ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[patriots]

Tejas ifr
..test in early 2018

..... good news.........

 

[tejas warrior]

Your skepticism is right the pic is photoshoped.
Here is original LSP with IFR probe. The probe starts from little center of the nose cone and then it is angled towards right, which is probably the best HAL could do with such small space to work on.
I don't know how many flight test will it take to start refueling test.

Nope. Picture shared today is original.

It was first shared by Tejas-LCA admin on Facebook.

https://m.facebook.com/tejas.lca/ph...1827.103329156428208/1436116023149508/?type=3

 

[tejas warrior]

When is Tejas FOC ?

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

Now they expect it by mid next year OR end of next year.

 

[Sancho]

Your skepticism is right the pic is photoshoped.

It's real=>

https://defenceupdate.in/hal-begins-integration-mid-air-refueling-probe-lca-tejas/amp/

http://idrw.org/pics-lca-tejas-with-aerial-refueling-probe/

 

[pmaitra]

In Indian context, during Kargil War MIG-21 and Mirage 2000 both took part in CAS, MIG-21 is doing this role since 71 war ..

Neither MiG-21 nor Mirage-2000 are CAS aircraft. Whether they took part in CAS or not is irrelevant.

India can afford a dedicated CAS aircraft. LCA should not be used for CAS.

I am aware that some countries have used the MiG-21 for CAS (the Russians use the Sukhoi-25). When did India use the Mirage-2000 for CAS? Could yo please share the specifics of a few missions?

These are not dedicated ground attack fighters but multi-role in nature, This leads to design trade off which gives it capability of conducting CAS but not a fully fledged CAS aircraft ..

• A multi-role aircraft can perform multiple roles. CAS is not one of the roles as far as LCA is concerned.
• There is no design trade-off in the LCA between its stated objective and CAS whatsoever. It was designed from the outset as an interceptor and has the potential of being a strike aircraft.

This debate is several years old. I don't have time to repeat what has been repeated already. I recommend read the posts by P2P from years ago, if you can ignore his personal attacks.

P.S.: If I get time, I will open a thread on the fundamentals of aviation.

 

[darshan978]

It's real=>

https://defenceupdate.in/hal-begins-integration-mid-air-refueling-probe-lca-tejas/amp/

http://idrw.org/pics-lca-tejas-with-aerial-refueling-probe/

So there are 2 tejas with ifr?

 

[tharun]

India can afford a dedicated CAS aircraft. LCA should not be used for CAS.

For close air support we can use modified trainer Hawk it has the same speed of the Su-25 and A-10 thunderbolt.
Though hawk is small compared to them we can increase the size and our own CAS is ready and we can not bother about the mig's retirement.
Hawk is 12.4 meters in length and has two seats for student and instructor,other had 15-16 metets.
We can reduce hawk to one seat and increase the length to 15-16 meters, so does increase in the wing spam,fuel capacity and payload capacity.
Otherwise simply go to Yak-130

 

[MrPresident]

For close air support we can use modified trainer Hawk it has the same speed of the Su-25 and A-10 thunderbolt.
Though hawk is small compared to them we can increase the size and our own CAS is ready and we can not bother about the mig's retirement.
Hawk is 12.4 meters in length and has two seats for student and instructor,other had 15-16 metets.
We can reduce hawk to one seat and increase the length to 15-16 meters, so does increase in the wing spam,fuel capacity and payload capacity.
Otherwise simply go to Yak-130

I am no expert, but i think ideal CAS aircraft are the ones which can withstand some punishment like rugged A-10. Hawk and YAK are trainers. I remember watching a documentary on it where the aircraft has returned to base with one wing missing.

 

[tharun]

I am no expert, but i think ideal CAS aircraft are the ones which can withstand some punishment like rugged A-10. Hawk and YAK are trainers. I remember watching a documentary on it where the aircraft has returned to base with one wing missing.

Yes hawk and yak are trainers when you increase the length automatically the plane will get enough rigidity to withstand.

 

[Kay]

Neither MiG-21 nor Mirage-2000 are CAS aircraft. Whether they took part in CAS or not is irrelevant.

