ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Chinmoy]

The SP being delivered till now 3 were not on schedule from the very beginning.
So saying that 4th one is on schedule cannot be true.

FOC is delayed due to all the parties involved and i agree that IAF may come up with one thing or another just to stall the FOC.

When I asked about HAL I meant from the point of view of upgraded Tejas only.

From the very first with current production facility, HAL could have come out with rate of 1 LCA per 3 month. So in that matter they are right on schedule with a single production line.

Upgraded Tejas would only come out after 20 IOC standard and 20 FOC standard Tejas delivered. So give or take it would be by 2021 only. Work is on progress with RADAR. Moreover HAL is also working on NLCA.

 

[Pulkit]

Did you just came to rant about it!!

Orders for LCA are secured. Squadron has been raised already. Yes there are delays but the program is secured already.

oh No mate .... ranting about Tejas not at all..... I belong to the Tejas Brigrade (what they used to call us earlier by the pro rafale Squad)...

LCA Orders secured Ok.... When are we getting them and when are the needed????
If everything goes as per the time line.....

4+8+8+8 that means 28 Tejas by 2020 if everthing is on track and 2026-28 all delivered.

How many squadrons after filling the lost jets and retired ones will again come up to be 32-33 by 2026 .... FGFA TEJAS RAFALE all together also will not be able to bring the count to the much needed 42-45.


So no ranting its just anger about why are the lingering it when even they know we need it.... Or IAF just wants another Foran Jahaaaj

 

[Pulkit]

From the very first with current production facility, HAL could have come out with rate of 1 LCA per 3 month. So in that matter they are right on schedule with a single production line.

Rate of 1 LCA per 3 months is not equally what it interprets literally.
On a single line the first aircraft may take 6 months to be delivered but then it has to be 1 aircraft every month thats the basic concept of manufacturing line...

but what they are doing it delivering aircraft after the term they had decided for the very first aircraft.

Upgraded Tejas would only come out after 20 IOC standard and 20 FOC standard Tejas delivered. So give or take it would be by 2021 only. Work is on progress with RADAR. Moreover HAL is also working on NLCA.

lets evaluate the time line here...
2016-2017(till march): 4 aircraft's
2017-2018(till march): 8 aircraft's
2018-2019(till march): 8 aircraft's
2019-2020(till march): 8 aircraft's
2020-2021(till march): 8 aircraft's
That comes out to be 36 aircraft's still 4 less than the numbers expected and here i am assuming no delays(HAL ADA just cannot function without delays) so 2021 is highly optimistic.
As there gonna be few major Differences between the IOC FOC and Upgraded Variants I doubt them achieving rate of 8 per years anytime before 2024 so dream of producing one squadron per year will remain a dream for ever.

They are just killing a beautiful bird.

 

[IndianHawk]

4+8+8+8 that means 28 Tejas by 2020 if everthing is on track and 2026-28 all delivered.

There is an induction plan graph of which must be somewhere in previous pages.
It gets faster.

https://goo.gl/images/DByVt7
We are all disappointed by the speed of it .
It's just that now repeating the same story over and over feels a bit tiring.

FGFA TEJAS RAFALE all together also will not be able to bring the count to the much needed 42-45.

They have already started process to induct another single engine fighter to fill the numbers.

At this point we can only celebrate the fact that lca survived both iaf and hal and made into the combating ranks and we should look forward to what's its derivatives can achieve.

 

[Pulkit]

There is an induction plan graph of which must be somewhere in previous pages.
It gets faster.

https://goo.gl/images/DByVt7
We are all disappointed by the speed of it .
It's just that now repeating the same story over and over feels a bit tiring.



They have already started process to induct another single engine fighter to fill the numbers.

At this point we can only celebrate the fact that lca survived both iaf and hal and made into the combating ranks and we should look forward to what's its derivatives can achieve.

yes I know its the same thing repeated time and again...
We all are sad and disappointing ....

yes another single Engine aircraft .... IAF is going for a toss here.... Maintainance is really gonna be killing them later...

