ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

brahmastra11

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
206
Likes
159
First let them replace atleast 2 sqdns with LSP 8 std.. There is always tomorrow..

We shall call that Tejas Mk II NG with Decklander's specification :)

This length increase is possible if we go for 120 kn version of GE-414-EPE. otherwise IAF will advance the nitpicking argument that due to the weight increase(resulting from the length increase of 14 to 15 meter) LCA Tejas mk-2 is underpowered and obsolete.

That is why ignoring these obvious benefits ADA is just going for 0.5 meter increase in length resulting in much lower increase in range and weapon load, because it is not going to get the 120 kn EPE version.

And in it's place it may get EPE variant giving a thrust of around 110 kn in the GE-414-INS 6 version . So in order to give a much higher Thrust to weight ratio for MK-2 ADA is just going for 0.5 meter increase in length behind the nose cone is my idea.

If only IAF insists on GE-414-EPE with a full 120 kn thrust the modification you have suggested can be effected giving LCA Tejas mk-2 much more powerful radar , EW suit, along with higher weapon load and range while preserving it's high Thrust to weight ratio.it will give tejas mk-2 the option of ten hard point and much more space to put on a CFT and a high number of long range BVRs along with much heavier strike load.

But still with 0.5 meter length increase and 108 KN engine tejas mk-2 will have much better weapon load configuration than mk-1, while improving it's specs due to higher TWR.

What is the correct power out put of GE-414-IN S 6?
 

Decklander

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
2,654
Likes
4,111
This length increase is possible if we go for 120 kn version of GE-414-EPE. otherwise IAF will advance the nitpicking argument that due to the weight increase(resulting from the length increase of 14 to 15 meter) LCA Tejas mk-2 is underpowered and obsolete.

That is why ignoring these obvious benefits ADA is just going for 0.5 meter increase in length resulting in much lower increase in range and weapon load, because it is not going to get the 120 kn EPE version.

And in it's place it may get EPE variant giving a thrust of around 110 kn in the GE-414-INS 6 version . So in order to give a much higher Thrust to weight ratio for MK-2 ADA is just going for 0.5 meter increase in length behind the nose cone is my idea.

If only IAF insists on GE-414-EPE with a full 120 kn thrust the modification you have suggested can be effected giving LCA Tejas mk-2 much more powerful radar , EW suit, along with higher weapon load and range while preserving it's high Thrust to weight ratio.it will give tejas mk-2 the option of ten hard point and much more space to put on a CFT and a high number of long range BVRs along with much heavier strike load.

But still with 0.5 meter length increase and 108 KN engine tejas mk-2 will have much better weapon load configuration than mk-1, while improving it's specs due to higher TWR.

What is the correct power out put of GE-414-IN S 6?
No one knows for sure but Boeing had indicated it to be about 108KN which translates to 11 tons of thrust. We have a thumb rule regarding what shud be the MTOW for optimum perf for a given thrust. And that thumb rule is that for best perf from an aircraft the MTOW of an ac must not exeed the dry thrust in pounds i.e for an engine with 13k pounds thrust, the MTOW shud not exceed 13 tons. INS6 engine is likely to have a dry thrust of 15k pounds ( 70KN) so the optimum MTOW shud be 15 tons.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
It takes very little effort to modify an existing design than a clean sheet design. my suggestions were w.r.t Mk-1. these can be very easily incorporated into MK-2. The ADA & DRDO must dump their mentality of trying to keep it small and go for 14-15 meter length now itself.
I know and I support that idea too. We should have gone after a larger fighter ever since the failure of Mk1. The overall combat capability would have been far better than what's even on the MK2. If it is meant to be better than Gripen NG, that's even better. If it is just short of F-16 Block 60, even that would have been a great goal. The requirement for Rafale and AMCA would have vanished if we included iterative modifications of this LCA-NG.

However my question is how relevant will it be when our enemies have 5th gen fighters in their arsenal? Since LCA-NG would still be a "previous generation" aircraft regardless of the advancement in other aspects like avionics. The problem is we may end up inducting a LCA - NG when our rivals would be inducting J-20/J-31 type of aircraft. If both aircraft have superior capabilities compared to J-11/J-10, then how relevant will LCA be in such a situation?
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
No one knows for sure but Boeing had indicated it to be about 108KN which translates to 11 tons of thrust.
I would still say the INS6 is 98KN, perhaps with an extra 10KN emergency thrust for Naval version.
 

Austin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
852
Likes
363
Both Naval and IAF version would have the same thrust level as they would use the same engine eventually , so INS6 is 98 kn which is ~ 10 T and 2kn more than Gripen-NG
 

Lions Of Punjab

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
652
Likes
926
Country flag


if thats true and can be achieved in required time then do we need MMRCA ? what about a twin-engined Tejas
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
2kn more than Gripen-NG
Not Gripen NG, Gripen Demo and this engine is the F-414G.

NG is expected to have an uprated EDE or the EPE. Btw, NG name is gone today, they changed it to Gripen E/F.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
Last edited by a moderator:

Austin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
852
Likes
363
So it seems the F414G has a thrust of 98kn which is similar to 414S6 for Mk2 ......so indentical thrust for both.

