ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

abingdonboy

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HAL ramps up Tejas production

Bengaluru: The activities at LCA Tejas Division of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) have reached a fever pitch. The engineers, designers and the shop floor crew are committed to beat the March, 2019, deadline and deliver the remaining five Tejas fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The IAF pilots from Flying Daggers are warming up to ferry out a new fighter from Tejas production line to AFS Sulur, the home of No 45 Squadron, Flying Daggers.

The squadron will get one more flying machine in two weeks after the Test Pilots complete the mandatory Customer Acceptance Flight (CAF).

The fighters from SP-12 to SP-16, the remaining from the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) block are all on the final equipping phase. While SP-12, SP-14 and SP-16 are with the LCA Tejas Division, SP-13 and SP-15 are with the second production line at the Aircraft Division.

This is the first time ever that the Tejas production line at HAL is witnessing so much of activities. There is a renewed energy seen all over and better synergy between all the stakeholders.

The recent review of the project by Dr Ajay Kumar, Secretary (Defence Production), is said to have given clarity to all stakeholders to overcome the bottlenecks and to find a way forward for stepped-up Tejas production. His interactions and assurances seem to have boosted the morale of team HAL.

“The production rate of IOC fighters has been really ramped up at the LCA Tejas Division. Starting from one aircraft in 2015-16, it has been gradually increased to two and five aircraft in the next two production years. During 2018-19 fiscal, we are confident of delivering eight aircraft. We had our share of issues in the past and all that is now sorted out,” said an official.

The SP-12 fighter is ready to undergo a full performance EGR (engine ground run) signalling that it will be ready to kiss the skies for the first time in a week.

HAL officials say that SP-13 and SP-15 will be ready for maiden flights in December. The Aircraft Division will hand over these two fighters to the Tejas Division after conducting the HSTT (high-speed taxi trials).

What clicked for LCA Division

After having taken the hit from all corners for poor delivery of Tejas, HAL handpicked some of the best brains and made them part of programme at the LCA Division. Huge strides have been made now on improving the supply chain management and most importantly the follow-up mechanisms.

The man who heads the LCA Division P G Yogindra, an Executive Director, is said to have a played stellar role at the Hawk assembly lines, ensuring deliveries ahead of the schedule. His expertise in supply chain management is coming handy for the Tejas project now.

The review mechanism, delegation of responsibilities, increased interaction with vendors and fast-tracking of part supplies have propelled the Tejas production plans.

As a result, the assembly cycle time and waiting period for parts have been reduced – an accusation often HAL faced in the past. “We have made all efforts to ramp up the production in phases. Now, we are able to source items in advance. The front fuselage structure of Tejas now takes 53 days to be completed and this used to take four to five months in the past. Various teams have sat down and brain-stormed and we have found many answers,” said an official.

HAL is awaiting a major milestone when L&T Aerospace delivers the wings of Tejas. This it says will be a major step in Make in India and its partnership with a private industry. The last fighter in the IOC series SP-16 will be the first to be integrated with the wings from L&T.

FOC fighters join the party

The team at LCA Tejas Division is excited as they have begun the preparations for producing the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) variants of Tejas. While the FOC announcement is expected next month, the division has already begun advanced stages of production of 10 sets of detail parts.

The assembly of two sets of air fame have already started for SP-21 and SP-22. The parts for SP-23 and SP-24 will be up by the first week of December.

The provisional DAL (Drawing Applicability List) for FOC fighters were released in October, 2017, and the amended one in August, 2018. DAL is the standard of preparation for production that forms the basis for the final product to be delivered to the customer.

“Structural assembly of major modules such as front fuselage, (FF), centre fuselage (CF) and rear fuselage (RF) of SP-21 onwards are already under progress, in the structural assembly hanger of LCA Tejas Division. Incidentally, the floor assembly of SP-21 FF Stage-1 has been provisionally cleared by qualifying authorities which is a significant milestone towards our FOC missions,” added the official.

HAL says that the first FOC fighter (SP-21) will fly out by October, 2019. It is hopeful of creating a new benchmark by delivering 16 aircraft during 2019-20 fiscal.

As reported by Onmanorama earlier, IAF and HAL seem to have ironed out their differences over Tejas trainers.

