ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[gogbot]

which fighters are currently using the F404 engines around the world?

It was used by the Saab Gripen Jas 39 before being upgraded to the GE-414 in the Gripen NG .

It was used in Twin configuration on the F/A-18 Hornet

It is used on the experimental Grumman X-29

The ST Aerospace A-4SU Super Skyhawk , also uses the engine

Also used on the Northrop F-20 Tigershark

U.S.-German Rockwell-Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm X-31 Enhanced Fighter Maneuverability program

And Last

Modified versions were also used in twin configuration on the F-117 Nighthawk.

 

[rakesh]

Tejas Test pilots from NFTC capture modern philosophies of IAF's frontline squadrons; all efforts to give Tejas the best pilot-vehicle interface, says ADA boss P.S.

Test pilots from India's National Flight Test Centre (NFTC), a crucial unit aiding the development of India's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), are on a mission to familiarize themselves with the modern philosophies of Indian Air Force (IAF) squadrons. This, they feel, will benefit the LCA project, which is nearing its initial operational clearance (IOC) phase.
Program director for combat aircraft and Aeronautical Development Agency Director P.S. Subramanyam tells AVIATION WEEK that the NFTC team should gain enough expertise from the current mission to give Tejas the best pilot-vehicle interface.
"Our pilots and other experts from NFTC are trying to consolidate from all the available aircraft so as to make Tejas the best flying platform," Subramanyam says.
"The current familiarization mission will give the test pilots the feel of the latest technologies in some of the frontline aircraft," an IAF official says. "Tejas will have to eventually fly along with Su-30 MKIs, Mirages and the MiG 29s. The team will update themselves with the latest philosophies and compatibility in a combat environment."

 

[nitesh]

from the above:

LCA Pilots Capture Modern IAF Squadron Philosophies | AVIATION WEEK

ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), which developed Tejas, is preparing the limited series production (LSP-5) aircraft for its first flight in the next two or three weeks.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

can anyone tell me how many lsp tejas will be produced before it finally acheives FOC.there is no way the iaf is going to induct tejas in large no., so what is the neccesity of producing so many lsps.i think instead of tajas mk2 drdo should consider to modify tejas into an ucav for the air force by 2015 instead of starting for a new airframe for aura.

 

[abirbec04]

There would be 7 LSPs as far as Tejas is concerned as is revealed by Air Marshal P.K. Barbora.

Vice Chief of IAF Air Marshal P.K. Barbora told AVIATION WEEK that the first flight of LSP-4 is "one step forward" in the project.

"As you move along in a program, you will overcome problems quickly. Now the LSP-5, 6 and 7 will come," he said. "It's a proud moment and we are also keenly awaiting the arrival of LCA Mk-II in the years to come, which will be an advanced platform."

This was reported on June 2, 2010 Aviation week.

 

[neo29]

Final Certification Process For Indian LCA Underway

The final certification process for Tejas, India's Light Combat Aircraft, has begun ahead of its crucial initial operational clearance (IOC), program official P.S. Subramanyam tells AVIATION WEEK.

The certification process is being conducted by a team headed by K. Tamilmani, chief executive at the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac). It is one of the most significant developments in the last nine and a half years of the program. The first prototype of the Tejas initial technology demonstrator made its first flight on Jan. 4, 2001.

"The certification mainly ensures that the user [the Indian Air Force] will be handed over a safe, mature and reliable aircraft with specified performance," says Subramanyam, who is program director for combat aircraft and director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). "Cemilac has given a clear road map segmenting two major steps—equipment and system certifications. The process was started a month ago."

More than 300 engineers from ADA, Cemilac, the Defense Research and Development Organization, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., the National Aerospace Laboratories and other program partners are working in tandem to ensure that Tejas enters the much-awaited IOC by December 2010.

"There's excitement in the air," Subramanyam says. "We are ensuring that everything goes as per the script—be it the tests on the ground, on the aircraft and while [in the] air. The Tejas certification mission is in full throttle."

For its part, Cemilac has been updated with all the test schedules. "All operational equipment needs to be certified," Tamilmani says. "We look at the reliability of all systems . . . especially in the flight-control systems. Tejas has four levels of redundancy stages for its flight-control computer."