No interchangeability No common vendor/supplier individual maintenance staff and workshop.


I seriously do not understand Why they Do not Trust Tejas....??

ADA HAL are not trustworthy but given the History of Tejas it is a great and reliable bird......

I again Say IAF is gonna kill Tejas....So its not a good time to be happy....there are many hurdles ahead....

 

[Defcon 1]

Rate of 1 LCA per 3 months is not equally what it interprets literally.
On a single line the first aircraft may take 6 months to be delivered but then it has to be 1 aircraft every month thats the basic concept of manufacturing line...

but what they are doing it delivering aircraft after the term they had decided for the very first aircraft.



lets evaluate the time line here...
2016-2017(till march): 4 aircraft's
2017-2018(till march): 8 aircraft's
2018-2019(till march): 8 aircraft's
2019-2020(till march): 8 aircraft's
2020-2021(till march): 8 aircraft's
That comes out to be 36 aircraft's still 4 less than the numbers expected and here i am assuming no delays(HAL ADA just cannot function without delays) so 2021 is highly optimistic.
As there gonna be few major Differences between the IOC FOC and Upgraded Variants I doubt them achieving rate of 8 per years anytime before 2024 so dream of producing one squadron per year will remain a dream for ever.

They are just killing a beautiful bird.

Producing one squadron per year will never be possible even with the planned new production line. That is just another one of Parrikar's rants.

The current and future production rate are comparable to production rate fighters worldwide except US. Also, it doesn't make sense to increase the production with the current number of orders. Any increase in production rate would have to be accompanied by significant increase in orders by IAF/export customers.

 

[IndianHawk]

Just found this funny isn't it

Err wrong thread sorry folks

 

[Chinmoy]

Rate of 1 LCA per 3 months is not equally what it interprets literally.
On a single line the first aircraft may take 6 months to be delivered but then it has to be 1 aircraft every month thats the basic concept of manufacturing line...

but what they are doing it delivering aircraft after the term they had decided for the very first aircraft.



lets evaluate the time line here...
2016-2017(till march): 4 aircraft's
2017-2018(till march): 8 aircraft's
2018-2019(till march): 8 aircraft's
2019-2020(till march): 8 aircraft's
2020-2021(till march): 8 aircraft's
That comes out to be 36 aircraft's still 4 less than the numbers expected and here i am assuming no delays(HAL ADA just cannot function without delays) so 2021 is highly optimistic.
As there gonna be few major Differences between the IOC FOC and Upgraded Variants I doubt them achieving rate of 8 per years anytime before 2024 so dream of producing one squadron per year will remain a dream for ever.

They are just killing a beautiful bird.

First of all sorry for missing out the exact words. Its assembly line rather then production line. With an advanced assembly line like that of LM, its one aircraft per two month. Now assembly line doesn't mean production of each and every assembly and sub assembly. It means the integration of the whole system and sub system. After roll out it takes another 3 to 4 months for AT completion. Means the induction rate is 2 aircraft per year against roll out rate of 4 aircraft per year. At this rate the roll out would be 8 aircraft by 2017 end and with the 2nd production line coming up in 2018, we could expect it to go up to 12. So by 2019 our first batch of 20 aircraft should come out in theory.

With any luck, if we get able to improve our rate we should be able to roll out 10 aircraft in between two assembly line by 2020. Now if we do believe DM here and as @Defcon 1 mentioned, we get some firm export order, then another couple of production/ assembly line would come up or else it would be three production/ assembly line after 2020. Now even at the current rate of 4 aircraft per year from a single assembly line, we could achieve 12 aircraft per year combining the three. So even if not 18 as DM said, we could expect atleast 12 aircraft per year or 1 aircraft per month post 2020.

