ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Kay]

Costs will go down with more orders - hope GOI can ignore foreign propaganda.

 

[Prashant12]

Tejas fighter aircraft starts operations

India's indigenously built Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas', the smallest and lightest Multi-Role Supersonic Fighter Aircraft in its class, commenced operations from the Sulur Air Force Station in Tamil Nadu today, two years after its induction into the Indian Air Force, an official release said.

The aircraft, part of the 'Flying Daggers' of the 45 Squadron, was formally operationalised at a ceremony attended by Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief (Southern Air Command) RKS Bhadauria.

Designed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the single-engine, tailless aircraft would cater to the diverse needs of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Navy.

The Southern Air Command based in Kerala capital Tiruvananthapuram has been entrused with the responsibility of integrating the fighter aircraft, equipped with a satellite aided Inertial Navigation System, in the Air Force's Concept of Operations.

The aircraft has a digital computer based attack system and autopilot mode. It can fire Air to Air Missiles, carry bombs and Precision Guided ammunition.

The 'No 45 Squadron' has been involved in training aircrew and would now undertake operations and maintenance of the aircraft under Group Captain S Dhankhar, the release said.

With the deployment of Tejas, the 'Flying Daggers' would take up wartime role towards safeguarding national skies, it said.

https://www.business-standard.com/a...ircraft-starts-operations-118070201024_1.html

 

[HariPrasad-1]

The facilities that IAF have created at Sular are amazing, shows they are committed to the LCA, I just wish that they weren’t so “spoilt”, should’ve ordered 60-80 LCA Mk.1 from
The outset then asked for 83 MK.1A, his would keep production ticking over in the interim.


Production is a real concern now, HAL were meant to be churning out 1/month but after the highs of March (delivered) not a single new SP has flown since then?! What is their excuse? This is utterly unacceptable, 3 months have gone by now with no new SPs, unless HAL stagger deliveries and we see a few months down the line with 2-3 SPs churned out.

Aside from that, IAF now has their baby home, good things are expected now, this is truly history in the making.

Still Mk1+ offers a great scope of improvement. You can easily add couple of hundreds of KG of fule and reduce weight by some 300 to 400 KG and improve aerodynamics by 6 to 8%. This should make Mk1+ a very nice plane which should easily defeat Pakistan's F 16 and china's J10. I do not count JF 17.

 

[ersakthivel]

F16s, sukhoi 30s are almost at the end of their production life. IAF is not interested in buying any more sukhois.

It is stupid to compare the production costs of these fighters with Tejas mk1a.

Because development costs of sukhois,f 16s were recouped over 1000s of planes in myraid variety for three decades.

But IAF instead of straightaway ordering 80 odd mk1a ,which could easily be upgraded to mk1A in mid life upgrade,

Has burdened HAL & WITH more development costs for just 80 odd mk1As.

Thereby delaying the development of mk2 also.

Now where will HAL recoup it's development costs for just 80 odd mk1As?
Certainly not from chairman"s pocket.

ASEA, moving digital map generator all could hv waited for mk2.

Since IAF is flying so many museum pieces in it's inventory,

No damage would HV been done by straight away ordering 100 mk1s

&

Let the get 414 equipped mk2 to take all the development costs.

this short production run of mk1As will only lead to acrimonious cost negotiation & delays in mk2 development.

Result import lobby is going to jump in saying ,let's by the venerable f16, mig35, which are, "versatile ".


Who is going to tell the lay public that cutting edge low RCS ,HMDS visually cued high off bore WVR Missli equipped mk1does HV it's own inherent sterngths & strength& niche?

Certainly not the Dumbo's at IE.

Even now it's is a stupid squabble .

Because most of mk1a upgraded were slated for mk2.

So the increase in mk1a price will lead to decrease in mk2 development costs & price, unless of course IAF adds some more bells & Whistles for mk2!!!

 

[Kshithij]

F16s, sukhoi 30s are almost at the end of their production life. IAF is not interested in buying any more sukhois.

It is stupid to compare the production costs of these fighters with Tejas mk1a.

Because development costs of sukhois,f 16s were recouped over 1000s of planes in myraid variety for three decades.

But IAF instead of straightaway ordering 80 odd mk1a ,which could easily be upgraded to mk1A in mid life upgrade,

Has burdened HAL & WITH more development costs for just 80 odd mk1As.

Thereby delaying the development of mk2 also.

Now where will HAL recoup it's development costs for just 80 odd mk1As?
Certainly not from chairman"s pocket.

ASEA, moving digital map generator all could hv waited for mk2.

Since IAF is flying so many museum pieces in it's inventory,

No damage would HV been done by straight away ordering 100 mk1s

&

Let the get 414 equipped mk2 to take all the development costs.

this short production run of mk1As will only lead to acrimonious cost negotiation & delays in mk2 development.