It is expected that the DAL or the build-standard of eight trainers in the FOC version will be now be ready by February, 2019, and the first plane will be likely available to IAF by September, 2021.

The 1,000-plus workforce of LCA Tejas Division probably is aware that the future of HAL is currently hinged on to their performances. A plane not wanted by many till recently has suddenly become the hope for a company, its user and the nation.

The upgraded versions of Tejas set to fly out in the future will be a testimony to the belief that making is better than buying.

(The writer is an independent aerospace, defence journalist, who blogs at Tarmak007 and tweets @writetake.)
Sounds good on the face of it but I am concerned.

SP16 by early 2019.

SP-21 (FOC) by October 2019. Can HAL really deliver 10+ FOC SP by March 2020 in just 6 months (if their target of 16 in the next FY is to be respected)?

Assuming the above. All IOC and FOC MK.1 fighters will be delivered by mid-2020, then what? The 8 Trainers won’t be delivered before 2021.

So without MK.1A production from the middle of 2020, HAL will be back down to 8/year?

How does the 3rd line fit into these plans?

40 LCA will be delivered by the middle of 2021 that’s all we can say but this doesn’t fit with 16/year from 2019-20. There should be 50+.


This ramping up is painfully slow. I understand that this is largely because of the lack of stability in orders- waiting on designs for FOC and trainers has obviously had an impact. IAF should have ordered 30 IOC fighters and 30 FOC, then production could’ve ramped up much earlier and the IAF would be getting serious numbers. 20 with 16 being fighters is just too small to have ramped up thus far hence 5-8/year.

Even 83 MK.1A isn’t enough. Numbers should be doubled so HAL can really touch 20+/year capacity.
 

Advaidhya Tiwari

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Sounds good on the face of it but I am concerned.

SP16 by early 2019.

SP-21 (FOC) by October 2019. Can HAL really deliver 10+ FOC SP by March 2020 in just 6 months (if their target of 16 in the next FY is to be respected)?

Assuming the above. All IOC and FOC MK.1 fighters will be delivered by mid-2020, then what? The 8 Trainers won’t be delivered before 2021.

So without MK.1A production from the middle of 2020, HAL will be back down to 8/year?

How does the 3rd line fit into these plans?

40 LCA will be delivered by the middle of 2021 that’s all we can say but this doesn’t fit with 16/year from 2019-20. There should be 50+.

This ramping up is painfully slow. I understand that this is largely because of the lack of stability in orders- waiting on designs for FOC and trainers has obviously had an impact. IAF should have ordered 30 IOC fighters and 30 FOC, then production could’ve ramped up much earlier and the IAF would be getting serious numbers. 20 with 16 being fighters is just too small to have ramped up thus far hence 5-8/year.

Even 83 MK.1A isn’t enough. Numbers should be doubled so HAL can really touch 20+/year capacity.
The Tejas needs 7months to assemble in normal time (It can be speeded up to 1 month in war times by working 3 shifts and in full force without holidays on Saturday/Sunday). So, it is perfectly possible to make planes in 7 month time and hence deliver the target number of planes.

Tejas MK1A is just like Tejas FOC-2. It will be over in 2 years after FOC at best. So, manufacturing of Tejas Mk1A should begin by FY2022. In the mean time, HAL will be making Tejas MK1 IOC & FOC for the 2 years.

The delivery of 16 Tejas in FY20 is just a hope and not a promise. It is author's own words. Tejas manufacturing is likely to stay about 8-12 per year till FY2021. Once MK1A starts by Fy22, it may rise to 16-20 per year. But at the same time, MK2 prototype will also be in making which may consume some space in the assembly line.

Also, Tejas MK1 or Mk1A is not what is the desired variant. What is desired is Tejas MK2. But since Tejas Mk2 is not ready yet and will take till FY2026 to get FOC, Tejas Mk1 and MK1A is being used used only for the time being as a temporary arrangement to provide for the required expertise and infrastructure to be built in the mean time which will then be used to make MK2 version quickly from the beginning.

