ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Vaibhavseafarer]

View attachment 88755
4700lt fuel in droptanks here, another 4200lt (3388kg) internally.

Assuming some paylosd of 2×ASM, 2×BVRAAM, 2×CCM in the leftover it should comfortably reach 3000km... given LCA Tejas can be ferried about 2000km at less than 2/3rd that fuel, but with inferior aerodynamic & not drag-optimised droptanks.

Matlab yeh jadeed ladaka tayiarra Islamabad ho ha Peshawar. Sab jagah hamla kr sakta

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Both crytalline SiC fiber/SiC CMC and carbon fiber/SiC CMC have been developed in NAL through Chemical Vapour Infiltration (ICVI) process way back in 2009 itself.

Bruh. Look at the SiC fibers they used in it. Those are commercially available SiC fibers from a Japanese company whose major shareholders are:-

1. Nippon Carbon
2. GE
3. Safran

I think its this company only that is supplying the fibers for GE's CMC.

The fiber they used is superior to the one produced by that DRDO patented method. We aren't even able to produce something they had back in 2009. We have a ways to go.

In 2018 project was initiated to develop improved variant of sic fibre.

Nice. Source for the information? My guess is they will be aiming to reduce Si-O phase first.

 

[Trololo]

Yep.. Not here tho

Will the vertical stabiliser feature an integrated jammer similar to the Gripen? If not, where will that jammer be fitted?

 

[Bleh]

Will the vertical stabiliser feature an integrated jammer similar to the Gripen? If not, where will that jammer be fitted?

Nobody knows! Maybe there won't be a single jammer. Integrated EW can have its sections recieving & emitting sections embedded over the fuselage at different places... Or it could be in that hump in spine, above engine.

Gun will probably be a pod, the 30mm from ADA brochure. It can't be fit at the wing roots as claimed by some sources, that endangers the canards.

 

[onlinpunit]

ADA's most likely gonna be using this refueling-probe retraction mechanism of Jaguar, on the Tejas Mark2... It's the simplest one of all the jets we make in India & takes up least internal space (a major factor in MWF's case). The positioning, as well as angle are an exact match in both.

Are we using same probe in MK1 and 1A ?

 

[Bleh]

Are we using same probe in MK1 and 1A ?

Seems so..

 

[fire starter]

Bruh. Look at the SiC fibers they used in it. Those are commercially available SiC fibers from a Japanese company whose major shareholders are:-

1. Nippon Carbon
2. GE
3. Safran

I think its this company only that is supplying the fibers for GE's CMC.

The fiber they used is superior to the one produced by that DRDO patented method. We aren't even able to produce something they had back in 2009. We have a ways to go.


Nice. Source for the information? My guess is they will be aiming to reduce Si-O phase first.

 

[MirageBlue]

ADA's most likely gonna be using this refueling-probe retraction mechanism of Jaguar, on the Tejas Mark2... It's the simplest one of all the jets we make in India & takes up least internal space (a major factor in MWF's case). The positioning, as well as angle are an exact match in both.

I have been thinking of it too..what was never made clear was that whether it was to be retractable as well as telescoping..

My guess is the same as yours- that it won't be telescoping (where a part of the probe actually moves in or out depending on whether it is being extended or retracted) and will instead be semi or fully conformal with the MWF's composite skin panels.

 

[Trololo]

I have been thinking of it too..what was never made clear was that whether it was to be retractable as well as telescoping..

My guess is the same as yours- that it won't be telescoping (where a part of the probe actually moves in or out depending on whether it is being extended or retracted) and will instead be semi or fully conformal with the MWF's composite skin panels.

Fully conformal from some of the internal drawings I've seen. 2 designs are being looked at. 1 is a Jag type probe and the other is a telescoping probe attached by an inclined arm inside the port side of the cockpit. The Jag type will mostly be chosen.

 

[onlinpunit]

Fully conformal from some of the internal drawings I've seen. 2 designs are being looked at. 1 is a Jag type probe and the other is a telescoping probe attached by an inclined arm inside the port side of the cockpit. The Jag type will mostly be chosen.

Why they don't go for retractable probe ?

 

[Lonewolf]

Why they don't go for retractable probe ?

