ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Going for the american fighters being offered is a bad idea. They are aircraft nearing the end of thier upgradability. Rafale still seems like it has upgradability in it left.

F16s are already outdated UASAF is not buying it anymore

 

[IndianHawk]

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files/drdo-news-documents/DRDO_News_24_Nov_2019.pdf

View attachment 131337

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A casual reading of the above establishes these facts (hard to dispute given where they are coming from): Meteor can engage enemy fighter planes at 200-250kms. At the time the missile is fired, it relies on the aircraft's radar to track the adversary and make corrections via 2-way data links. Only when metoer is few 10's of kms away from enemy fighter it activates it's on board seeker and homes on to target.

To the gurus here:
Does this mean EL/M 2052 AESA (not integrated because of purely commercial reasons) or Uttam Mk1 (meteor integration possible) armed Tejas Mk1A can see enemy planes that far? 200-250kms??

Let's see . Uttam on lca mk1a with almost 780 trm is supposed to track 1m2 target at more than 135 km .

Now any older jet with missiles will have rcs much greater than 1m2 . Chinese j11-16etc have rcs of 5m2. Paki f16 probably 3m2 and jf17 probably 2m2 and j10 might be 2-3 m2.

So all these may be tracked by mk1a at distancece greater than 180-200 km.

So meteor technically can engage them yet the NEZ of meteor is 100km+ . Exact figures are unknown could be 150 km could be 140 or even 170. But it will only be effective against fighter jets within that NEZ. Outside of it missile would loose required energy to hunt down a manuevering fighter jet.

The aircrafts that are bigger and can't maneuver like awacs , tankers ew jets can be taken down at maximum range by meteor.

 

[ash2win]

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files/drdo-news-documents/DRDO_News_24_Nov_2019.pdf

View attachment 131337

View attachment 131336

A casual reading of the above establishes these facts (hard to dispute given where they are coming from): Meteor can engage enemy fighter planes at 200-250kms. At the time the missile is fired, it relies on the aircraft's radar to track the adversary and make corrections via 2-way data links. Only when metoer is few 10's of kms away from enemy fighter it activates it's on board seeker and homes on to target.

To the gurus here:
Does this mean EL/M 2052 AESA (not integrated because of purely commercial reasons) or Uttam Mk1 (meteor integration possible) armed Tejas Mk1A can see enemy planes that far? 200-250kms??

DRDO is copy pasting desi article without fact checking.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

What is the range of Rafale AESA radar,
And UTTAM Mk2 aesa radar.
With more TRMs uttam Mk2 must have more range than Rafale aesa radar.

TRM play important role with accuracy and resolution. They have a impact on lesser scale on range.
Range of the radar mainly depends on transmit power, receiver sensitivity, TRM cooling capability, receiver ability of filter noise and ECCM.
The RBE2 AA is reported to deliver a greater detection range of 200 km.
As for Uttam Mk. 2 its still a long way to go. Uttam Mk. 1 is still under development/testing while RBE2 AA is in production from 2012.

People nowadays in DFI have a simplistic approach saying higher number of TRM means better radar and longer tracking range. This is not true. Real life things are very complicated and intertwined.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

What's range of meteor as per u

Meteor's maximum head-on engagement range is about 200 km.

 

[Lonewolf]

Meteor's maximum head-on engagement range is about 200 km.

So u fire meteor at 200 km or nez at 100 km or lower ?

And if u launch at lower distance , why can't it target a 2 m^2 target , where it's tracking range for such a target is beyond 120 km .

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I don't understand the obsession with meteor... SFDR is already in testing and will be in production couple of years. It is going to have same if not more range compare to Meteor.

My thoughts exactly.
SFDR will be operational around the time we have better radars and techniques.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

So u fire meteor at 200 km or nez at 100 km or lower ?

And if u launch at lower distance , why can't it target a 2 m^2 target , where it's tracking range for such a target is beyond 120 km .

NEZ of Meteor is about 60 km.
Why should be use such an expensive missile for half of its capabilities? Its waste of money and resources. We are not a rich country as such that can afford to waste money as such.
Wouldn't Astra Mk. 1 or Mk2 be better alternative for the same engagement.
With Meteor the goal is to out-range enemy so your aircraft won't be in harm's way.

