades to happen but defence cannot wait for that long. so easier option is to work with some established firm. i believe we should have taken help of russian from the beginning instead of starting the project alone. they were willing to do anything that time because of their economy we could have hired scientist from russia itself under gtre and make the process faster and result better.

kaveri engine is not only providing low thrust but it is not able to function properly too. why do you think that the whole project was completely shelved/

now there might be some derivatives for smaller thrust engines but those projects will also be tough.

one shall understand the ineffectiveness of our psu that tejas mk2 was proposed in 2008 and then go sanctioned in 2008 but still the production line will start in 2022-2024 almost 15 - 16 years later on. rafale was completed in similar time frame despite being a completely new beast. we do not want to acknowledge this but this is truth.

an engine without foreign help will come in 2040 - 2050 if we want it by 2025 we shall take help of russian or american. i do not think french or eurojet is strategically beneficial.

We already made a mistake by using american engine for prototype and not taking russian help in the beginning resulting in the sanctions effecting us.

our political leadership shall do some serious brainstorming with some superficial drdo scientist and bureaucrats to stop making this foolishness which cost nation bilions of dollars. if tejas would have been inducted by 2009 - 2010 there are chance that we might be have our amca sooner and no rafale deal saving cost and money both at the same time providing needed firepower to iaf. drdo delays and lying has cost many lives of iaf pilots who were delaying the process of buying mirage in the hope that tejas will be able to replace them but 1999 war where mirage effectiveness and mig 23 and mig 27 inability and too much delay made iaf nervous by 2003 resulting in buying more mirage and issue a tender for 126 + jets. till 2020 IAF will have to operate within their boundation with only 300 or so effective jets

bottom line being optimistic is good but not too optimistic we need ge and they want money and ofcourse usa wants presence in india as they know if they do not do that russia will so ir is russia which gives us bargaining stick with west not our capability to build on own.

 

[3The Crossbow]

nobody has meteor in its stock specially not us and not even france

lol sorry my mistake but by the time tejas mk 2 comes, we will have that and its integration with tejas is required to improve bvr performance of tejas.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

lol sorry my mistake but by the time tejas mk 2 comes, we will have that and its integration with tejas is required to improve bvr performance of tejas.

russians have better BVR missiles with first in the world kind of seeker tech on missiles

 

[no smoking]

But not about sure your eagerness to devalue the India skill and capability. Also I am sure you have made a internal calculation of the air force engines that are actually in India and PRC. Can i say that India has capability and skills but it takes time ? Can i say PRC used its time but no capability and skills ? With GE what we are saying is not "stealing" and "taking advantage" and even being "cunning".

Not sure where you get the idea that India has the capability and skills to develop an engine independently now? What kind of engine had India tried to produce/design/copy without foreign participation before Kaveri?
For China, WP5, WP6,WP7, WP9, WP13, WP14, WS9, WS10.
"Stealing"? A typical loser excuse by Indian scientists who failed to "steal" it. The only reason they can sell you the engine is that they know you can't steal it.

It is not having GE build it. It is GE wanting to build it and work in partnership for a win-win relationship. You do realize that if a R&D setup is done in India and costs billions dollars it is a good thing but it is not one way investment ... are there any being setup and with capability and skill

Russian has set up the full scale AF31 engine factory in India for quite long time, your kaveri stll failed.

Another one to add to the earlier list: Qian Xuesen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

USA - > PRC technology. Too easy ??

India with USA does not want to have "Qian Xuesen" type relationship (reverse brain drain). But how do i say otherwise ... leave it to your imagination. A Qian Xuesen that never left PRC ? A Qian Xuesen that never left India ? = GE wanting to come to India.

India started from far ahead position in modern technology when Chinese started their industrialization. When Qian came back, the total number of Chinese engineers was only 1/10 of India's.

Air Craft Engine built in India. It will be done with and without GE that is for sure. If it is "also" with GE there is a reason and it will have strategic and partnership reasons.

Good luck! After 50 years work with GE, Japanese found themselves still unable to develop a decent jet engine today.

 

[SajeevJino]

nobody has meteor in its stock specially not us and not even france

Sorry are you Talking about Meteor BVR AAM

Here it is

Spain - 100 - 2009
Sweden - N/A - 2010
Qatar - 160 - 2015
Egypt - N/A - 2015
Saudi - N/A - 2015 ( Deal value 650 million Euro )

 

[3The Crossbow]

russians have better BVR missiles with first in the world kind of seeker tech on missiles

lol

then why were you more considerate about other missiles when we all know tejas has already successfully fired Russian missiles.