Result import lobby is going to jump in saying ,let's by the venerable f16, mig35, which are, "versatile ".


Who is going to tell the lay public that cutting edge low RCS ,HMDS visually cued high off bore WVR Missli equipped mk1does HV it's own inherent sterngths & strength& niche?

Certainly not the Dumbo's at IE.

Even now it's is a stupid squabble .

Because most of mk1a upgraded were slated for mk2.

So the increase in mk1a price will lead to decrease in mk2 development costs & price, unless of course IAF adds some more bells & Whistles for mk2!!!

No matter what development cost, the MK1 should have been made available for 250 crore plus development cost divided among 83 planes. Saying that development cost is 17000 crore and divided amongst 83 planes will result in 210crore per plane is absurd. Why would development of Mk1A cost 17000 crores?

 

[ersakthivel]

No matter what development cost, the MK1 should have been made available for 250 crore plus development cost divided among 83 planes. Saying that development cost is 17000 crore and divided amongst 83 planes will result in 210crore per plane is absurd. Why would development of Mk1A cost 17000 crores?

List out all the upgrades asked by IAF for mk1A,

Their material cost,
Their integration cost,
Divide it by 83 &

Give us exact break up.

Then let's talk.

Do you know how much french asked for integrating (just plain integration) indian & Russian weapons for juat 63 rafales?

It runs into billions.


Same IAF has no qualms in spending 350 crore per plane for mirage 2000 upgrades, which HV no ASEA, DERBY, PYTHON, no DRFM Based ASEA INtegrated jammer as well.

All these are now in mk1a.

Now compare mk1a cost, capability vs upgraded mirage 2000 cost & capability.

Then let's talk. .

NO IE correspondent raised an eyebrow then.

 

[ersakthivel]

Ordering 100tejas mk1s & 200 Tejas mk2 straight away would hv resulted in development costs spread thin , that's how swedes are going about in gripen development, assured production run, with higher numbers & development by blocks approach.

Result

1.faster production,

2.better Pvt sector involvement(as they see profit visibility) as tier 2 vendor

3.higher investment in bigger production line by HAL , leading to faster production & induction.

4. Higher number of IAF Pilots having top notch proficiency in Tejas operation.

5. Better export visibility.

Faster mk2 development & induction as there is no mk1a work load.


We can easily upgrade 100 Tejas mk1s with ASEA, INtegrated JAmmer etc, etc later in mid life upgrade,it will cost less, because most of the costs would hv been absorbed by mk2 .

Strange why no one at the top of our defense establishment has any idea about how to get economic & faster production of a cutting edge product like Tejas.

Instead another ,"committee" set up to do even more foolish bean counting job,
Which will delay Tejas production & induction even longer.

Somebody has a deadly interest in making an ARJUN out of Tejas.

Tragically that somebody is ensconced at the top of our defence establishment.

 

[Sancho]

The facilities that IAF have created at Sular are amazing, shows they are committed to the LCA, I just wish that they weren’t so “spoilt”, should’ve ordered 60-80 LCA Mk.1 from

If you buy a new car and the seller promises to deliver it after x months, in your favourite color and with the extras you wanted, but then fails to keep his promises on every level, would you be happy about it? Would you still take the car or move on to another one?

IAF is not the problem for Tejas, in fact IAF needs to be hailed to keep being so committed after all the delays and issues with the fighter.

The only issue for more orders were and still are development related, be it delays in development and certification, or underperformance of the fighter.

 

[Sancho]

Now compare mk1a cost, capability vs upgraded mirage 2000 cost & capability.

LCA MK1A doesn't get near the capability and the performance of the upgraded M2k. That's why it will be the prime option for IAFs nuclear role and LCA struggles to be a basic air defence fighter.

Without higher thrust engine, MK1A can't compete with the M2K in flight performance
Without additional hardpoints, the MK1A can't carry similar number of AAMs as the M2K
Without a centerline station that supports larger weapons, the MK1A can't carry a SPICE 2000 or Crystal Maze to long distances
Without integrated EW and enough AAMs, the MK1A in strike config is much more vulnerable than the M2K.

That leaves the AESA radar technology, as the only advantage, which however doesn't make the fighter better in general, or do you think that an upgraded Jag is better than the M2K as well?

 

[Sancho]

Somebody has a deadly interest in making an ARJUN out of Tejas.

Well guess who is developing both of them and is responsible for poor project management, unrealistic capability and time line promises?

Both suffer from overweight and size issues.
Both can't be used to the operational needs of the forces
Both require high amounts of foreign parts, to upgrade them to a usable levels.

