ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[dude00720]

@Chinmoy - Came across this info. Seemed relevant for Kaveri. High temperature performing Jet engines.
http://diply.com/sciencep/article/jet-engine-performance-breakthrough

 

[Rahul Singh]

This is my first post in this forum so kindly excuse me if I do write anything out of the line.

I think its important for us as nation to invest in Tejas and keep developing it. The first lot of MK1A and the initial version should be inducted quickly. what this will do is to understand the used case scenario and will get feedback from the pilots. Based on which we can keep on improving our jet and also can be used for any future development of any other fighter. Its important that we must get self reliance on building fighter aircraft and keep an ration of 70:30, 70% home grown and 30 % import. I know its wishful thinking but that should be our approach.

Reminded me of my first post ever on any defence forum.

@swordfish this is exactly how things are done worldwide. You take out any program be it Rafale, EFT , Gripen and now F-35 all have entered service with many unproven test points. Their used rushed these systems into service with the hope of meeting all requirements in time and improve the platform as a whole with user feedbacks. Early induction also means an early beginning of training and evolution of maintenance methodologies as well as timely integration and operationalization of fighter into service. It also helps OEM to evolve and better it production methodologies. Rafale, EFT and Gripen has seen exactly that. F-35 will eventually end up doing exactly just that. Hell even Chinese F-20 produced in Pakistan as JF-17 has also seen the exact same route. They have completed production of two blocks and not even single jet is with HMS or LDP. Ironically Tejas which is criticised so much entered service with both HMS and LDP+LGB from day 1. Funny when EFT entered service it did not have any LGB integrated. And SU-30MKI took as much as a whole decade to get fully operational with IAF and it was only at SU-30MKI-MK-3 stage that they reached their desired operational capability. That's good six years after SU-30MKI entered service with IAF in 2004 as SU-30MKI-MK-1. Worst is the story of Jaguar induction and even Mirage-2000 has a story. Astonishingly when it comes to indigenous products IAF show an all different attitude and asks for a fully developed system from day 1. I bet my life in saying if DM had not put his weight the Tejas would not have been in service yet.

 

[Rahul Singh]

For IAF it was MK1A variant of Tejas that made them to accept the fighter in substantial number. For Navy I think DM will come out with a MK3 or MK2A formula, we can guess it to have near 5th generation qualities. Wishful thinking

By (proposed) design and sensor plus weapon suit NLCA MK-2 is already as much as or more advanced than Gripen E. So what DM can propose beyond it other than N-AMCA is something i can not imagine. And if someone is thinking about a twin engine version of NLCA then better go for an N-AMCA. Development of both will take more or less same time with latter being a generation ahead.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The second phase will see actual contact with the fuel transferring systems of tanker with the in-flight refuelling probe of LCA-Tejas aircraft but no fuel transfer will actually take place , tests will be repeated till it achieves 2-5 minutes in contact with tanker which is actual fuel transfer time usually taken by tanker to pump fuel into a fighter jet. Wet runs trials will be followed after completion of Dry run trials where actual fuel transfer will take place which may happen only in next year .

http://idrw.org/in-flight-refuelling-probe-testing-to-begin-soon-on-lca-tejas/

And we only have LSP-8 for the entire range of testing for IFR! This is where the real problem lies. In absence of adequate funding --because major portion of budget is always kept safe for buying fancy equipment from abroad all in name of immediate requirements-- the program with left with just one test platform without giving consideration to the fact that amount of delay which may occur because of various technical reasons completely unrelated to IFR probe, plumbing and fuel management.

Similarly, the entire N-LCA program is dependent on just two prototypes. Worst is the fact that even NLCA MK-2 program is supposed to be completed with NP-4 and NP-5 only, that despite the fact that MK-2 is almost a new design as MIrage-2000-9 is to Mirage-V. CNS must be disgusted when he had spoken.

 

[wuzetian]

Look at the justification a former IAF officer gives http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/Airing-out-a-decision/article16769093.ece?homepage=true

 

[dude00720]

Look at the justification a former IAF officer gives http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/Airing-out-a-decision/article16769093.ece?homepage=true

I dont want to speak out against a decorated general. But, Factual reality seems that, while, Navy experts is making news by accidents in operating environments, they are busy , patting their own back on how qualified they are to reject a programme based on their expertise.

Sounds seriously contradictory here.