Tamilmani says Tejas has proved itself as a safe platform, and the Cemilac team interacts very closely with the users conducting the airworthiness certification.

"The envelope for IOC is frozen and we are working very closely with the [Indian Air Force] program management team at ADA and with other partners," Tamilmani adds.

Final Certification Process For Indian LCA Underway

 

[vijay jagannathan]

1. Tejas mark 1 flight envelope should be fully expanded and the results of its optimal performance must be shared with the public.

2. Tejas Mark 2 should be fast tracked and all short comings in Mark 1 should be addressed in mark 2 to make it 4.5 generation including airframe changes of design and air intakes and of course the Radar engine etc.

3. What maximum possible performance can be achieved with minor tinkering in mark 1 has to be done at the quickest possible time and mark2 development should proceed in parallel.

4. It is clear now that Mark 1 in its present form just about qualifies to be a 4 th generation( no mean acheivement after a 2 geneartion leap) but is let down by weight, air intake design and thrust issues.

 

[Tshering22]

1. Tejas mark 1 flight envelope should be fully expanded and the results of its optimal performance must be shared with the public.

2. Tejas Mark 2 should be fast tracked and all short comings in Mark 1 should be addressed in mark 2 to make it 4.5 generation including airframe changes of design and air intakes and of course the Radar engine etc.

3. What maximum possible performance can be achieved with minor tinkering in mark 1 has to be done at the quickest possible time and mark2 development should proceed in parallel.

4. It is clear now that Mark 1 in its present form just about qualifies to be a 4 th generation( no mean acheivement after a 2 geneartion leap) but is let down by weight, air intake design and thrust issues.

Vijay, all your points are perfectly correct and interconnected. Even though I am not an engineer, I've been going through some aero 1 and am surprised on how ADA in their obsession to make it compact didn't make the intakes rhombus shaped and larger as we can see in Gripen. What is the cause of extra weight is also not revealed to the public despite most of the structure being made of carbon composites. IMO, it would have been better if Tejas Mk1 had been designed a bit more "thinner" and "stretched" so as to ease airframe density. Also. that would mean an increase in wing size and area and larger intakes for more air as well as a more powerful engine.

 

[nitesh]

1. Tejas mark 1 flight envelope should be fully expanded and the results of its optimal performance must be shared with the public.

2. Tejas Mark 2 should be fast tracked and all short comings in Mark 1 should be addressed in mark 2 to make it 4.5 generation including airframe changes of design and air intakes and of course the Radar engine etc.

3. What maximum possible performance can be achieved with minor tinkering in mark 1 has to be done at the quickest possible time and mark2 development should proceed in parallel.

4. It is clear now that Mark 1 in its present form just about qualifies to be a 4 th generation( no mean acheivement after a 2 geneartion leap) but is let down by weight, air intake design and thrust issues.

I am curious to know how you reached these conclusions. please do provide links to support your claims

 

[nitesh]

Vijay, all your points are perfectly correct and interconnected. Even though I am not an engineer, I've been going through some aero 1 and am surprised on how ADA in their obsession to make it compact didn't make the intakes rhombus shaped and larger as we can see in Gripen. What is the cause of extra weight is also not revealed to the public despite most of the structure being made of carbon composites. IMO, it would have been better if Tejas Mk1 had been designed a bit more "thinner" and "stretched" so as to ease airframe density. Also. that would mean an increase in wing size and area and larger intakes for more air as well as a more powerful engine.

By reading these comments it really feels that you people are the only ones qualified to design aircrafts, the ADA guys seems to be getting salaries for free.

 

[Daredevil]

Vijay, all your points are perfectly correct and interconnected. Even though I am not an engineer, I've been going through some aero 1 and am surprised on how ADA in their obsession to make it compact didn't make the intakes rhombus shaped and larger as we can see in Gripen. What is the cause of extra weight is also not revealed to the public despite most of the structure being made of carbon composites. IMO, it would have been better if Tejas Mk1 had been designed a bit more "thinner" and "stretched" so as to ease airframe density. Also. that would mean an increase in wing size and area and larger intakes for more air as well as a more powerful engine.