Here is the reality check what you read in news or russian defence forum and what is reality are complete different aspect. russian missiles are good with long range and cheap cost which makes it easier to deploy more in numbers but to think they are better than the likes of meteor mica and usa missiles you must be very dreamy.

and what is first of its kind seeker tech? can you tell me upto what degree seeker can see the targets?

Let me know how much maneuverable russian missiles are? how much g's they can pull off?

Just check why India wanted france to help in maitri missile defence system while russia was never able to solve it for us.

Read about iris t and meteor and you will know why they are much better and the future.

 

[3The Crossbow]

Not sure where you get the idea that India has the capability and skills to develop an engine independently now? What kind of engine had India tried to produce/design/copy without foreign participation before Kaveri?
For China, WP5, WP6,WP7, WP9, WP13, WP14, WS9, WS10.
"Stealing"? A typical loser excuse by Indian scientists who failed to "steal" it. The only reason they can sell you the engine is that they know you can't steal it.



Russian has set up the full scale AF31 engine factory in India for quite long time, your kaveri stll failed.



India started from far ahead position in modern technology when Chinese started their industrialization. When Qian came back, the total number of Chinese engineers was only 1/10 of India's.



Good luck! After 50 years work with GE, Japanese found themselves still unable to develop a decent jet engine today.

Hi there...

Before i try to defend anything i will like to say thank you for showing us the mirror but then i am not going to say what Australia did in these last decades apart from being an american pet.

You shall understand it was not Chinese scientist which helped them to build the engines but the russian scientist who helped china to get that.

china was an independent nation much before India and reform in economic policy also begin much earlier and those two decades costed us a lot.

Second thing is India did reverse engineered a turbojet engine before and used it.

India is the first nation to use rockets in war that says about our technological capacity.

and yes we did reach to mars too.

Assembling engine doesn't give you crucial tech to make a engine it a very sophisticated technology.

The time and cost India spent on kaveri is very less compare to what west or china has done. still we are able to have an engine from which other derivatives will be derived to power our trainer jet and UAV's.

soon we will be having our own engine even if it means we may have to pay a hefty amount for that as i believe there are many ways to achieve things china did by reverse engineering India will do the same by paying.

i will not blame drdo or scientist for the failure but their overestimation of their capability they did made the engine but unfortunately its thrust is not enough to power out our jet.

in the process they learnt a lot and we can build on that. Indian scientist did reverse engineered lot of stuff from rifles to missiles and they do have the capability too and we do not blame china for what they did we just say their copies are not good enough. We only need political leadership which is ready to spend on Indian companies instead of paying foreign dalals.

 

[Compersion]

with or without GE yes it will be but then there is cost of time also. Easy time saving option is throw millions dollar to them and get what you want may be a billion depend what we get.

the problem is we do not have base or skillset right now to build. we do not have enough iits to utiliza the talent we got. and that will take decades to happen but defence cannot wait for that long. so easier option is to work with some established firm. i believe we should have taken help of russian from the beginning instead of starting the project alone. they were willing to do anything that time because of their economy we could have hired scientist from russia itself under gtre and make the process faster and result better.

kaveri engine is not only providing low thrust but it is not able to function properly too. why do you think that the whole project was completely shelved/

now there might be some derivatives for smaller thrust engines but those projects will also be tough.

one shall understand the ineffectiveness of our psu that tejas mk2 was proposed in 2008 and then go sanctioned in 2008 but still the production line will start in 2022-2024 almost 15 - 16 years later on. rafale was completed in similar time frame despite being a completely new beast. we do not want to acknowledge this but this is truth.

an engine without foreign help will come in 2040 - 2050 if we want it by 2025 we shall take help of russian or american. i do not think french or eurojet is strategically beneficial.