Making more MK1 will be bad for long term as India will have to use these planes for decades and hence a few years of haste may force India to use less optimal plane. It is best that MK1 version will be used only as a stepping stone to get the infrastructure rather than just jingoist race for fast delivery
 

Defenceanalyst91

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Obviously, IOC order will be complete by mid-2019, HAL has already started preparing the airframes for the FOC batch (post SP-21)



I don't know what you are talking about, FOC will either happen in Dec 2018 (according to ADA chief) or very very early 2019, it is weeks away now.
Here is report from 10 years back regarding LCA FOC.
https://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20081103_lca_tejas.html

Interacting with the media during his visit to the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Antony said, "The final operational clearances for the indigenously developed aircraft will be given by 2010." :rofl::frusty::facepalm::frown:
 

no smoking

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40 years for a country with massive R&D budget and enough of manpower is for sure.
Massive R&D budget? Indian scientists will cry if they hear this. In 2016-2017, India's R&D was barely over $14 billions. That was a big money, but if you spread it into a country with 1.3 billion population, R&D in most of industrial department is peanuts. Furthermore, today's technology is developed based on historic R&D spending, not today's alone. If you look at India's R&D spending in history, you should be thrilled by the achievement of India.

Bureaucratic formalities & petty delays in production have been accumulating over years.
That is quite natural for any developing country which is working on her own science development. No country got a perfect R&D system from the beginning. Do you think this kind thing doesn't happen in China, South Korea, Japan?
 

abingdonboy

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The Tejas needs 7months to assemble in normal time (It can be speeded up to 1 month in war times by working 3 shifts and in full force without holidays on Saturday/Sunday). So, it is perfectly possible to make planes in 7 month time and hence deliver the target number of planes.

Tejas MK1A is just like Tejas FOC-2. It will be over in 2 years after FOC at best. So, manufacturing of Tejas Mk1A should begin by FY2022. In the mean time, HAL will be making Tejas MK1 IOC & FOC for the 2 years.

The delivery of 16 Tejas in FY20 is just a hope and not a promise. It is author's own words. Tejas manufacturing is likely to stay about 8-12 per year till FY2021. Once MK1A starts by Fy22, it may rise to 16-20 per year. But at the same time, MK2 prototype will also be in making which may consume some space in the assembly line.

Also, Tejas MK1 or Mk1A is not what is the desired variant. What is desired is Tejas MK2. But since Tejas Mk2 is not ready yet and will take till FY2026 to get FOC, Tejas Mk1 and MK1A is being used used only for the time being as a temporary arrangement to provide for the required expertise and infrastructure to be built in the mean time which will then be used to make MK2 version quickly from the beginning.

Making more MK1 will be bad for long term as India will have to use these planes for decades and hence a few years of haste may force India to use less optimal plane. It is best that MK1 version will be used only as a stepping stone to get the infrastructure rather than just jingoist race for fast delivery

So all SPs to SP-16 by March 2019 (let's say Mid-2019 just to be safe)



Then SP-21 (FOC) onwards will be delivered from Sept/Oct 2019


Sometime in 2020 work on the MK.1 trainers (SP 17-20, 37-40) commences for deliveries ending mid-2021.


Then production work on the MK.1As will commence and hopefully at this point (Nasik will also be online as an additional LCA division) HAL can ramp up to 16-20/year so by around 2024-25 production of MK.2 is ready.


This seems like a pretty doable and practical plan, I just hope HAL gets left alone so they can get their heads down and deliever.


As it stands Parrikar's move to greenlight the MK.1A was a masterstroke, it will allow HAL to ramp up and stabilise production ahead of the fighter the IAF really wants (MK.2) but whilst inducted still a pretty potent fighter with plenty of toys- the AESA radar particuarly is a real plus. It will bring AESA to the IAF's low-end fighter 4-5 years earlier than was planned and will also incentivise the development of UTTAM. Without the Mk.1A I'm not sure what would've happened in between the end of the 40 MK.1 production and commencment of MK.2's, maybe 40 more?
 

kamaal

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Even 83 MK.1A isn’t enough. Numbers should be doubled so HAL can really touch 20+/year capacity.
I am up for 83+40=123 MK1A, just to be safe in case MK2 gets delayed by 2-3 years i.e. 2026. Also more order for 1A depends on performance compared to MK1, there will be extensive testing before going for extra 1As. Remember IAF never wanted 1As, it is only filling gap between MK2 & MK1.