 

[Defcon 1]

I dont want to speak out against a decorated general. But, Factual reality seems that, while, Navy experts is making news by accidents in operating environments, they are busy , patting their own back on how qualified they are to reject a programme based on their expertise.

Sounds seriously contradictory here.

So, because navy's ships went through a few accidents someone else should be defining what the navy requires in a carrier capable jet instead of navy themselves? Who should that be and what are their qualifications to accept/reject NLCA?

 

[dude00720]

So, because navy's ships went through a few accidents someone else should be defining what the navy requires in a carrier capable jet instead of navy themselves? Who should that be and what are their qualifications to accept/reject NLCA?

Qualifications are determined by transparency. Blanket statements which talk about experts are not good enough. How about an open paper which explains exactly what is wrong?

And it is not a few accidents. This has been happening since quite sometime. Why are the same experts not able to fix these issues? Surely, these geniuses should be able to predict accidents.

And quite simply, the statements in that article is like saying, if I start a new train between Bombay and Delhi, it has to be a Bullet train, current trains are not good enough.

 

[Defcon 1]

Qualifications are determined by transparency. Blanket statements which talk about experts are not good enough. How about an open paper which explains exactly what is wrong?

Navy is not answerable to the ordinary citizens of India and they don't need to explain anything to the public in a white paper. Navy answers to MOD. Their rejection will go to the MOD and only MOD can finally reject NLCA and search for an alternative fighter, which is elected by people of the country. Its MOD's responsibility to ask navy the reason for its rejection and take the correct decision thereafter. No defence force in the world releases sensitive information in a white paper.
Btw, you didn't answer my question, who is qualified to determine navy's requirements if not navy itself?

And it is not a few accidents. This has been happening since quite sometime. Why are the same experts not able to fix these issues? Surely, these geniuses should be able to predict accidents.

So what? The expertise of these experts is not brought into question when they select a indigenous ship over a foreign, so why should it be brought into question if they select a foreign fighter over an indigenous one?

And quite simply, the statements in that article is like saying, if I start a new train between Bombay and Delhi, it has to be a Bullet train, current trains are not good enough.

Wrong analogy. The CNS clearly said that NLCA is too far away and navy needs a carrier fighter soon. There is nothing wrong in this since it is known that INS Vikrant will be commissioned by 2018-2020. Earlier timelines of DRDO projected Mk2 availability before 2020. In fact, IAF had planned to induct 4 squadrons of Mk2 by 2022. If ADA is incapable of delivering on time, why should navy or IAF or anyone else should suffer for it?

 

[dude00720]

Navy is not answerable to the ordinary citizens of India and they don't need to explain anything to the public in a white paper. Their rejection will go to the MOD and only MOD can finally reject NLCA and search for an alternative fighter, which is elected by people of the country. Its MOD's responsibility to ask navy the reason for its rejection and take the correct decision thereafter. No defence force in the world releases sensitive information in a white paper.

The problem here is, playing hookie with transparency. If someone is smart enough, data can be provided without releasing sensitive info. This press release is basically a way to pressurise the Govt to back off. Since, there are enough foreign lobbies which are working in the backdoor.

And you're right. The current Govt will decide. Since, they have a technocrat on top who cant be fooled unlike previous dispensations. As you mentioned, Final decision is with Govt.

 

[Defcon 1]

This press release is basically a way to pressurise the Govt to back off. Since, there are enough foreign lobbies which are working in the backdoor.

There is no attempt to pressurise government. This is simply your own biasedness against anyone who says anything against the LCA/NLCA. If I ask you one single proof of this pressurization/foreign lobbies you will be able to provide nothing, zero, null, nada. Few years back IAF said they plan to induct 6 squadrons of LCA by 2022. Navy said they want NLCA instead of F35C. Then everyone was going gaga on them. Of course after that, ADA delayed the timelines of Mk2 from 2018 to 2025, and now Navy is cutting orders for Mk2, so suddenly navy is the villain.

 

[Chinmoy]

@Chinmoy - Came across this info. Seemed relevant for Kaveri. High temperature performing Jet engines.
http://diply.com/sciencep/article/jet-engine-performance-breakthrough

Its relevant for every single jet engine. But the problem for us is, we have not yet mastered the SCB technology for Kaveri.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I don't want to criticise navy for its decision to dump N-LCA (though i am not sure if CNS meant only MK-1 or MK-2 as well). But i can't help myself from wondering about the fact that Navy has not only dumped N-LCA but also Mig-29K.