We already made a mistake by using american engine for prototype and not taking russian help in the beginning resulting in the sanctions effecting us.

our political leadership shall do some serious brainstorming with some superficial drdo scientist and bureaucrats to stop making this foolishness which cost nation bilions of dollars. if tejas would have been inducted by 2009 - 2010 there are chance that we might be have our amca sooner and no rafale deal saving cost and money both at the same time providing needed firepower to iaf. drdo delays and lying has cost many lives of iaf pilots who were delaying the process of buying mirage in the hope that tejas will be able to replace them but 1999 war where mirage effectiveness and mig 23 and mig 27 inability and too much delay made iaf nervous by 2003 resulting in buying more mirage and issue a tender for 126 + jets. till 2020 IAF will have to operate within their boundation with only 300 or so effective jets

bottom line being optimistic is good but not too optimistic we need ge and they want money and ofcourse usa wants presence in india as they know if they do not do that russia will so ir is russia which gives us bargaining stick with west not our capability to build on own.

Do agree there is a lot we need to do. But there is a lot of good stuff that can happen and is happening.

 

[Compersion]

Not sure where you get the idea that India has the capability and skills to develop an engine independently now? What kind of engine had India tried to produce/design/copy without foreign participation before Kaveri?
For China, WP5, WP6,WP7, WP9, WP13, WP14, WS9, WS10.
"Stealing"? A typical loser excuse by Indian scientists who failed to "steal" it. The only reason they can sell you the engine is that they know you can't steal it.

Russian has set up the full scale AF31 engine factory in India for quite long time, your kaveri stll failed.

India started from far ahead position in modern technology when Chinese started their industrialization. When Qian came back, the total number of Chinese engineers was only 1/10 of India's.

Good luck! After 50 years work with GE, Japanese found themselves still unable to develop a decent jet engine today.

Wishing you having a good weekend and good to hear from you.

Some more for the list USA -> PRC Technology (Too Easy):

Google -> Baidu
Ebay -> Alibaba
Uber -> Didi
Twitter -> Weibo
Apple -> Xiaomi
Whatsapp -> Wechat


(all with PRC state control ultimate management and employment and market cap). I have on purpose not included military. And also Russia -> PRC technology (Easy)

frustration
frʌˈstreɪʃn/
noun

1. the feeling of being upset or annoyed as a result of being unable to change or achieve something.
   "tears of frustration rolled down her cheeks"
   
   
2. the prevention of the progress, success, or fulfilment of something.
   "the frustration of their wishes"

The above is not only USA it is Israel it is more ... it is eco system that took many years and time to develop. And photocopy and imitated quickly and easily into PRC. And what is done thereafter in PRC is by way of open prohibition. But sure one can argue is it wrong. Not really. But that is not the point here.

Would i like that India has its own Baidu, Alibaba, Didi, Weibo, Xiaomi. Sure but with fair and open business practices and competition. And many times India can do better and match but it has to be done fairly through competition and innovation. It works both ways outsiders come to India. India can go to outside. The latter needs to be emphasized big time because it has to be our companies and not only people that need to go outside more and more.

It is not only about stealing. It is doing it fairly and properly. the opportunity to earn minimalist amounts in market capital ... is not the same to adhering by principles and even rule of laws.

The frustration is making these strategic and partnerships come into India with bigger and massive force and win-win solutions which were already there previously but are being magnified. On principle and fairness sure but on doing it right. This scope goes further to what is happening one can say in the PRC stock market and the explosion near Beijing (Tianjing). Outside investors and partners ... is not about making cheaply and with labor control.

The Indigenous architecture is not only about putting money and will. It is the capability. We India will have to put in our indigenous infrastructure not only for us but for the region and global reasons. The Indian and make in India infrastructure will be good. Will it have outside collaboration also sure. Will India make its own engine yes. Will GE come to prevent Indigenous capability developing ... will it come and help and support indigenous capability (It is about the latter).

The engine tech of WP5, WP6,WP7, WP9, WP13, WP14, WS9, WS10 is it better to what is in India ?

You mention AF31 factory. Is that all we have got ? Does PRC have a AF31 factory and better ...

But sure PRC can make in numbers.

And you talk about Kaveri (and its derivatives) being a failure. Is that today ... it that tomorrow. Is Kaveri better to what PRC made (and its equivalents) even when it was made to look like a failure.

But i am not wanting to making this a PRC vs India debate. I am here to say if there is opposition and doubt in companies like GE to enter into India it is misplaced when it is fair and reasonable for all parties. The distance between US and India is far but to see how easy PRC has had with USA ... And many say USA and India relationship is a partnership advantage because we are not adversarial by default. We add into the mix the language, technical skills, rule of laws, etc etc. Can we say reprisal ...