India can afford a dedicated CAS aircraft. LCA should not be used for CAS.

I am aware that some countries have used the MiG-21 for CAS (the Russians use the Sukhoi-25). When did India use the Mirage-2000 for CAS? Could yo please share the specifics of a few missions?

• A multi-role aircraft can perform multiple roles. CAS is not one of the roles as far as LCA is concerned.
• There is no design trade-off in the LCA between its stated objective and CAS whatsoever. It was designed from the outset as an interceptor and has the potential of being a strike aircraft.

This debate is several years old. I don't have time to repeat what has been repeated already. I recommend read the posts by P2P from years ago, if you can ignore his personal attacks.

P.S.: If I get time, I will open a thread on the fundamentals of aviation.

The proliferation of manpads in modern battlefield has made the CAS role difficult for aircrafts. Modern manpads like Verba are increasingly using more sensors making them difficult to counter. A-10 and Su-25 won't be replaced until they be become completely obsolete.
Future of CAS is likely to be drones and artillery. Against less advanced enemies, light attack aircrafts (mostly propeller aircrafts) are going to be used.

 

[WolfPack86]

It is good news that tejas will conduct air to air refuelling in early 2018. Tejas is only answer for arresting Indian air force falling squardon strength. I hope hal will finish Tejas FOC with in given time.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

During operation Safad Sagar, IAF Mirages provided close air support by conducted raids on tiger hill with precision guided bombs to destroy enemy bunkers, In similar way Tejas are tested with PGMs like LGB and certified to use it for CAS role ..

When did India use the Mirage-2000 for CAS? Could yo please share the specifics of a few missions?.

 

[Sancho]

So there are 2 tejas with ifr?

I remember a 3rd one too, but if I'm not wrong that was just a mock up.

 

[Sancho]

During operation Safad Sagar, IAF Mirages provided close air support by conducted raids on tiger hill with precision guided bombs to destroy enemy bunkers, In similar way Tejas are tested with PGMs like LGB and certified to use it for CAS role ..

=>

A typical bombing mission would involve 4 Mirages from 7 Squadron loaded with dumb bombs leaving a base in Punjab together with a two seat Mirage loaded with a LGB and Laser Designating pod. This 5 ship would rendezvous with 3 aircraft of 1 Squadron carrying Beyond Visual Range Weapons (Super 530D), operating out of another base. This rendezvous point would change on a mission to mission basis and once joined up, one escort aircraft would return. Once over Jammu and Kashmir they would be joined by Mig29’s giving top cover. These only had 20-minute duration in the area and would usually be supplemented by another pair. Over the target the Mirages with the dumb bombs would visually acquire the target and drop their bombs. The two seater, which would be filming the whole affair from behind, would only use the LGB if required to do so

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/1056-PCamp.html

Mirage 2000 CAS config back then with 2 x 1000lb LGBs

LCA CAS configs today with 2 x 1000lb LGBs

With 2 x 500lb LGBs

French Mirage 2000 in CAS config during Libyan war with 2 x 500lb LGBs

UAE Mirage 2000 in CAS config with Hakim PGM during Libyan war, as well as in Yemen now

There should be no doubt about CAS capability of delta wing fighters, let alone of LCA Tejas.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That`s the reason we have AURA and Kaveri`s spinoff for that project ..

But this is about the future, lets focus on Tejas present development and news ..

In coming times all the CAS role will be taken over by UAV's...

You have to differentiate the possible war scenarios though. India doesn't have the luxury, to fight Taliban or IS with minimal surface to air capabilities. We are fighting 2 fully fledged military forces and can't simply send a slow drone, or an armed trainer to attack enemy ground forces, because they would be shot down easily. Kargil has shown, how difficult it is even against ground forces with manpads and no air cover and we suffered losses because of that. So CAS in the Indian scenario always needs to be based on aircrafts with good survivability against ground or air threats, which is why only fighters or stealth drones will have importance.

 

[pmaitra]

During operation Safad Sagar, IAF Mirages provided close air support by conducted raids on tiger hill with precision guided bombs to destroy enemy bunkers, In similar way Tejas are tested with PGMs like LGB and certified to use it for CAS role ..