 

[dude00720]

Rate of 1 LCA per 3 months is not equally what it interprets literally.
On a single line the first aircraft may take 6 months to be delivered but then it has to be 1 aircraft every month thats the basic concept of manufacturing line...

but what they are doing it delivering aircraft after the term they had decided for the very first aircraft.



lets evaluate the time line here...
2016-2017(till march): 4 aircraft's
2017-2018(till march): 8 aircraft's
2018-2019(till march): 8 aircraft's
2019-2020(till march): 8 aircraft's
2020-2021(till march): 8 aircraft's
.

Can we all cool down? The current operational capacity is 8 birds annually. With the order for the new 83 aircrafts, HAL will setup another line which will translate to 16 annually.

In Realtime scenarios, full operational capacity never happens from day 1. It makes business sense to build capacity after orders are received. That has happened.

If some of you hate Parrikar, live with it. Since, he has become defence minister, things have moved crazily. 83 orders from defence acqusition committee is huge. Not to mention foreign acquisitions like Rafale or S-400.

People who are batting for foreign aircraft. Get Smart about it. Use your brains to find a way to work with indigenous design. Convince your IAF friends of long range vision. We need to be 100% by 2050.

 

[Pulkit]

Can we all cool down? The current operational capacity is 8 birds annually. With the order for the new 83 aircrafts, HAL will setup another line which will translate to 16 annually.

In Realtime scenarios, full operational capacity never happens from day 1. It makes business sense to build capacity after orders are received. That has happened.

If some of you hate Parrikar, live with it. Since, he has become defence minister, things have moved crazily. 83 orders from defence acqusition committee is huge. Not to mention foreign acquisitions like Rafale or S-400.

People who are batting for foreign aircraft. Get Smart about it. Use your brains to find a way to work with indigenous design. Convince your IAF friends of long range vision. We need to be 100% by 2050.

Did i say anything about our DM??... No.... i fully support our DM and Our Bird Tejas and his decisions...

What My concern is ...is with IAF HAL And ADA ..... yes i agree it cannot be done in a day... but here its not been days but Months.

Give the same order to private sector and they will meet the delivery requirements.
These sarkari Babus just wanna keep there seats hot .....

 

[Pulkit]

First of all sorry for missing out the exact words. Its assembly line rather then production line. With an advanced assembly line like that of LM, its one aircraft per two month. Now assembly line doesn't mean production of each and every assembly and sub assembly. It means the integration of the whole system and sub system. After roll out it takes another 3 to 4 months for AT completion. Means the induction rate is 2 aircraft per year against roll out rate of 4 aircraft per year. At this rate the roll out would be 8 aircraft by 2017 end and with the 2nd production line coming up in 2018, we could expect it to go up to 12. So by 2019 our first batch of 20 aircraft should come out in theory.

With any luck, if we get able to improve our rate we should be able to roll out 10 aircraft in between two assembly line by 2020. Now if we do believe DM here and as @Defcon 1 mentioned, we get some firm export order, then another couple of production/ assembly line would come up or else it would be three production/ assembly line after 2020. Now even at the current rate of 4 aircraft per year from a single assembly line, we could achieve 12 aircraft per year combining the three. So even if not 18 as DM said, we could expect atleast 12 aircraft per year or 1 aircraft per month post 2020.

True..... but then by 2028 we will be only able to replace the retired or lost aircrafts.

 

[Pulkit]

Producing one squadron per year will never be possible even with the planned new production line. That is just another one of Parrikar's rants.

The current and future production rate are comparable to production rate fighters worldwide except US. Also, it doesn't make sense to increase the production with the current number of orders. Any increase in production rate would have to be accompanied by significant increase in orders by IAF/export customers.

The world is producing that many numbers per year why cannot we?

 

[Chinmoy]

True..... but then by 2028 we will be only able to replace the retired or lost aircrafts.

That's inevitable as we had sat on top of crashes and ageing fleet for almost 2 decades. But with 2 sqad of Rafale and another 6 squad of Tejas by 2025-26 we would be able to have around 39 squad. Hope FGFA and AMCA takes shape by next decade.