What problem with jaguar type

 

[MirageBlue]

What will be the approx Combat radius of MWF?
Anyone with rough calculations?

This is the Specific Fuel Consumption of the GE F-414-400 engine..I suspect the INS6 variant will be quite close to that figure as well.

F414-GE-400
(MIL) 14,700lbs @ 0.840 lb/HR/lb of thrust or 6,681 kgs @ 0.382 kg/HR/kg of thrust
(MAX) 22,000lbs @ 1.850 lb/HR/lb of thrust or 10,000 kgs @ 0.84 kg/HR/kg of thrust

That means it consumes 0.3819 kg of fuel to generate 1 kg of thrust for an hour.
So, to generate 6,681 kg of thrust for 1 hour, it will consume 0.3819 * 6681 = 2551 kg of fuel

MWF's internal fuel capacity is 3300 kg AFAIR, which means that if it doesn't use Afterburner, it can stay airborne on military dry thrust for

(3300*60 mins) / 2551 = 77.61 minutes

This will be the approximate endurance of the MWF on internal fuel alone, without accounting for the use of afterburner to take-off, plus reserves that one needs to have in case the runway at the base is not available or there are multiple missed approaches or go-arounds due to bad weather at the landing base.

To compute combat radius, we will need to specify what number of drop tanks it will carry, what weapons (2 BVRAAMs, 2 WVRAAMs?) and also a clear mission profile..

A general CAP mission would have the following segments..and I know this is the correct approach because this is how we used to calculate the Block Fuel required for an airliner to fly between any 2 airports with specified waypoints. Breaking down the flight into it's different segments where different fuel amounts were used..take off versus cruise for e.g.

So, the segments of a CAP mission would be:

1) Taxi from shelter to runway
2) Take-off with Afterburner on
3) Climb to altitude
4) Fly to CAP station or point where combat expected
5) Keep fuel reserves for combat lasting at least 5 minutes. Keep fuel reserves assuming that Afterburner will be used in case a turning dogfight ensues
6) Egress from CAP station or point where combat ensued. Typically egress is done at lower altitudes to allow terrain masking if possible or use ground clutter to weaken radar returns. If you're escaping a BVRAAM fired at you and egressing, expect to use Afterburner to out-run the BVRAAM
7) Reach base
8) Land with adequate fuel reserves to allow at least 2 missed approaches or go-arounds in case air base is busy or runway is unavailable due to poor weather or enemy action


Interception missions could have the pilot use afterburner for even climbing to altitude or attempting to reach the target faster. Barrier CAP missions could involve planning to stay in the combat area for a longer period to account for any stragglers from a strike package that would need to be defended.

So there is no 1 Combat Radius figure that is accurate. It all depends on the various scenarios, loadouts, payload, etc.

 

[MirageBlue]

Gripen ng equivalent

It should closely match the Combat Radius of a Gripen E for any given mission, since the Gripen E carries 3,400 kg internally whereas the MWF will carry 3,388 kgs internally..

But what about drop tanks? The MWF will use the bulbous nosed drop tanks inspired by those of the Mirage-2000 and Rafale for long range missions, but what about the Gripen E?

See the YT link below for the new Gripen E drop tanks.

Gripen E has new drop tanks, but not of the bulbous nose variety. So the drag factor may be higher in the case of Gripen E's drop tanks, but without access to data one can't be sure.

But one can safely assume that with the aerodynamic improvements in the MWF, it's area ruling, the 1.35m length increase (which improves the fineness ratio of the Tejas Mk2 MWF over the Tejas Mk1 significantly), it's drag will be in the range of the Gripen E.

 

[onlinpunit]

What problem with jaguar type

Retractable probe has its own advantage.
No drag
No blind spot.