The only thing that needs to seen why GE and others might be not eager to come is because like you said India wants to build its indigenous capability. Air Craft Engine will be built in India. It will be done with and without GE that is for sure. If it is "also" with GE there is a reason and it will have strategic and partnership reasons. It would be good that GE and others understand that being in India is not about envy and even schadenfreude but much more opposite and more important that will be good for the region and world.

Chairman Mao once said to the Americans (during the Nixons talks) something like:

Open your secrets to PRC and dont worry they wont be stolen. America can trust PRC. America can test PRC. Layout your secrets and see.

India does not need a Chairman Mao to make the Americans intellectuals comprehend.

India and USA relationship is not about "taking advantage" and "stealing" and "being cunning".

Also there is a story being said that anyone and everyone who deals with American suffers. India and America is a partnership that will have to be default two-way and win-win and not one way where there is prohibition and frustration. It has been placed that way no matter what anyone wants to says otherwise. One can say we are late to the (indigenous) party but we will do it right and not in a abbreviated manner.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Sorry are you Talking about Meteor BVR AAM

Here it is

Spain - 100 - 2009
Sweden - N/A - 2010
Qatar - 160 - 2015
Egypt - N/A - 2015
Saudi - N/A - 2015 ( Deal value 650 million Euro )

i dont see "especially" france & India on that list

read the whole referenced discussion

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

lol

then why were you more considerate about other missiles when we all know tejas has already successfully fired Russian missiles.

Here is the reality check what you read in news or russian defence forum and what is reality are complete different aspect. russian missiles are good with long range and cheap cost which makes it easier to deploy more in numbers but to think they are better than the likes of meteor mica and usa missiles you must be very dreamy.

and what is first of its kind seeker tech? can you tell me upto what degree seeker can see the targets?

Let me know how much maneuverable russian missiles are? how much g's they can pull off?

Just check why India wanted france to help in maitri missile defence system while russia was never able to solve it for us.

Read about iris t and meteor and you will know why they are much better and the future.

when we are talking about a2a missiles

why do we bring in maitri ? is it an a2a missile ?
is he contract for maitri signed ? or is still being negotiated like Rafale deal / MMRCA ?
you willget all your replies dont worry in a day or two

 

[3The Crossbow]

when we are talking about a2a missiles

why do we bring in maitri ? is it an a2a missile ?
is he contract for maitri signed ? or is still being negotiated like Rafale deal / MMRCA ?
you willget all your replies dont worry in a day or two

first read what i said and then justify your claim on which basis you said russian missiles are btter than iris t and meteor.

any dumb will tell you the seeker and guidance technology used in mica will makes it's way in maitri and it is already under development it is based on trishul of india and mica of france.

i smell ignorance and attitude nothing else from your replies

 

[no smoking]

Hi there...

Before i try to defend anything i will like to say thank you for showing us the mirror but then i am not going to say what Australia did in these last decades apart from being an american pet.

Australia is a small country, they never expected to be a great power. But India is not Australia, she wants to be a big boy and she wants others to see her that way. So, you better get used to that people will judge you that way.

You shall understand it was not Chinese scientist which helped them to build the engines but the russian scientist who helped china to get that.

Oh, how can Russian scientists design an American style engine with Chinese industrial base. It took Chinese 20 years to adjust its related industries for British-American kind of engine production and 30 years to figure out American design concept. Now you suggests that some Russians can just make a system they have zero idea to produce an engine they have also zero knowledge in 5 years?

china was an independent nation much before India and reform in economic policy also begin much earlier and those two decades costed us a lot.

This "independent" nation had been going through 38 years wars until 1949 and was unable to produce even bullet at meaningful number while the weapon produced by India was critical part of supply to this "independent" country in 8 years war.

Second thing is India did reverse engineered a turbojet engine before and used it.

Which one?

India is the first nation to use rockets in war that says about our technological capacity.

Yes, in 1780s.

and yes we did reach to mars too.

Yes, a flag-waving activity with no scientific meaning.

Assembling engine doesn't give you crucial tech to make a engine it a very sophisticated technology.

Well, it does if you have to create your own production machine with your own material when the foreign supplier refused to supply any technology detail.