Sea Gripen was a canard , although integrating TVC with Aircraft FBW would need its own Flight testing time , so far only US has demonstrated it with F-22 and Russia with Su/Mig , Mig has 3D TVC.

IF TVC is an advantage for Carrier Ops then they can integrate it on Mig-29K since Klimov has already tested a 3D TVC on Mig-29OVT.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
Maybe it is an advantage only for Gripen. No idea if the same holds true for LCA or even Mig-29K. It doesn't look like the Mig-29K really needs it.

Anyway, the US tested TVC on experimentals like F-15 ACTIVE, F-18 HARV and F-16 VISTA apart from some others. The Russian work on Mig-29 was also on an experimental called Mig-29 OVT. Does not mean it can be implemented on an existing aircraft without major changes.

Whether or not the LCA is to benefit from TVC, I am not sure if the N-Mk2 will be designed with one in mind.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017


Btw, the first engine pic with the black nozzle is actually the MATV for GE F-110 that was on the F-16 VISTA.

Looks like Saab did not do its homework before making the presentation.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,763
Country flag
Which Grippen version fighter gets what version of GE-414-EPE is not the point. The moot point is why is IAF not asking for 120 kn GE-414-EPE version with full 120 kn for tejas mk-2,

tejas mk-2 can complete 70 percent of the flight tests with GE-414-IN S 6 engine (which is a stage 6 version excactly like EPE, so it will have a normal 108 KN engine thrust is my guess).

And even if it take 4 or 5 years for GE-414-EPE to be certified for 120 Kn , there is no harm in it. IF IAF and indian Navy give an assured order of at least 250 tejas mk-2 version , then considering 3 engine changes in the lit time of a single fighter , it is a guarantee of close to 700 GE-414-EPE 120 Kn engine from IAF itself. Not to speak of the extra number from huge potential exports. it is not for nothing the SAAB is sinking money into Grippen E/F.

If IAF asks for tejas mk-2 with 120 KN EPE then Grippen -Ng or E/F has no choice but to order the same 120 Kn EPE version for it's fighters. Because both the fighters are going to face each other in the replacement market for thousands of Mirages, F-16s and Migs.

The rationing of 40 mk-1 orders and 88 mk-2 orders from IAF will be a death knell for the export prospect of IAF Tejas mk-2 with 120 KN engine.it is the same tactic adopted by Indian army for restraining the ARJUN tank as forever R&D project.GE needs a higher order from Tejas mk-2 for GE-414-EPE 120 kn version certification to go for the full certification process more than from Grippen E/F.

WHY?

Unlike grippen Tejas mk-2 has the surefire potential of a big home airforce order from IAF. By adopting chaltal hai attitude on this EPE engine front and spending 40 million dollar each on old Mirage updates and billions more on MIG-29 and Jag updates IAf is surely hobbling the tejas mk-2's potential to emerge as one of the most powerful 4.5th gen fighters for the price it commands.

Ia IAF sees merit in spending a few billions on mirages and Jags which will have just two decades of service life with half the combat potential of Tejas mk-2, what is wrong in spending a few extra billions for buying EPE-120 Kn version for tejas mk-2.

Instead of doing this IAF is poking it's nose into the negotiations between SNECMAA and GTRE saying the proposed K-10 will be too underpowered for tejas mk-2. Then why not IAF articulate it's view strongly advocating for the much much more powerful GE-414-EPE -120 KN version that will have the same form fit as Ge-414-IN S 6?

Only stony silence.

The case to support the indigenous LCA programme , with strong numbers is understood by Ashok Parthasarathi and Raman Puri in the following article , but sadly not by the IAF.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/09/stories/2008030955051000.htm

As for network-centric capability, which intrinsically needs indigenous systems for secrecy, security and inter-operability, it is superior in the LCA compared to any aircraft in the IAF's inventory.

So it is a fallacy to think that we can continue the importing spree and still have such network-centric capability.

As recently as in 2005, the IAF's requirement for 126 new aircraft was only for an upgraded Mirage 2000. At Rs.120 crore to Rs.140 crore a plane, compared to at least double that amount for any of the aircraft types now bidding for the 126 MRCA, is not the LCA a highly cost-effective fighter for volume induction into the IAF?

As for development costs, the LCA has remained well within the sanctioned $1.2 billion — which is about the lowest anywhere. Time overrun in the strict sense is only by a year or two, despite the sanctions. A first-of-type aircraft of this degree of complexity has not been developed anywhere in the West or in Russia in less than two to three decades.

The F16 series that was inducted into the U.S. Air Force in 1975 is today at Mark 60. That is how aircraft of this level of complexity are improved after induction. That this imperative applies even more to the LCA has to be recognised.


It is for the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister to ensure that this effort is not belittled or scuttled, and that the LCA programme is given all-out support — as successive Prime Ministers have ensured for our atomic energy and space programmes.
(Ashok Parthasarathi was Science Adviser to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. Vice- Admiral (retired) Raman Puri was Chief of Integrated Defence Staff to the Chairman, Committee of Service Chiefs, remaining closely involved with the inter-service weapons acquisition process from October 2003 to February 2006).
 
