ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

HAL eyes to increase production rate of LCA Tejas from 8 to 24 in three years

"We are very confident that Tejas Mark II will be a big leap forward to fulfil the single engine fighter requirement of the forces," Defense Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said Monday, adding the government was also considering export potential of the aircraft.
The HAL is investing Rs 1,300 crore (USD 199 million) to augment the existing infrastructure so that production of Tejas can be increased to 24 aircraft per year by 2021. (Defence World)
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamINDRA/photos/?ref=page_internal

There is a huge potential for export. Everyone going for Mig-21 replacement can't afford Gripen C/D. Even so once at FOC Tejas MK-1 won't be any less than its equivalent. So don't just consider. Prepare two Tejas from test line exclusively for air shows and send them to every major event where India is participating. Those two should be equipped with IFR. Also, send NP-1 --as a dual seat version of Tejas-- along with these two to keep it on static display.

Navy is no longer supporting NLCA anyway, so why waste resources keeping NP-1 & 2 stagnant in hangers? Just use them for PR missions. At least NP-1 can be passed as Tejas-T for time being till Tejas-T is freed from testing. Once Tejas-T gets certified replace NP-1 with one the Tejas-T prototype.

But before anything. First, establish an Export promotion and handling bureau on the line of ROSOBORONEXPORT and NORINCO. Without preparing a collective catalogue and aggressive promotions Indian defence export will remain segregated and won't succeed at large scale.

 

[Kshithij]

There is a huge potential for export. Everyone going for Mig-21 replacement can't afford Gripen C/D. Even so once at FOC Tejas MK-1 won't be any less than its equivalent. So don't just consider. Prepare two Tejas from test line exclusively for air shows and send them to every major event where India is participating. Those two should be equipped with IFR. Also, send NP-1 --as a dual seat version of Tejas-- along with these two to keep it on static display.

Navy is no longer supporting NLCA anyway, so why waste resources keeping NP-1 & 2 stagnant in hangers? Just use them for PR missions. At least NP-1 can be passed as Tejas-T for time being till Tejas-T is freed from testing. Once Tejas-T gets certified replace NP-1 with one the Tejas-T prototype.

But before anything. First, establish an Export promotion and handling bureau on the line of ROSOBORONEXPORT and NORINCO. Without preparing a collective catalogue and aggressive promotions Indian defence export will remain segregated and won't succeed at large scale.

Please understand that very few countries like to buy a plane with imported engine. Gripen also has very few buyers for the same reason. SAAB had to offer loans, offsets to countries to get Gripen deals. The USA engine makes the problem worse as USA is known to put sanctions on military sales every now and then

 

[Rahul Singh]

Please understand that very few countries like to buy a plane with imported engine. Gripen also has very few buyers for the same reason. SAAB had to offer loans, offsets to countries to get Gripen deals. The USA engine makes the problem worse as USA is known to put sanctions on military sales every now and then

Rafale has 3 customers. EF 2000 has 5 customers outside members. Gripen has 4+1(Brazil). What makes you think Gripen is any less successful than Rafale and EF 2000 is securing orders from other countries?

Even Bandar is securing orders with a Russian engine.

When the time comes Tejas will have Keveri (Safaranized or not). But for the time being Tejas with F-404 is well placed to export to hand full of nations. South America, Africa, ASEAN are the places where there is huge potential.

I won't be surprised if GoI offers Tejas MK-1A through line-of-credit to Vietnam as a replacement for S-22s soon enough. At least US won't have any problems here given their warming defence relations with Hanoi. I don't think there is any problem selling to Sri Lanka also. If Philippines chooses to supplement it F/A-50 fleet then there is Tejas.

Still, I don't get your obsession with having an indigenous engine.

 

[Shashwat]

Please del.

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[Rahul Singh]

What people don't seem to catch is the amount of load it is carrying in that pic,- that's 4-tonne bomb, 1.6-tonne fuel, 0.2 tonne R73, 0.3 tonn EO pod + internal fuel.

Load of the bombs is in pounds. So 4x 1000 lb in Kgs is ~1900kg.

Still, the overall payload including the weight of bomb racks and launch rails is in excess of 4000 kgs.

Tejas' overall payload capacity is 5.3 t (of course with varying internal fuel volume).

http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=20

 

[Kshithij]

Rafale has 3 customers. EF 2000 has 5 customers outside members. Gripen has 4+1(Brazil). What makes you think Gripen is any less successful than Rafale and EF 2000 is securing orders from other countries?

Even Bandar is securing orders with a Russian engine.

When the time comes Tejas will have Keveri (Safaranized or not). But for the time being Tejas with F-404 is well placed to export to hand full of nations. South America, Africa, ASEAN are the places where there is huge potential.