 

[Defcon 1]

The world is producing that many numbers per year why cannot we?

We are producing with rates comparable to the world. Rafale is being produced only at 11 per annum. LCA will be produced at 16.

 

[Pulkit]

That's inevitable as we had sat on top of crashes and ageing fleet for almost 2 decades. But with 2 sqad of Rafale and another 6 squad of Tejas by 2025-26 we would be able to have around 39 squad. Hope FGFA and AMCA takes shape by next decade.

I did not get the count...
36 Rafale + 90 Tejas Added + Few Su 30=140 Total added

migs and Jags to be replaced comprise of 15 squadrons + accidental losses and other factors come upto 240 aircrafts ..... Given few upgrads and life extensions lets call it 200 that is still 60 short .

If we get another Single Engine then :
1)From where are we paying for it?
2)Another type of aircrafts added maintenance cost and other will increase.
3)FGFA and AMCA will be hampared due to funds.
4)Trainings of pilots and being Battle ready will be impacted.
5)this has to be done before 2021 to just replace the entire lot of retired aircrafts.

No Country uses these many Aircraft types.

And given that we will only have the required number of squadrons by 2030-35 given that the development of FGFA Tejas Mk2 AMCA is on time.

 

[Pulkit]

We are producing with rates comparable to the world. Rafale is being produced only at 11 per annum. LCA will be produced at 16.

for that we both have to wait ..... I will be happy if they even reach 10 per year ..... 16 is too high to even expect from HAL

 

[Chinmoy]

I did not get the count...
36 Rafale + 90 Tejas Added + Few Su 30=140 Total added

migs and Jags to be replaced comprise of 15 squadrons + accidental losses and other factors come upto 240 aircrafts ..... Given few upgrads and life extensions lets call it 200 that is still 60 short .

If we get another Single Engine then :
1)From where are we paying for it?
2)Another type of aircrafts added maintenance cost and other will increase.
3)FGFA and AMCA will be hampared due to funds.
4)Trainings of pilots and being Battle ready will be impacted.
5)this has to be done before 2021 to just replace the entire lot of retired aircrafts.

No Country uses these many Aircraft types.

And given that we will only have the required number of squadrons by 2030-35 given that the development of FGFA Tejas Mk2 AMCA is on time.

Its 123 Tejas to be precise with 20 in IOC config, 20 FOC and 83 which were recently ordered in Mk1A config.
36 rafales means 2 squad of 18 each and 123 roughly means 6 to 7 squad, means you would have 8 to 9 squad of Tejas and Rafales alone.
Now Jag and Mig-27 would be there till 2025 in dedicated ground attack role. Mig-21 would surely be out of service by fall of next decade. Now further 50 or 70 MKI is in pipeline if I am not wrong which would make another 7 squad. But by then if we start retiring Mig-27, then we would be again down to square one if new engines are not inducted.

But by the rate at which current Govt is going, I am hopeful of it inking new deal in MMRCA to overcome this and keep AMCA and FGFA at fast track. Don't forget the couple of Mig-29 squad which would be there till 2030.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Keep this thread till Tejas ..

 

[IndianHawk]

One more thing. We need to be realistic with numbers. Our dream of 42 squadrons might remain a pipe dream.
Given
New aircrafta are very very costly. We can't afford 5th gen plane more than 100.
And 4.5 gen Rafael and tejas are way more costly than MIGs, JAG's.

Lca is much more capable than MIGs 21 or 27. It also outsmarts Jaguar and mirage.
With such qualitative advantage numbers are bound to go down as well as costs increased

Also they are multirole fighters.

So as all over the world replacing number to number is not a prudent strategy.

That being said we need to somehow maintain 34 squadrons in the midterms.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

16 per year will be started from 2019, 25 per year will be from 2021 ..

I suggest people need to keep their trolling habits else where ..