 

[Lonewolf]

NEZ of Meteor is about 60 km.
Why should be use such an expensive missile for half of its capabilities? Its waste of money and resources. We are not a rich country as such that can afford to waste money as such.
Wouldn't Astra Mk. 1 or Mk2 be better alternative for the same engagement.

Check their nez , and firing beyond nez is wastage of missile .

It's like pre ejaculation .

And 2.5 million is a worthy investment against any fighter jet except junk j7

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Check their nez , and firing beyond nez is wastage of missile .

It's like pre ejaculation .

And 2.5 million is a worthy investment against any fighter jet except junk j7

This is exactly why I suggested Astra Mk1 and Mk 2.
We should reserve Meteor for J-20 and J-31.

 

[Lonewolf]

This is exactly why I suggested Astra Mk1 and Mk 2.
We should reserve Meteor for J-20 and J-31.

I meant wrt to Astra mk3 , desi counterpart . Imported meteor will be in short supply if we go on a war

 

[Dark Sorrow]

what are the limitations of Uttam mk2 in Tejas MK2?

Currently everything about Uttam Mk 2 is speculation. Even Uttam Mk 1 is under testing/development. Let them get operational first then we can debate about Meteor.
Prima facie it appears that with Uttam in current configuration we won't be able to utilize Meteor missile's with maximum capability.

 

[Dessert Storm]

NEZ of Meteor is about 60 km.
Why should be use such an expensive missile for half of its capabilities? Its waste of money and resources. We are not a rich country as such that can afford to waste money as such.
Wouldn't Astra Mk. 1 or Mk2 be better alternative for the same engagement.
With Meteor the goal is to out-range enemy so your aircraft won't be in harm's way.

If rich start wasting money, they won't remain rich. So that's no argument on spending. If Meteor on Tejas fits into the doctorine of IAF, why not. Integration of a missile on a fighter does not mean that it necessarily has to carry it. It may, it may not.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

If rich start wasting money, they won't remain rich. So that's no argument on spending. If Meteor on Tejas fits into the doctorine of IAF, why not. Integration of a missile on a fighter does not mean that it necessarily has to carry it. It may, it may not.

You are missing the point. MDBA is not willing to integrate Meteor with Tejas be it Indian/Israeli Fire Control Radar, Indian Data-link and Indian mission computer

 

[Kalkioftoday]

89 WhAp initially ordered?

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

You are missing the point. MDBA is not willing to integrate Meteor with Tejas be it Indian/Israeli Fire Control Radar, Indian Data-link and Indian mission computer

I think they only had issue with israeli/russian radars, they wanted Indian radar for integration..... Maybe will allow once Uttam comes in.

 

[MonaLazy]

MDBA is not willing to integrate Meteor with Tejas be it Indian/Israeli Fire Control Radar, Indian Data-link and Indian mission computer

From 2019,

ANALYSIS: Tejas regaining its lustre

India's state owned airframer Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) could soon be left with the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) as its sole fighter production line on completion of manufacturing under licence of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI next year, ending a 222-aircraft production run.

www.flightglobal.com

since then more options for meteor or meteor-like missiles have been put on the table for IAF to evaluate:

.. a similar route is also offered to IAF.

How China is fast catching up with the West in the race for air-to-air missile superiority

Recent AAM advancements in China, elevating it as a near peer competitor to the Western and Russian philosophies, has unlocked a new race to own the longest reach in the skies.

theprint.in

 

[Whitecollar]

You are missing the point. MDBA is not willing to integrate Meteor with Tejas be it Indian/Israeli Fire Control Radar, Indian Data-link and Indian mission computer

Why such a commotion over Meteor integration with Israeli/current Indian radar? Ofcourse it was IAF's demand back in 2015 but did they know back then that 36 Rafales would be joining the IAF? Now if they do have a Meteor firing platform, do they really need to rely on Tejas for same(given the probability they'll get 36 more in F4 config)?? Why do people forget the fact that if Israeli radar cannot get get go to integrate Meteor, it however can get permission for integrating upcoming AIM 260 BVR having the same range(200kms) even if it's not an SFDR. I've never seen anyone talk about integrating Amriki missiles on Tejas.