I don't understand the obsession with rhomboid shape air-intakes. The air-intakes on LCA are optimized to deliver air pressure required for the generation of thrust that is needed to run the aircraft. If air-intakes are made larger, it will deliver much large air-pressures that is not required by the engine and leads to sub-optimal functioning. The present air-intake design is perfect for to deliver the thrust that is required.

LCA has one of the lowest wing loading weight among its class making it more maneuverable. So, asking for the "thinner" and "stretched" air frame is a straw man. Let me tell you there is also a need of strong but also a optimally strong aero-dynamic structure which can with stand high pressures and take-off weights and we will lose such advantages by making it thinner and stretched.

I have never heard about this extra weight issues about LCA. Any extra-weight issue can be taken care in future tranches and also by using more powerful engine.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tejas mk-2 development

The LCA Mark 2 will have a bigger and more powerful engine, the fuselage will be changed, it will have bigger wings, and the aircraft will be more aerodynamic," says Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Baweja, whose company manufactures the fighter.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ca-mark-2.html

And a blog:

Sources close to idrw.org have informed that Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is currently working on two different design variant for Tejas MK-2, while major changes in both the design are wings position in terms of alignment to make the aircraft more aero dynamic and also to reduce drag, Tejas MK-2 will also have design changes to its fuselage and will have a bigger wing to carry heaver payload, Tejas Mk-2 will also be able to carry more internal fuel due to improvement in fuselage design and wing.

Engine update:
Final negotiations for purchase of new engines for Tejas MK-2 has begun and decision will be soon made public, while both engine manufactures have promised that their engine will easily be integrated with Tejas MK-2 airframe ,but both have asked for 2 years to make some minor changes to the engines and have already provided details regarding this to ADA and HAL , changes mostly likely be change in position of gear box and other pipe systems , once contract is signed modified engines will be delivered by 2012 year end or 2013 and integration into airframe might take place by 2013 year end and first flight might take place by 2014 year end or early 2015 .

http://indiandefencedirectory.blogsp...k-2update.html

July 26, 2009, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has issued a RFP for the supply of 99 engines with thrust in the 95-100 KN to power Tejas LCA Mk 2, which the agency hopes will fly in 2014.

The RFP is being sent to just two contenders: General Electric (GE) for the F414 engine and Eurojet for the EJ200 engine. They are required to submit their proposals by October 12.

The RFP indicates an initial procurement of 99 engines with an optional follow-up up for 49 more. The initial batch of engines will be procured directly from the manufacturer with the rest being assembled at HAL

Recently, the IAF even made a few suggestions on improvements in Tejas Mk2, including a more powerful engine, optimisation of the aerodynamic qualities and weight of the aircraft and "dropping and replacing" certain parts to take care of obsolescence.

Tejas Mk2 will take a few years to fructify, the biggest challenge being choosing a new powerful engine. In December, the ADA is expected to issue a request for proposal to General Electric for its GE F414 and to the European consortium Eurojet for EJ200, in a bid to procure 99 engines (with an option to buy another 49).

Once the engine is chosen, fuselage modifications will have to be carried out, flight tests started and evaluation undertaken. All trainer aircraft even after Tejas Mk2 rolls out will continue to have the present GE F404 engines.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/05/stor...0556261400.htm

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is yet to become operational. Being a development project, it needed to incorporate a number of new technologies and systems. The schedule date for initial operational clearance is December, 2010. The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has received an order from the Indian Air Force for supply of 20 such aircraft. The supply is planned to commence from 2011-2012 and is likely to be completed by 2013-2014.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=63586

Thanks to Loke2 & wild goose....

 

[gogbot]

I don't understand the obsession with rhomboid shape air-intakes. The air-intakes on LCA are optimized to deliver air pressure required for the generation of thrust that is needed to run the aircraft. If air-intakes are made larger, it will deliver much large air-pressures that is not required by the engine and leads to sub-optimal functioning. The present air-intake design is perfect for to deliver the thrust that is required.

The LCA has a low alpha and part of that has been attributed to poorly designed Air intakes

I have never heard about this extra weight issues about LCA. Any extra-weight issue can be taken care in future tranches and also by using more powerful engine.