I won't be surprised if GoI offers Tejas MK-1A through line-of-credit to Vietnam as a replacement for S-22s soon enough. At least US won't have any problems here given their warming defence relations with Hanoi. I don't think there is any problem selling to Sri Lanka also. If Philippines chooses to supplement it F/A-50 fleet then there is Tejas.

Still, I don't get your obsession with having an indigenous engine.

Countries with Gripen other than Sweden:

1. South Africa
2. Czech repblic
3. Hungary
4. Brazil

South Africa bought Gripen for kickbacks and has just 2 dozen of them. It was not a major deal and there was no competitive bidding.

Czech bought Gripen as lease, not outright buy. The lease was for 10 years. No other company offered leases The deal was not based out of competitive bidding. Corruption allegation came up for the deal too.

Hungary also got Gripen leased, not purchased. So, it can't be considered as sale. Also, kickback and corruption allegation came up for the same

Brazil bought Gripen as SAAB offered a loan to be repaid over years. This was also a special circumstance.

Can you tell me which of these is a proper sale? I see that Gripen has to go around offering great discounts, finances and indulge in corrupt practices to sell its planes. The most important reason is the lack of engine and radar.

Rafale deals on the other hand are big ticket ones. The deals run in billions and have great customers who buy without bribes.

JF-17 is bought by Pakistan as they are poor and have no other finances. Also, some of the avionic are written in C language and handed over to Pakistan.

 

[Kshithij]

Load of the bombs is in pounds. So 4x 1000 lb in Kgs is ~1900kg.

Still, the overall payload including the weight of bomb racks and launch rails is in excess of 4000 kgs.

Tejas' overall payload capacity is 5.3 t (of course with varying internal fuel volume).

http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=20

Tejas weight empty - 6600kg
Tejas internal fuel - 2400kg
Tejas MToW- 13.5tons.

So, the total payload comes to 4.5tons with pylons. Excluding pylon weight, the payload comes to 3.6-3.7 tons after deducting weight for pylons and adding weight of LGP pod

 

[patriots]

hope foc will be achieved soon......and I wish to see Tejas outside India.....

 

[Rahul Singh]

Tejas weight empty - 6600kg
Tejas internal fuel - 2400kg
Tejas MToW- 13.5tons.

So, the total payload comes to 4.5tons with pylons. Excluding pylon weight, the payload comes to 3.6-3.7 tons after deducting weight for pylons and adding weight of LGP pod

3500 kg is at full load of internal fuel. 5.3t at reduced volume.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Can you tell me which of these is a proper sale? I see that Gripen has to go around offering great discounts, finances and indulge in corrupt practices to sell its planes. The most important reason is the lack of engine and radar.

And how you concluded bold part?

 

[patriots]

Tejas is a good choice for small countries like ...srilanka ,Myanmar ,small European countries and African countries.....
Tejas with Indian missile s and bombs will give us a lots of benefit. .........and with an Indian radar and engine we can export Tejas to any country........

 

[Rahul Singh]

Tejas is a good choice for small countries like ...srilanka ,Myanmar ,small European countries and African countries.....
Tejas with Indian missile s and bombs will give us a lots of benefit. .........and with an Indian radar and engine we can export Tejas to any country........

In any case, we won't be making any big ticket sell. We are too new to play at those level. A total of + 50 will be good enough.

Grabbing an order for replacing 36 SU-22 that Vietnam P Air Force is flying should be our priority. MK-1A should be offered.

 

[Kshithij]

3500 kg is at full load of internal fuel. 5.3t at reduced volume.

I gave a division of load - 6600 empthy + 2400 full fuel + 200kg pod+ 600kg pylons+3.7kg payload. If pylon weight is included, the payload will cross 4tons.

If you have an alternative figures, please provide

And how you concluded bold part?

Because there has been USA pressure on countries to not buy SAAB Gripen. The countries had to succumb as USA was supplying engine and radar component. One example was Norway, which backed out of gripen and even publicly abused Gripen of being worthless:
https://www.thelocal.se/20081210/16252

The political pressure of imported component is immense. The deal between Norway and Sweden was almost a done deal considering that they are culturally very close and even have similar language. They could have same fighter plane with collective defence in mind. But, the rejection of Gripen was inevitable due to US components

 

[Rahul Singh]

I gave a division of load - 6600 empthy + 2400 full fuel + 200kg pod+ 600kg pylons+3.7kg payload. If pylon weight is included, the payload will cross 4tons.

If you have an alternative figures, please provide

I don't understand what you meant by alternative figure.