Astonishingly, Navy choose to dump Mig-29K/KUB not only after buying a compulsory order (mandated by Russians as a condition for selling retrofitted Admiral Gorshkov for free and charging only for refit) but also a repeat order!

The repeat order of 24 or so Mig-29K/KUBs ,needless to say, gave Russians enough money and time to develop their own version of Mig-29K/KUB for Admiral Kuznetsov. In other words, Navy used tax payers money beyond needed to invest in the future of Russian naval aviation by buying a compromised fighter (if not, why dump Migs now?) hence giving Russians enough time for developing required expertise for advancing into future which might be Naval PAK-FA. However somehow Navy finds it unnecessary to invest in future of Naval Aviation in India by buying a compromised fighter and giving Indian industry enough time, investment and work to develop required expertise for marching into future which was supposed to be called N-AMCA.

So now being a common tax payer do i have a right to seek answers from Navy? Since Navy is not directly answerable to public i don't have that right. But can i criticise Navy for alleged misuse of tax payer's money? The answer is, yes i can? Can i request/pressurise (or choose your own word) MoD for an explanation? The answer is yes.

 

[tejas warrior]

Isn't it Beautiful !!

Source: LCA Tejas-LCA@Facebook.

 

[Chinmoy]

I don't want to criticise navy for its decision to dump N-LCA (though i am not sure if CNS meant only MK-1 or MK-2 as well). But i can't help myself from wondering about the fact that Navy has not only dumped N-LCA but also Mig-29K.

Astonishingly, Navy choose to dump Mig-29K/KUB not only after buying a compulsory order (mandated by Russians as a condition for selling retrofitted Admiral Gorshkov for free and charging only for refit) but also a repeat order!

The repeat order of 24 or so Mig-29K/KUBs ,needless to say, gave Russians enough money and time to develop their own version of Mig-29K/KUB for Admiral Kuznetsov. In other words, Navy used tax payers money beyond needed to invest in the future of Russian naval aviation by buying a compromised fighter (if not, why dump Migs now?) hence giving Russians enough time for developing required expertise for advancing into future which might be Naval PAK-FA. However somehow Navy finds it unnecessary to invest in future of Naval Aviation in India by buying a compromised fighter and giving Indian industry enough time, investment and work to develop required expertise for marching into future which was supposed to be called N-AMCA.

So now being a common tax payer do i have a right to seek answers from Navy? Since Navy is not directly answerable to public i don't have that right. But can i criticise Navy for alleged misuse of tax payer's money? The answer is, yes i can? Can i request/pressurise (or choose your own word) MoD for an explanation? The answer is yes.

This what is confusing. Whatever reasons he have cited is true in their very context, but these things apart from the fact of strengthened undercarriage, is the problem of every naval aircraft. TWR could be overcome by 414 easily.
I really do think that he was pointing towards current Mk1 version and what he really means is that NLCA in current form is not suitable for carriers.
But again unlike our esteemed media houses, I would not like to give words in CNC's mouth.

 

[wuzetian]

Maybe he wants govt to speed up funding for NCLA Mk2

 

[tejas warrior]

Interesting tweets, friends - your thoughts please.

Why is #Tejas MKII not happening?
Simple reason!
#GE #F414 jet for single-engine application aint ready.

 

[Chinmoy]

Interesting tweets, friends - your thoughts please.

Why is #Tejas MKII not happening?
Simple reason!
#GE #F414 jet for single-engine application aint ready.

View attachment 12234

Does this tweet is suggesting that we should finish off the technical evaluation of Kaveri within 6 months?
Do the poster know at what stage Kaveri is and what exactly needs to be done in it? GE-F414 was anyway scheduled to come. Whether it comes after 12 month or 6, it would come.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I don't buy it. F-414 is being used in Gripen E in a single engine configuration. So don't say you don't have an engine begin the testing. However, it might be true that F-414 IN S6 might not be ready yet. But why wait for it and not start testing with the same version of the engine which Gripen E is using?

 

[tejas warrior]

I don't buy it. F-414 is being used in Gripen E in a single engine configuration. So don't say you don't have an engine begin the testing. However, it might be true that F-414 IN S6 might not be ready yet. But why wait for it and not start testing with the same version of the engine which Gripen E is using?

Then why we haven't received F414 ?

Our F414 configuration might be different of Gripen's.

Production for single engine F414 will start only in 2017.