That's just the Engine not being powerful enough for the wight , at least according to the IAF , Some ill-informed journalist probably understood this as weight issue.

 

[nitesh]

The high alpha issue is also a highly mis advertised issue. The problem with ADA is they don't have sufficient skills to test the flight envelop. That's why EADS have been taken as consultant regarding that. The high alpha will be tested as the flight envelop will be expanded for FOC

 

[Daredevil]

The LCA has a low alpha and part of that has been attributed to poorly designed Air intakes
.

I followed this debate on many forums and the verdict based on the available information is there is no problem with air intakes of LCA. As nitesh said, it is a disinformation without any basis.

 

[ashish3640]

Insted of pushing for induction HAL and ADA should put some more effort and try hard to rectify problems don't you think so.

 

[Daredevil]

Insted of pushing for induction HAL and ADA should put some more effort and try hard to rectify problems don't you think so.

What problem? Can you specify.

LCA in current form is little bit underpowered and doesn't have an AESA. Rightnow, LCA meets IAFs requirements as much as possible. So, there is no point in waiting for an high-powered engine and AESA as they will take at least 5 years time. In the mean time, HAL can start manufacturing LCA Mark I as it will establish the manufacturing lines, quality control systems, time lines etc which will come in handy when LCA Mark II will be manufactured.

 

[gogbot]

The high alpha issue is also a highly mis advertised issue. The problem with ADA is they don't have sufficient skills to test the flight envelop. That's why EADS have been taken as consultant regarding that. The high alpha will be tested as the flight envelop will be expanded for FOC

I followed this debate on many forums and the verdict based on the available information is there is no problem with air intakes of LCA. As nitesh said, it is a disinformation without any basis.

Well we all know The Tejas has an Alpha that can be improved upon.
In it's current form the Alpha is only satisfactory , in comparison to other aircraft it is low.

Now ADA want's to improve the Alpha , Which is the only real problem on the aircraft that we know of.

Testing times ahead for HAL

The Tejas has currently tested an Alpha of just 22-24 degrees, and will go up gradually to 28 degrees. But flying a higher Alpha risks stalling the fighter; no fighter engine should flame out at just 28 degrees Alpha. However, the Tejas air intakes have not been well designed and, as the Alpha increases, the intakes constrict the airflow, and the engine dies for want of air."

This is the info i am going on.

An older bit of Info said this

The wing-shielded, side-mounted bifurcated, fixed-geometry Y-duct air intakes have an optimized diverter configuration to ensure buzz-free air supply to the engine at acceptable distortion levels, even at high AoA.

I don't know which one is accurate.

Well also not that this is definitive proof or a pillar of my argument
It probably is not even very accurate

Admitted a faster engine and the production model can perform much better.

 

[Daredevil]

Well we all know The Tejas has an Alpha that can be improved upon.
In it's current form the Alpha is only satisfactory , in comparison to other aircraft it is low.

Now ADA want's to improve the Alpha , Which is the only real problem on the aircraft that we know of.

Testing times ahead for HAL

This is the info i am going on.

Well, that was Ajai Shukla's layman observation by no means an official statement or a inside source's information. LCA has higher critical alpha by the virtue of it being a delta-winged air-craft as it gives better lift. There are also other air-crafts such as Mirage-2000 with same shaped air-intakes and have no problem of stalling at high alphas.

See this video of LCA-Tejas where it does a vertical loop (from 0.2 min). And there is no problem of stalling at all.

 

[Agantrope]

Gogbot, well you are arguing about the Air-take intake affecting the Alpha.

But for a rectangular air-intake we need a large amount of experience for that to get achieved.

Rafale

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=31451

Rafale

9 g/-3.6 g, 32° maximum angle of attack,

Super Hornet Vs Hornet Air Intake

EF2000

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Structure

Eurofighter is a pitch unstable, delta-canard tail-less design with a 53° leading edge sweepback on the main wing.

It really takes years of expertise to build a aircraft with the rectangular intake. SAAB and Lockheed Martin, Boeing havent done in overnight over half century of Flight building is there. India was denied many technologies and may take time to develop one.