Could you please provide the details of the mission? I assume it is not classified. I wish to get details about the mission, possibly a description of flight path, speed, altitude. If it is classified, we won't know much from it.

 

[sthf]

Let's get a couple of things straight.

1) CAS is a mission not a platform.
2) Not every bomb run is CAS.

The poster child of American led internet age for CAS is A-10. So the "Brrrrt" fanboys effectively muddied the waters between mission and platform. One false equivalence that often pops up in these discussions is the case of Su-25. Difference is that Su-25 is twice as fast as A-10 and uses unguided rockets and missiles as primary weapons not cannon.

Following is a breakdown of CAS in highly permissive environments of Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.

Even in the best case scenario, A-10, a much touted slow, low and armoured CAS platform conducted just 1/4th of the CAS missions and would have been swatted like flies had they faced a decent air force and air defence. India is never going to get this kind of playing field.

Moving onto the second point, the bright spot of Operation Safed Sagar was not the CAS but air-interdiction. Most of the battlefield support was conducted by arty not IAF. Ashley Tellis wrote a detailed account of IAF's role in Kargil. IAF wasn't in a position for conducting CAS because the terrain and the altitude didn't allow them to be. IAF did what it could that is, creating avalanches over climbing routes, using visuals and sonic booms to intimidate the enemy and above all blow up Munto Dhalo camp. LCA is perfectly capable of achieving that and more.

“You could put us in a Cessna 172 with an AK-47 and we’d go fly CAS,” said one F-15E pilot. Standard procedure, he says, is to have CAS aircraft—not just A-10s—on alert. When a “troops in contact” (meaning friendlies in a firefight need air support) call comes in, entire support crews line up to ensure the sortie takes off quickly, and they salute the pilots as they taxi—a sign of support for the mission to assist soldiers in peril.

In talking with eight pilots at different bases—all of whom performed CAS missions—they universally said that CAS is not about the platform, it is about the training. Ground-based airmen—aka Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTAC)—tasked with calling in a strike, agree. “At the end of the day, the tactics are taught to work with any platform,” said one JTAC among the team at Nellis AFB, Nevada, Weapons School who is charged with developing tactics. The JTACs and pilots of various aircraft— F16s, F-15Es, A-10s, B-1s and B-52s—are trained to employ a variety of weapons in myriad weather and topographical conditions. This includes the now widespread use of precision-guided munitions and, when needed, cannons.

http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/usaf-eyes-new-era-close-air-support

As for dedicated CAS platform for IAF, there was never any need. IAF is however mulling over upgrading Hawks for such missions. Atleast this what Shiv Aroor is selling.

“By no means is the Hawk a fighter, but when you need to throw all of your assets up in the air, this is a great fit,” an MBDA official said.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09/iaf-wants-brimstone-asraam-on-its-hawk-trainers.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Mirage 2000 in Kargil

The Mirage 2000 were supplied with Thomson-CSF Laser Designator Pod, known as ‘ATLIS’ which was capable of delivery of Matra 1000 kg LGBs, which were purpose built for destruction of reinforced targets. These weapons were highly capable but were very expensive. It was decided to augment their capability by adding the 1000 lb bomb coupled with Paveway II laser-guided bomb kit. The IAF had ordered a number of these, but they had been supplied with an incorrect part. Because of the nuclear test performed by India, they were on the embargo list and were unable to get the correct parts sent as replacements. Consequently IAF technicians had to re-manufacture this part in order to make the Paveway serviceable for use on the Mirage.

Enough equipment was found to make twelve aircraft at any given time, capable of delivering bombs. However bombs were not readily available to suit, so a search was made of the IAF Inventory. Vintage 250kg bombs from the 1970’s that were made in Spain for the HAL Ajeet aircraft and had been in storage were found and made available. A one off trial was carried out from Jaisalmer over the Porkoran Range on the 1st June and was deemed to be successful. They were immediately rushed into service with the Mirages of 7 Squadron.