So currently in Tejas's BVR dept, you have iDerby ER, Astra MK1(upcoming), Astra MK2(upcoming), AIM 120 C-5(if IAF requests). If you again believe realistic timeline for MK2's serial production, then Astra MK3. Does that not work out enough for an Air Force?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

From 2019,

View attachment 131511

ANALYSIS: Tejas regaining its lustre

India's state owned airframer Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) could soon be left with the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) as its sole fighter production line on completion of manufacturing under licence of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI next year, ending a 222-aircraft production run.

www.flightglobal.com

since then more options for meteor or meteor-like missiles have been put on the table for IAF to evaluate:
View attachment 131513

.. a similar route is also offered to IAF.

How China is fast catching up with the West in the race for air-to-air missile superiority

Recent AAM advancements in China, elevating it as a near peer competitor to the Western and Russian philosophies, has unlocked a new race to own the longest reach in the skies.

theprint.in

Instead of Meteor or any other imported BVRAAM we should focus on Astra Mk. 1, Mk. 2, Mk. 3 and IR version.

 

[MonaLazy]

Tho they don't say so, this should be for the Mk2..

How this little-known Faridabad-based manufacturer ‘geared’ itself up for India’s LCA Tejas fighter jet
Ease of Doing Business for MSMEs: Designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency under the Department of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and manufactured by HAL, the light combat aircraft programme was started back in 1984.

Written by Sandeep Soni
January 25, 2022 9:04:37 pm

Ease of Doing Business for MSMEs: Faridabad-based Sanauto Engineers is a little-known yet significant player in aerospace, oil & gas, construction equipment, and other sectors. Particularly in the aerospace sector, the MSME led by Vinod Karwa has been manufacturing aerospace landing gears, its parts, and assemblies. It has already been working with aerospace heavyweights Boeing and Airbus for around 10 years and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for its helicopters. However, that didn’t get Karwa to straightaway be a part of the upcoming variant of the Tejas fighter aircraft indigenously being built by India.

“We used to earlier make electrical components for Hindustan Motors. After its production was suspended, we ventured into the aerospace segment back in 2009 and participated in different fairs showcasing our technology. Gradually, we started working with Boeing and Airbus, specializing in gear parts manufacturing,” Karwa told Financial Express Online.


Designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency under the Department of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and manufactured by HAL, the light combat aircraft programme was started back in 1984. So far, HAL and DRDO have worked on multiple variants – MK1, MK1A, MK2, a navy version and a trainer version. MK2, which is a 4.5 generation fighter, is expected to be rolled out this year with the first flight next year. India is also looking at a stealth aircraft dubbed as Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which would be a fifth-generation fighting machine, and would reportedly be rolled out in 2024 with an expected first flight in 2025.

While Karwa didn’t disclose the variant he is working for with DRDO and HAL citing confidentiality, he noted that private enterprises were invited to be a part of the upcoming variant under the Make in India campaign.

“They earlier wanted to develop everything in-house but under the Make in India campaign, private enterprises are now also being engaged for the upcoming version. We are one of the vendors working on different parts of the aircraft. In our case, we are developing landing gear actuators that are part of the gear retraction and extension device,” Karwa said.

Currently, the production timeline for the variant hasn’t been finalised but Karwa has got the prototype ready. “Even as we had prior experience, we weren’t gifted the contract right away. There were multiple discussions, physical visits to our plant in Faridabad beginning from 2020 and showcasing of our production capabilities with exact quality standards required without any deviation before the design of the product was shared with us.”


Sanauto is through with the development stage of the part and has already got it approved. The final production would be underway once there is direction by DRDO and HAL. The product prototype development cost was around Rs 1.20 crore. “We are happy that we are contributing to boosting the defence capabilities of the country. While the authorities are planning to begin production by 2025, it might take some more time. The requirement for the actuators would be for a fleet of over 100 new jets of the upcoming variant,” said Karwa.

How this little-known Faridabad-based manufacturer ‘geared’ itself up for India’s LCA Tejas fighter jet

Ease of Doing Business for MSMEs: Designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency under the Department of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and manufactured by HAL, the light combat aircraft programme was started back in 1984.

www.financialexpress.com