Payload varies with variation in internal fuel. This is what i had said. Check HAL link for Tejas' payload figures.

http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=20

Because there has been USA pressure on countries to not buy SAAB Gripen. The countries had to succumb as USA was supplying engine and radar component. One example was Norway, which backed out of gripen and even publicly abused Gripen of being worthless:
https://www.thelocal.se/20081210/16252

The political pressure of imported component is immense.

Given our relations with US, i don't think any such problem will be there while exporting Tejas to countries not buying American made aircraft.

Tejas is anyway not going to compete for same space US expects F-35 to fill, for technical reasons alone.

 

[Kshithij]

I don't understand what you meant by alternative figure.

Payload varies with variation in internal fuel. This is what i had said. Check HAL link for Tejas' payload figures.

http://www.hal-india.com/Product_Details.aspx?Mkey=54&lKey=&CKey=20

Can you explain the clean weight of 9.8tons for Tejas? How is the clean weight that high? I want a break-up of weights- which component weighs how much.

Given our relations with US, i don't think any such problem will be there while exporting Tejas to countries not buying American made aircraft.

Tejas is anyway not going to compete for same space US expects F-35 to fill, for technical reasons alone.

Don't speak as if you know what relation exists with USA. I see nothing of substance. So, let us not delve into relying on USA's mercy. I can never be sure of USA and the most important aspect of defence deal is certainty of performance. So, please keep this kind of talks away.

Tejas will compete against any fighter jet. Very few people are as rigid as you want them to be about fighter selections. Many countries don't mind some specification differences. Tejas can compete easily against F16 and in some cases against other planes like F15, F18, F35. Tejas may be small but it is also lot cheaper. So, buying 2 Tejas instead of 1 F35 is also an option.

In any case, USA will not like the customer to have one more option of a fighter jet which can decrease the chances of sale of USA fighter.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Can you explain the clean weight of 9.8tons for Tejas? How is the clean weight that high? I want a break-up of weights- which component weighs how much.

Even clean weight is defined as the manufacturer wants to define.

Ideally, it should include; a Full load of internal fuel, a full load of cannon ammo, refill cartridge of chaff and flares, weight of the pilot with gear and weight of the oxygen refil(in case there is no OBOGS).

I don't know what else HAL includes in Tejas' clean weight figure. Maybe it includes the weight of store racks and rails with the weight of generic pylons. Maybe it has added total weight of heaviest possible pylons with rails and racks in it to give never decreasing combat load figure.

Don't speak as if you know what relation exists with USA. I see nothing of substance. So, let us not delve into relying on USA's mercy. I can never be sure of USA and the most important aspect of defence deal is certainty of performance. So, please keep this kind of talks away.

Indo US relations are already at an unprecedented level. I leave it to that.

Tejas will compete against any fighter jet. Very few people are as rigid as you want them to be about fighter selections. Many countries don't mind some specification differences. Tejas can compete easily against F16 and in some cases against other planes like F15, F18, F35. Tejas may be small but it is also lot cheaper. So, buying 2 Tejas instead of 1 F35 is also an option.

In any case, USA will not like the customer to have one more option of a fighter jet which can decrease the chances of sale of USA fighter.

So Srilankans would buy F-35 or Tejas kind of fighter?

 

[Kshithij]

So Srilankans would buy F-35 or Tejas kind of fighter?

Sri Lanka would prefer MiG29 from Russia or chinese JF17 (with WS13 engine) or F16 than rely on tejas. Sri Lanka also has arms embargo on it from the USA. So, it is unlikely that Lanka will be able to use Tejas

 

[Rahul Singh]

Sri Lanka would prefer MiG29 from Russia or chinese JF17 (with WS13 engine) or F16 than rely on tejas. Sri Lanka also has arms embargo on it from the USA. So, it is unlikely that Lanka will be able to use Tejas

US embargo was lifted in 2016 itself.


U.S. LIFTS ARMS EMBARGO ON SRI LANKA

 

[patriots]

In any case, we won't be making any big ticket sell. We are too new to play at those level. A total of + 50 will be good enough.

Grabbing an order for replacing 36 SU-22 that Vietnam P Air Force is flying should be our priority. MK-1A should be offered.

for export we have to advertise our product.....and political will should be there .....
and if we will able to export then definitely it will be a good achievement...coz last time we have tried with dhruv. but it was unsuccessful.....

and giant s like Boeing....LM .are there ......hope for the best

 

[Rahul Singh]

for export we have to advertise our product.....and political will should be there .....
and if we will able to export then definitely it will be a good achievement...coz last time we have tried with dhruv. but it was unsuccessful.....

and giant s like Boeing....LM .are there ......hope for the best

That's why I said I expect orders around + 50 in total. Considering we secure a deal for replacing Vietnamese SU-22.