 

[Karthi]

nal developed C/SiC and SiC/SiC composite products through CVI Process. These high performance composites find applications in strategic sectors (e.g. Jet vanes, exhaust cones, engine flaps, thermal protection system (TPS) in space craft structures, nose cap, wing leading edge, aircraft brakes, Fusion reactor :Flow Channel Insert, CD nozzle flaps and Exhaust cone and V gutter for gas turbine engine, nuclear fission reactor: fuel tube). CSIR-NAL has successfully demonstrated the process know-how for the fabrication of SiCf/SiC & Cf/SiC on pilot plant scale.

don't know about he generation but I think his one is 3rd or beyond. research is going on for better materials . @Okabe Rintarou please chill we ma be behind ge but don't compare ge with India . we developed our own and can improve , unlike US we are no getting much support form west .

this one ma be he new under development sic from GE . @Okabe Rintarou if u are free please do a research on this. and post details

 

[Lonewolf]

View attachment 88892

nal developed C/SiC and SiC/SiC composite products through CVI Process. These high performance composites find applications in strategic sectors (e.g. Jet vanes, exhaust cones, engine flaps, thermal protection system (TPS) in space craft structures, nose cap, wing leading edge, aircraft brakes, Fusion reactor :Flow Channel Insert, CD nozzle flaps and Exhaust cone and V gutter for gas turbine engine, nuclear fission reactor: fuel tube). CSIR-NAL has successfully demonstrated the process know-how for the fabrication of SiCf/SiC & Cf/SiC on pilot plant scale.

don't know about he generation but I think his one is 3rd or beyond. research is going on for better materials . @Okabe Rintarou please chill we ma be behind ge but don't compare ge with India . we developed our own and can improve , unlike US we are no getting much support form west .

this one ma be he new under development sic from GE . @Okabe Rintarou if u are free please do a research on this. and post details

Sir anything about ad 1 ,ad 2 test ??

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

View attachment 88841

Makes sense. DRDO got their 1st gen SiC fiber patent in 2018. They will develop it further now.
.

View attachment 88892

nal developed C/SiC and SiC/SiC composite products through CVI Process. These high performance composites find applications in strategic sectors (e.g. Jet vanes, exhaust cones, engine flaps, thermal protection system (TPS) in space craft structures, nose cap, wing leading edge, aircraft brakes, Fusion reactor :Flow Channel Insert, CD nozzle flaps and Exhaust cone and V gutter for gas turbine engine, nuclear fission reactor: fuel tube). CSIR-NAL has successfully demonstrated the process know-how for the fabrication of SiCf/SiC & Cf/SiC on pilot plant scale.

For the NAL developed SiC/SiC CMC:-

Bruh. Look at the SiC fibers they used in it. Those are commercially available SiC fibers from a Japanese company whose major shareholders are:-

1. Nippon Carbon
2. GE
3. Safran

I think its this company only that is supplying the fibers for GE's CMC.

The fiber they used is superior to the one produced by that DRDO patented method. We aren't even able to produce something they had back in 2009. We have a ways to go.

^ We can't rely on GE to supply us the SiC fiber, which is why DRDO is working on our own tech. I think NAL stopped using these commercial fibers for their research after around 2013. They must be waiting for domestic SiC fiber quality to improve.

research is going on for better materials . @Okabe Rintarou please chill we ma be behind ge but don't compare ge with India . we developed our own and can improve , unlike US we are no getting much support form west .

I am not comparing India to GE as a means to look down upon the efforts of DRDO, CSIR and ISRO. I am doing it to highlight that despite our best efforts, we are behind and will not be able to mature these technologies in time for the AMCA engine, especially not for turbine blades. Highlighting it just as a point of information so that we don't develop some unrealistic expectations out of DRDO. They are working hard, I can see that. Just wished that GoI could assign national importance to the goal of developing Gas Turbine tech.

this one ma be he new under development sic from GE . @Okabe Rintarou if u are free please do a research on this. and post details

Not GE. This is Sylramic-iBN SiC fiber which is developed by NASA. I think this is 3rd gen with >100 nm grain size and near-stoichiometric.

 

[Bleh]

Progress on minor detailings..

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Detailing progress.. View attachment 89213

If i would like anything to be worked out in most detail, it is aerodynamics. It affects speed, acceleration, AOA, ITR, STR etc. It will stay for ever. Electronics and weapons will come and go.

 

[Bleh]

If i would like anything to be worked out in most detail, it is aerodynamics.

Body is nearly 100% perfect... That's why the older MWF-model was discarded & recreated from scratch.