Last edited:

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
LCA wasn't designed for the carrier from the get-go.

I don't really know why the Navy was suddenly interested in the carrier. As a conversion unit or LIFT, Mk1 is more than enough for the job and that's what it will be used for. I don't really get the point of Mk2 when Mig-29Ks were ordered in sufficient numbers for the two carriers. Any opinions here?

IMHO, if there are weight increases in LCA Mk2, then the Navy will simply reject the aircraft.
Despite being a staunch supporter i believe game is all for developing Know How for the purpose of developing future carrier based warbird. That said it is still too early to reject LCA MK-2 as fleet air defense fighter.
 

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
I know and I support that idea too. We should have gone after a larger fighter ever since the failure of Mk1. The overall combat capability would have been far better than what's even on the MK2. If it is meant to be better than Gripen NG, that's even better. If it is just short of F-16 Block 60, even that would have been a great goal. The requirement for Rafale and AMCA would have vanished if we included iterative modifications of this LCA-NG.

However my question is how relevant will it be when our enemies have 5th gen fighters in their arsenal? Since LCA-NG would still be a "previous generation" aircraft regardless of the advancement in other aspects like avionics. The problem is we may end up inducting a LCA - NG when our rivals would be inducting J-20/J-31 type of aircraft. If both aircraft have superior capabilities compared to J-11/J-10, then how relevant will LCA be in such a situation?
This is the reason they did not went for the fully new Tejas. It is about fitting LCA into last possible space between 4th generation and 5th generation and also climbing to AMCA with ladder not jump lift.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017
Despite being a staunch supporter i believe game is all for developing Know How for the purpose of developing future carrier based warbird. That said it is still too early to reject LCA MK-2 as fleet air defense fighter.
I think you missed Decklander's post where he said LCA is worthless for carrier aviation.

This is the reason they did not went for the fully new Tejas. It is about fitting LCA into last possible space between 4th generation and 5th generation and also climbing to AMCA with ladder not jump lift.
The Tejas-NG would be something like the J-10/F-16 B52, it would still have fit into the 4th-5th bracket.

Since the time of IOC-1 I had been supporting the induction of a larger fighter than this "world's smallest fighter" nonsense.

If we keep "climbing" without jumping when others are jumping, then where do you think we will be left at. Think logically. HAL is doing the climbing bit while ADA has always focussed on jumping. HAL worked on all generations of aircraft since the very beginning. Currently they are working on a 4th gen MKI while moving to a 5th gen FGFA. ADA progressed from nothing to a 3rd-4th gen LCA Mk1 and are progressing to a 4.5th gen LCA Mk2.

Making the jump from a 4th gen to a 6th gen is the next logical step for ADA considering the timeframe (2030). Like I said previously in one of the threads. A 6th gen aircraft is really a 5th gen aircraft without a pilot. Avionics go obsolete every 7 years. So the real difference between AMCA 5th gen and AMCA 6th gen is merely avionics. ADA can take the time between now and 2030 to build up on the avionics and make it 6th gen level. Fact is the Chinese will already be doing something similar in a decade. The Americans plan on inducting their first 6th gen aircraft for the Navy in 2030. They are already making plans for a F-22 replacement between 2030-40. It makes sense for us to keep up, even if our aircraft ends up being less sophisticated and comes in during 2035 rather than being a "generation" behind.
 

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
I think you missed Decklander's post where he said LCA is worthless for carrier aviation.
I have also head what TP Jyodeep Maolankar has to say, would you like to know that as well?



The Tejas-NG would be something like the J-10/F-16 B52, it would still have fit into the 4th-5th bracket.

Since the time of IOC-1 I had been supporting the induction of a larger fighter than this "world's smallest fighter" nonsense.

If we keep "climbing" without jumping when others are jumping, then where do you think we will be left at. Think logically. HAL is doing the climbing bit while ADA has always focussed on jumping. HAL worked on all generations of aircraft since the very beginning. Currently they are working on a 4th gen MKI while moving to a 5th gen FGFA. ADA progressed from nothing to a 3rd-4th gen LCA Mk1 and are progressing to a 4.5th gen LCA Mk2.

Making the jump from a 4th gen to a 6th gen is the next logical step for ADA considering the timeframe (2030). Like I said previously in one of the threads. A 6th gen aircraft is really a 5th gen aircraft without a pilot. Avionics go obsolete every 7 years. So the real difference between AMCA 5th gen and AMCA 6th gen is merely avionics. ADA can take the time between now and 2030 to build up on the avionics and make it 6th gen level. Fact is the Chinese will already be doing something similar in a decade. The Americans plan on inducting their first 6th gen aircraft for the Navy in 2030. They are already making plans for a F-22 replacement between 2030-40. It makes sense for us to keep up, even if our aircraft ends up being less sophisticated and comes in during 2035 rather than being a "generation" behind.
What is Sixth Generation Fighter?

Seems like people are eating too much into JSF looser Boeing had to feed about.
 

p2prada

Senior Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
10,234
Likes
4,017

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top