 

[Sancho]

Tejas begins the sky party at AFS Sulur

 

[patriots]

2 aircraft s within this month.....,.


source...ir. brf...........................................

 

[Kharavela]

If you buy a new car and the seller promises to deliver it after x months, in your favourite color and with the extras you wanted, but then fails to keep his promises on every level, would you be happy about it? Would you still take the car or move on to another one?

Anybody can gues your level of understanding when you compare Tejas with Car. :blah:

IAF is not the problem for Tejas, in fact IAF needs to be hailed to keep being so committed after all the delays and issues with the fighter

You mean to say, instead of IAF, PAF or PLAAF should have committed to Tejas ?

The only issue for more orders were and still are development related, be it delays in development and certification, or underperformance of the fighter.

Lest you forget, when Jaguar, Mirage & Su-30 were inducted in IAF, they were not even integrated with their weapons, forget about battle-worthiness.

 

[ersakthivel]

LCA MK1A doesn't get near the capability and the performance of the upgraded M2k. That's why it will be the prime option for IAFs nuclear role and LCA struggles to be a basic air defence fighter.

Without higher thrust engine, MK1A can't compete with the M2K in flight performance
Without additional hardpoints, the MK1A can't carry similar number of AAMs as the M2K
Without a centerline station that supports larger weapons, the MK1A can't carry a SPICE 2000 or Crystal Maze to long distances
Without integrated EW and enough AAMs, the MK1A in strike config is much more vulnerable than the M2K.

That leaves the AESA radar technology, as the only advantage, which however doesn't make the fighter better in general, or do you think that an upgraded Jag is better than the M2K as well?

Mirage was the sole N delivery option when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

Mk1 itself has

1.superior Thrust to weight ratio,

2.Better instantaneous turn rate &, sustained turn rate,

3.lower RCS,

4.longer range BVRM

than upgraded mirage 2000.

MK1 HAS HMDS Enabled high offbore WVR(no escape) option like R73E & &,python not found in upgraded mirage 2000(50million dollar per plane).

Centerline fuel tank is already carried by Mk1 in test flights.

In all flight specs plain Mk1 beats upgraded mirage

 

[ersakthivel]

Upgraded mirage has the same old engine.

Plain Mk1 can carry meaningful loads while operating from high altitude Himalayan airfields like leh due to higher TWR & LOWER WING LOADING.


Multi rack options will let Mk1 carry meaning full missile load, while carrying decent strike package.

 

[ersakthivel]

Mind it I am not comparing ASEA MK1A to upgraded mirage 2000.

Iam comparing plain FOC TEJAS MK1 TO upgraded mirage 2000

 

[Indibomber]

Good discussion, what i don't understand why does IAF keep bashing HAL when IAF keeps changing its goal posts. Sad that our "Experts" keep crying about costs and slow technology.
I understand that there are two way to reach a goal
1) QuickWins:- Buy foreign aircraft but TOT is a must which what MOD/GOI is doing.
2) LongTerm Stratergy:- Develop own stuff with our on IP and technologies which will take time, will have issues and in the long run we will not have to look at videshi companies.

 

[Pulkit]

Just wanted to understand the status of FOC.
It was said that it will be attained in june this year but no update so far on the issue.

Anyone has any idea what is lagging and when will it attain FOC?

 

[patriots]

Just wanted to understand the status of FOC.
It was said that it will be attained in june this year but no update so far on the issue.

Anyone has any idea what is lagging and when will it attain FOC?

ifr and gun trial . are the ...ability.... tejas to have for foc....

and ifr trial is going on. . .but actual fluid transfer has not taken place in flight ....till now ...only dry contact done....

 

[abingdonboy]

Good discussion, what i don't understand why does IAF keep bashing HAL when IAF keeps changing its goal posts. Sad that our "Experts" keep crying about costs and slow technology.
I understand that there are two way to reach a goal
1) QuickWins:- Buy foreign aircraft but TOT is a must which what MOD/GOI is doing.
2) LongTerm Stratergy:- Develop own stuff with our on IP and technologies which will take time, will have issues and in the long run we will not have to look at videshi companies.

Sadly this is the thinking of the majority of the defence brass, IN is an exception in SOME cases. They are so aclimitised to importing everything and basing their requirements on brochures given to them by foreign OEMs.

There is VERY little interaction at an institutional level between the services and DPSUs/DRDO.

I've heard from an industry guy that the sad truth is that when the services send representatives to occasions like DEF EXPO or Air India the very last stand they visit is that of Indian companies/DPSUs/DRDO labs (if they even bother visiting them at all). Conversely, these stands get a lot more visitors from foreign delegations.

For some reason it is lost on the services that a domestic industry is of the most utility to them in the long term.