The time and cost India spent on kaveri is very less compare to what west or china has done. still we are able to have an engine from which other derivatives will be derived to power our trainer jet and UAV's.

Until today we haven't see a picture showing any plane is powered by Kaveri alone. So, it is too early to tell.

soon we will be having our own engine even if it means we may have to pay a hefty amount for that as i believe there are many ways to achieve things china did by reverse engineering India will do the same by paying.

Of course, I have no doubt about that. But the question is "how soon"?

i will not blame drdo or scientist for the failure but their overestimation of their capability they did made the engine but unfortunately its thrust is not enough to power out our jet.

Of course, they shouldn't be blamed. It is the fault of India government and India public. They have never provide enough fund, support and time to these scientists. You guys never realised how hard it is to build up an engine from scratch even today.

in the process they learnt a lot and we can build on that. Indian scientist did reverse engineered lot of stuff from rifles to missiles and they do have the capability too and we do not blame china for what they did we just say their copies are not good enough. We only need political leadership which is ready to spend on Indian companies instead of paying foreign dalals.

I have no doubt about Indian scientists. Instead, I have doubt about Indian public who already takes every tech advancement as a piece of cake. And it seems you are still changing: my friend, based on the different performance of 2 countries, there are lot more required than just political leadership.

 

[3The Crossbow]

Australia is a small country, they never expected to be a great power. But India is not Australia, she wants to be a big boy and she wants others to see her that way. So, you better get used to that people will judge you that way.

Every country wish to be a superpower if they don't it means they do not have the resources for now. we just want to be dominant in Indian subcontinent and get what was ours Once upon a time..

Oh, how can Russian scientists design an American style engine with Chinese industrial base. It took Chinese 20 years to adjust its related industries for British-American kind of engine production and 30 years to figure out American design concept. Now you suggests that some Russians can just make a system they have zero idea to produce an engine they have also zero knowledge in 5 years?

Please if you have read histoy then you will know how after ussr falls china started making discovery. Russia helped china a lot initially to and so did other nation initially to make it stand where it is now. they reverse engineered russian engines too and those things do help to eventually reverse engineer american one. they have lots of scientist from russia who helped them and still working for them.

This "independent" nation had been going through 38 years wars until 1949 and was unable to produce even bullet at meaningful number while the weapon produced by India was critical part of supply to this "independent" country in 8 years war.

Being in war is better than being a slave. I believe our so called democracy which was actually revolving around one person and one family did the damage to us. our war with pakistan and china are self ignited by our leaders we could have done much better than this. Also you do not understand how hard it is to grow when a huge part of your own nation favors the other nation in the name of religion.

Which one?

I am sorry i cannot quote the name right now if you can google i did read that years back so i remember.

Yes, a flag-waving activity with no scientific meaning.

It is no flag waiving and it does have lots of scientific and nationalistic meaning. you should have seen the reaction of world every scientist dreams to explore and explore more and this was one step to give hope to Indians bringing positivity which is what human life is about.

Well, it does if you have to create your own production machine with your own material when the foreign supplier refused to supply any technology detail.

We did learn how to produce but not how to make. It is definitely good for us but at the same time i believe it doesn't mean we can make engine because we produce one

Until today we haven't see a picture showing any plane is powered by Kaveri alone. So, it is too early to tell.

Agreed just quoted what DRDO said i have faith in them despite what people say about them and i have met a few .those people are mad about what they do i wish they get it provided criticism from media stop and funds are released on time.

Of course, I have no doubt about that. But the question is "how soon"?

I have lot more doubts about when?

It's not going to be soon our politics and foreign policy is screwed right now. I do not know why but last gov tried to make distance from russia which is our only trusted friend when the time was good for them they helped us we should have done the same to be on their side. perhaps dollar is more charming than rubles.

Of course, they shouldn't be blamed. It is the fault of India government and India public. They have never provide enough fund, support and time to these scientists. You guys never realised how hard it is to build up an engine from scratch even today.

after 1993 all defence projects have been given enough money to do what they want.

I have no doubt about Indian scientists. Instead, I have doubt about Indian public who already takes every tech advancement as a piece of cake. And it seems you are still changing: my friend, based on the different performance of 2 countries, there are lot more required than just political leadership.

Agree with you. Change is the law of nature specially when you are not in good shape you should change fast to become better.

One question are you Australian or chinese?