At first, lets just wait for final specification of MK1A. 2021-22 is still 3 years away.
 

Pulkit

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I am up for 83+40=123 MK1A, just to be safe in case MK2 gets delayed by 2-3 years i.e. 2026. Also more order for 1A depends on performance compared to MK1, there will be extensive testing before going for extra 1As. Remember IAF never wanted 1As, it is only filling gap between MK2 & MK1.

At first, lets just wait for final specification of MK1A. 2021-22 is still 3 years away.
IAF also didnt want Tejas Mk1 and given the improvements they have chosen Mk1A to be more potent that Mk1.
Till Mk2 arrives i believe they will keep the production line running so there is scope of additional orders.

But we must remember:
1) HAL is not gonna deliver on time.
2)Production rate is definitely gonna be low.
3)Mk2 development can never be on time.
 

Pulkit

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Hye Guys been away from forum for some time now.
Can anyone please update me incase any progress has been mode in the last few months?

I am asking only after reading last two to three pages of comments...
 

Chinmoy

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So all SPs to SP-16 by March 2019 (let's say Mid-2019 just to be safe)



Then SP-21 (FOC) onwards will be delivered from Sept/Oct 2019


Sometime in 2020 work on the MK.1 trainers (SP 17-20, 37-40) commences for deliveries ending mid-2021.


Then production work on the MK.1As will commence and hopefully at this point (Nasik will also be online as an additional LCA division) HAL can ramp up to 16-20/year so by around 2024-25 production of MK.2 is ready.


This seems like a pretty doable and practical plan, I just hope HAL gets left alone so they can get their heads down and deliever.


As it stands Parrikar's move to greenlight the MK.1A was a masterstroke, it will allow HAL to ramp up and stabilise production ahead of the fighter the IAF really wants (MK.2) but whilst inducted still a pretty potent fighter with plenty of toys- the AESA radar particuarly is a real plus. It will bring AESA to the IAF's low-end fighter 4-5 years earlier than was planned and will also incentivise the development of UTTAM. Without the Mk.1A I'm not sure what would've happened in between the end of the 40 MK.1 production and commencment of MK.2's, maybe 40 more?
HAL is not going to ramp up production unless and untill they get order for 83 numbers. IAF is not going to order unless and untill they get a ramp up production. Things are just going a merry go round right now. Neither IAF is giving further order other then the 40, nor HAL is ramping up the production because of it.
 

Sancho

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HAL is not going to ramp up production unless and untill they get order for 83 numbers. IAF is not going to order unless and untill they get a ramp up production.
IAFs problem is not the production rate at this point, but the costs of MK1A, which are far higher than expected and with the limited budgets, that's an issue when you have to buy more important fighters and force multipliers too. That's why the MK1A stays at RFP stage for nearly a year now and MoD is investigating the issue to find a solution.
 

Chinmoy

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IAFs problem is not the production rate at this point, but the costs of MK1A, which are far higher than expected and with the limited budgets, that's an issue when you have to buy more important fighters and force multipliers too. That's why the MK1A stays at RFP stage for nearly a year now and MoD is investigating the issue to find a solution.
Agree...... But IAF is obviously blind to the fact that HAL is bringing up production facility for the same and the proposed price is inclusive of the production unit. After all HAL would have to make profit even though its a public sector unit.

Manufacturing and production of any jets is a long term project and for India IAF would have to look it as a turnkey project rather then off the self project. This shortsightedness of IAF is also not encouraging private sector to jump into the fray. Even if ADA & HAL would want to go for ToT route in case of Tejas, no private player to show interest as of now.
 

Sancho

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Agree...... But IAF is obviously blind to the fact that HAL is bringing up production facility for the same and the proposed price is inclusive of the production unit. After all HAL would have to make profit even though its a public sector unit.
IAF knows why it costs more, but their priority has to be the national defence and since LCA alone can't protect the country, while the government is restricting defence spending, they can't afford to waste money. They want LCA, but not at all costs, because they need high techs to compete with our enemies.

Also let's not forget, that we are talking about a version that is based on FOC, which still wasn't achieved yet. So IAF is forced to have quite some trust in ADAs and HALs promises here.
 