Notable amongst 7 Squadrons approximate 200 plus attack missions were the airstrikes on Muntho Dhalo, Tiger Hill and Point 4388 in the Drass Sector. On the 16th June, the major enemy supply depot at Muntho Dhalo in the Batalik Sector was sighted by a Mirage on the LDP. The following day this was hit and destroyed by aircraft from 7 Squadron using dumb bombs. This camp was the major re-supply base in the Batalik Sector and this devastating attack left over 100 dead and 50 structures destroyed.

On June 24th, the Enemy Battalion HQ on Tiger Hill top was hit by two Mirage 2000 employing the ‘PAVEWAY’ Laser Guided Bomb (LGB). This was the first operational use on an LGB by the IAF. In another mission on the same day Mirages stuck the same target using dumb bombs. This strike proved to be particularly effective causing severe damage to the enemy. It also gave Indian Army Troops watching from nearby a tremendous morale boost.

On the 30th May, IAF HQ decided to commit the aircraft, which had already moved to forward operating location in their air defence role, to the offensive. Now the work of the back room staff and pilots was to intensify greatly. The status as of early June was that aircraft, pilots and technicians were spread around at Western Air Command bases and Gwalior. The Mirage 2000 aircraft itself had always been regarded as an air defence fighter with a limited ground attack capability. Consequently it lacked certain resources such as bombs, hardpoint pylons, tooling, testers and ground crew experience in such matters. A big push was instigated at Gwalior to get the platform prepared. By the 12th June, the IAF Personnel had ironed out most of the faults.

Source : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/1056-PCamp.html

Could you please provide the details of the mission? I assume it is not classified. I wish to get details about the mission, possibly a description of flight path, speed, altitude. If it is classified, we won't know much from it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Attack on Tiger Hill

Written by Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar – Deputy Chief of Staff of IAF

Act of bravery by the ace Tejas test pilot, the second one to have flown Tejas after Wg Cdr R Kothiyal, here we present Air Marshal R Nambiar's own experience on recapturing Tiger Hill during the famous Kargil war.
We are fortunate to have him in our roll of honour as Test Pilots. ( Tejas - LCA at FB )

On the 24 of June 1999 the Indian Air Force dropped its first LGB in anger. The release was from a Mirage 2000 and I was privileged to have been the pilot in command. In the days that followed I was honoured to drop four more LGBs, thus dropping 5 out of the total of 8 LGBs delivered by the Mirage 2000 in the Kargil Conflict. This is my story.

On the evening of 22 June we were tasked to attack Tiger Hill with LGBs the next morning. I was selected to captain a two seater with Sqn Ldr Monish Yadav as my back seater. The target was a set of enemy tents perched at the top. We got airborne in a two aircraft formation at 0630h and set course after take-off in a North Easterly direction to RV with two Mirages from Tiger Sqn, which was operating from Ambala. The join up was uneventful and we maintained R/T silence as we winged our way to the target.

Tiger Hill is unique in shape and size when viewed from the ground. But from 30,000 ft up it is indistinguishable from the other tall peaks in the vicinity. The only mountain that stands out in this grand vista is K2, Mount Godwin-Austen, which at 28, 2510 ft towers over its surroundings. The aids on board the Mirage allowed us to spot Tiger Hill with relative ease.

We had it in contact by 50 km and were unpleasantly surprised to find a tiny cloud perched right on its tip obscuring the DMPI and rendering the LGB impotent. The endurance of the Mirage allowed us to hold on station for about 30 min, so we went around three more times hoping the cloud would drift away and we could complete our mission. In the fourth attempt, as we turned away from the target, Monish yelled at me to “flare left” indicating a missile launch. I instantly throttled back to idle power and hauled the aircraft upward in a steep left turn and commenced dropping flares. I did not spot the tiny shoulder launched missile, but Monish did see it climb towards us and thereafter fall away as we were outside its envelope. We had no choice but to go back with our armament load and prepare for a reshoot the next day.

Full article here : http://vsktelangana.org/the-attack-on-tiger-hill/

 

[tejas warrior]

I was making a note on exact date for first flight for Tejas.

SP8:
SP7:
SP5:
SP6: 30 June 2017
SP4: 03 Mar 2017
SP3: 28 Sep 2016
SP2: 22 Mar 2016
SP1: Jan 2015

Can someone please help me to find out exact date of first flight of SP1.