Chinmoy

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IAF knows why it costs more, but their priority has to be the national defence and since LCA alone can't protect the country, while the government is restricting defence spending, they can't afford to waste money. They want LCA, but not at all costs, because they need high techs to compete with our enemies.

Also let's not forget, that we are talking about a version that is based on FOC, which still wasn't achieved yet. So IAF is forced to have quite some trust in ADAs and HALs promises here.
I agree on their version and what you said. But this is what I have been saying from day one here. This shortsightedness of IAF and IA has made us the biggest importer of weapons.

It has always been the budget which has played in forefront of each and every acquittal. But eventually we would have to spend on our own system someday. Its not just about Tejas right now, its about the aircraft industry. World is moving towards 5 gen and eventually we would have to have one someday. But do we expect to get one from someplace else eventually all the time?

On the RFP issue, I agree that HAL has quoted a higher price then expected. But instead of delaying the process on base of it, IAF should have suggested a middle way. Why not order 100 instead of 83 and ask HAL to work on price? Acquiring a fighter jet is always a costly affair. Even if we go for next 110 MMRCA, it would cost us a dear. Why not compromise on number of both MMRCA and Tejas and ask HAL to compromise on price? Instead of 110, if we go for 100 MMRCA we could have a 5 sqdns of those and order 100 Tejas instead of 83, we would have a sqdn of 7. The cost of 10 MMRCA could be rerouted to Tejas. IAF would have to look out for local technology also along with shiny foreign toys. When we talk about national security and interest, we have to understand that it can't be fulfilled by borrowed tech only.
 

Sancho

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This shortsightedness of IAF and IA has made us the biggest importer of weapons.
Which is factually wrong, because it's the inability of our industry, to develop and produce arms and techs, that suit the operational requirements, that makes us the biggest importer!

Even after decades, our industry struggles to develop a 4th gen low end fighter, while our threat perception increased to counter 5th gen fighters. We hope that our industry will be able to deliver 5th gen fighters in 2030, while the threat perception will have changed then again. So this imbalance makes imports necessary, because the security of the nation has to come first!


On the RFP issue, I agree that HAL has quoted a higher price then expected. But instead of delaying the process on base of it, IAF should have suggested a middle way. Why not order 100 instead of 83 and ask HAL to work on price?
IAF was generous to accept the MK1A stop gap in the first place, which itself is a favour for HAL and the whole Tejas programme, because MK1A doesn't solve the performance problems, nor was it what ADA promised them to be available by now (LCA MK2). So why should IAF buy even more of them and waste more of their limited budget, to give HAL another favour? You can't expect the forces to make concessions over and over again, just to get an indigenous product into production.

Acquiring a fighter jet is always a costly affair.
True, but here again, part of the high costs, are based on the fact, that we have to import so much once again because the inability of the industry. Be it the nose, IFR probe, BVR missiles, radar, or EW, all supposed to be indigenous by now, but after years of development and high amounts of money invested, we had no choice than to import alternatives.

The cost of 10 MMRCA could be rerouted to Tejas
Which hampers with natonal security, because you need multiple LCAs, to do what a single MMRCA does and still would have lower technical capabilities.
You can't cut operational requirements short like that. We need MKIs and MMRCAs, to counter the enemies. We need Tejas to support MKIs and MMRCAs.

When we talk about national security and interest, we have to understand that it can't be fulfilled by borrowed tech only.
True, but the way out is to improve the industry and the development programmes, not to force IAF, IA or IN to use substandard equipment, because that is all the industry can come up with.
 

patriots

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NYC update. again we are closing to foc .......
we have capabilities in tejas which we dont have in its brochure. . ......
 

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IAF and IA are sole responsible for their pathetic states. Army doesn't know what calibre / type rifle, tanks, instruments they need? IAF don't want Tejas, PAK FA, and no body giving us F-35 so what we gonna do after 2030??( AMCA it will come around 2040). 32 squadrons when we are flying junk mig-21, 23, 27 and Jaguar, in another words we have only around 22 effective squadrons that's why we had to buy S-400. Moreover, just to keep them aflote we have go various junk yard. They never have money when its come to buy indigenous products but for foreign maal, it's urgent!
 

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